Compliance, reliance and the abuse of companionship.

[CDNBear]

Hmmm.

Okay, one thing that jumps out at me is that pointing out a flaw in logical process (saying things like 'what are you, stupid?) isn't the same as pointing out a flaw in a person. Pointing out a flaw in a person doesn't fly in most relationships. It becomes a sore spot, which, hit once may not be a huge deal but, hit repeatedly, becomes emotional abuse. Don't try to tell me that any guys would keep hanging out with someone who kept bitching at them about the same issue over and over and over again. You might not be dramatic about it, but you'd probably walk away

Oh, so when the actions of others become a hindrance on the many and begin to suck the joy and entertainment out of something, we should all just give up and either fall in line or walk away from something we enjoy?

Hell it's getting to the point in life where you can't speak without being accused of picking on someone, victimising someone etc etc.

That's censorship.

 

[karrie]

Oh, so when the actions of others become a hindrance on the many and begin to suck the joy and entertainment out of something, we should all just give up and either fall in line or walk away from something we enjoy?

Well, your example. and Dex's and your conversation discuss x and y, not so much a group dynamic. That's much stickier. Happy groups tend to max out at around 10 people, after that point there is always strife and discord.

 

[CDNBear]

Well, your example. and Dex's and your conversation discuss x and y, not so much a group dynamic. That's much stickier. Happy groups tend to max out at around 10 people, after that point there is always strife and discord.

Dex and I touched on one aspect of the greater issue.

But it has become a standard for every hard view, every grievance and every thing certain people or groups don't want to hear, to be an attack on them personally.

No, it couldn't be because the issue was raised. No, no matter what is said, no matter how vague you try and make it to save someones feelings, it's all about them, it's all about someone has to be the bad guy and someone has to be the victim.

It ends up stifling a group of people and then stagnation sets in.

 

[karrie]

It ends up stifling a group of people and then stagnation sets in.

Often caring about a group in general starts to cause stagnation.

If Dex was my father, you my uncle, Zan my mother, LGilbert my brother, and Imp my sister.... you wouldn't get a single hard view from me. I would never tell you, as a group, my firm opinion on anything. Because I would care too much about the health of the group to cause discord and imply insult.

I would resume my life as I am here in the real world... the eternal fence sitter, willing to hear opinions but not give them.

 

[CDNBear]

Often caring about a group in general starts to cause stagnation.

If Dex was my father, you my uncle, Zan my mother, LGilbert my brother, and Imp my sister.... you wouldn't get a single hard view from me. I would never tell you, as a group, my firm opinion on anything. Because I would care too much about the health of the group to cause discord and imply insult.

Why would you consider truth to be an insult?

Did you not post the truth of my passive aggressive behavior? did I not take it in the manner in which you intended?

It is in the truth that we find freedom. It is in how we accept our own foibles that we find growth. It is how we deal with the greater good that we show our colours.

I would resume my life as I am here in the real world... the eternal fence sitter, willing to hear opinions but not give them.

I think not.

 

[karrie]

I think not.

You know the net me Bear. Not the peackeeping middle child who bends herself into knots to keep everyone around me happy. This is my sanity... this is where I get to balance the neurotic person I am in the real world. If you want proof, I'll even give you hubby's cell phone number, he'll vouch to the truth of it. lol.

 

[Kreskin]

If my wife and I brought up each others faults whenever we thought of them we'd be living in different homes by now. We are who we are and in my view don't need to be constantly reminded about what someone else expects us to be. Most of the time I really don't care how many faults I have and I'm not going to be someone different, so if that's not good enough then I'm the wrong person to be with. My wife isn't interested in hearing about hers from me either.

 

[CDNBear]

If my wife and I brought up each others faults whenever we thought of them we'd be living in different homes by now. We are who we are and in my view don't need to be constantly reminded about what someone else expects us to be. Most of the time I really don't care how many faults I have and I'm not going to be someone different, so if that's not good enough then I'm the wrong person to be with. My wife isn't interested in hearing about hers from me either.

Me and SCB don't usually point out each others faults constantly, but we do have some reality checks here and there. I liked her "Your Jesus complex" insinuation against me.

But then again, we don't usually attack each other(Well verbally and non sexually that is, lol), nor do we think that every innocuous word or comment out of each others mouths are about the other or the others friends. Nor does she try and force me to acquiesce by force or coercion. All kidding aside, not even stereotypically.

 

[gerryh]

Bear....I know what your saying.....what I think is missing for those that don't seem to get it is the personal involvement. I understand why you are using the "X & Y" approach, but the nuances are getting lost.

 

[Imp]

Often caring about a group in general starts to cause stagnation.

If Dex was my father, you my uncle, Zan my mother, LGilbert my brother, and Imp my sister.... you wouldn't get a single hard view from me. I would never tell you, as a group, my firm opinion on anything. Because I would care too much about the health of the group to cause discord and imply insult.

I would resume my life as I am here in the real world... the eternal fence sitter, willing to hear opinions but not give them.

*pulls Karries hair*

When I was reading this, I flashed back to when I was about 12 yo. I was living with a big family, Richard, his wife, 3 boy and 2 girls and his mother and her husband lived there. There was never a dull moment.

Every friday night we would gather in the living room and air our grievances. The first time it ever happen I went and hide behind the couch, peeking out to watch it go down. It was some serious outing, started out talking, went to yelling then usually ended in laughter and this very weird peace between everyone.

It was healthy how they dealed with their problems. Sometimes it was with each other, other time it was a problem one of them was facing and asked everyones opinion. Needless to say they hardly ever matched, lol, so the asker was confused most the time and but manages to get a piece of advice to run with and work it.
It took me a long time to feel like I fit in enough to be able to voice my thoughts or ask my questions.

I was always the silent child mind you, never wasted words but listened and watched others carefully.I never thought what I had to say would matter so why bother. Some people were surprised when I spoke, they thought I was mute.:lol:

Anyway, One day they all looked at me and I was in the hot seat. I had alot to say to each of them that I was holding in.
It was a looong night,lol, but after I unleashed and put it all out there, it was very freeing.

One of the most valuable lessons I learned that night was that I had every right just like them, to voice my opinion and be heard, and the time to work it out the best it could be. Then after that, if there was anymore problems, it wasn't mine but who's ever decided to make it theirs.

You too, are just as important as any one else and have the right to let your voice be heard. Your thoughts and voice just might change an issue that needs changed, your words may be the deciding factor.
Never silence yourself.;-)

 

[karrie]

You too, are just as important as any one else and have the right to let your voice be heard. Your thoughts and voice just might change an issue that needs changed, your words may be the deciding factor.
Never silence yourself.;-)

I'm the type who ends up changing things, but quietly. I don't need to state an opinion, I just listen and ask the odd guiding question typically. lol.

I'm trying to be more outspoken, but it really goes against my personality.

 

[gerryh]

it's the quiet soft spoken ones ya gotta watch out for.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

If my wife and I brought up each others faults whenever we thought of them we'd be living in different homes by now. .

Aw man, much truth in that post. But they're not faults, they're character traits... :smile: My wife's not perfect and neither am I, we both know that, and we have some deeply felt differences, but we've learned how to work around them, mostly because most of them we both recognize as trivial and on balance we'd rather be with each other than without each other. I can't clean and tidy a room to her standards, and frankly I have no clue what they are and any room looks the same to me after I've cleaned it or she's cleaned it. Apparently I can't keep the kitchen organized either, even though I know where everything belongs. The stainless steel cooking pots, for instance, belong on a particular shelf, I know that, but it seems they have to be arranged in order of size, biggest on the left, smallest on the right. I can't see that it matters, I can open the cupboard doors and see them all no matter what order they're in, and easily pick out the one I need, but it seems there's a higher level of order I don't understand. But there's no issue. If she sees that I've put things away in the "wrong" order, she just moves things around, there's no bitching.

 

[tracy]

I find this is more of a problem with female friends than male ones. Maybe it's just me. I've never thought I had to agree with everything someone did or I was a bad friend, but my professional victim friend seems to feel that way. It was just one more example of how I was mean to her. I've not had that problem often fortunately. Honestly until it came up with that one particular person it had never even occured to me.

 

[CDNBear]

My wife's not perfect and neither am I,

My image of you is shattered!!!

 

[karrie]

I find this is more of a problem with female friends than male ones. Maybe it's just me. I've never thought I had to agree with everything someone did or I was a bad friend, but my professional victim friend seems to feel that way. It was just one more example of how I was mean to her. I've not had that problem often fortunately. Honestly until it came up with that one particular person it had never even occured to me.

You're right tracy. Female friends want you to wallow in their problems with you. Male friends want all problems 'fixed'. Both can be highly annoying and problematic, as we rarely want to follow the same course all the time. lol.