Catholic/Anglican United front

[lieexpsr]

You already know the position of the Church on birth control. You also know that attempting to blame the Church for the spread of AIDS is stretching the truth. Don't blame the Church because people do not wish to abstain from practices that may cause them harm.

So sanctus, you now admit that what I say is true and you even back the church's decision! And now you choose to blame the African peoples' practices for the AIDS epidemic.

You are being disingenuous when you accuse me of blaming the church for the spread of AIDS. I blame the church for no advocating the use of condoms to prevent AIDS. Do you perhaps think that the church's advice to those people on condom use is the cause of AIDS? I don't because I know that the cause of AIDS is something much bigger than that. But I do understand that the spread of AIDS can be prevented with condom use and that says that AIDS could have been prevented in many, many instances if the catholic church would change it's postion.

All others here- Go have a look at some of the sites which show dying children in Africa, due to the spread of AIDS. After you have done that you may want to come back here and talk to sanctus about it. He could be one of the few disenters amongst his peers in the catholic ministry who is fighting for change in the name of decency and humanity.

 

[sanctus]

So sanctus, you now admit that what I say is true and you even back the church's decision! And now you choose to blame the African peoples' practices for the AIDS epidemic.

ty.

I fully support the doctrines of the Church, without reservation.

 

[lieexpsr]

I wouldn't even bother replying to him Father.

Well that would suit my agenda marygaspe! It would also suit my agenda if some others who make vicious attacks of the kind shown in my signature would not talk to me either. Is that indicative of Christians marygaspe? Or is it not because I think your sanctus would not applaud it in the least. In fact I think it needs to be addressed in that individual's next confession.

 

[marygaspe]

I fully support the doctrines of the Church, without reservation.

Well, why he would think you wouldn't is a mystery to me!

 

[DurkaDurka]

I fully support the doctrines of the Church, without reservation.

Do you never see the need to question any of it?

 

[ottawabill]

boy o boy what an utter rant I seemed to have started

I surely am also Bias in this discussion (being Anglican) not born into the church but purposely joining it.

it always seems strange about human behaviour that the groups closest to each other are the ones with the most problems with each other..is it because we actually have a good understanding of each other.. I thinks about what I've seen above here and relate it to the general U.S./ Canada , how's better than who... Or the Catholic Irish against the Protesant Irish.... A budist would not or could not see much difference.

I have my own concerns of the two Churches ever re-uniting but it should not cause this much uproar.

Two issues, questions I have are Why can a women not be a Priest..is this in the bible? as well what is the holy role of the Pope?

 

[lieexpsr]

Do you never see the need to question any of it?

I only brought the question up because I am aware that some catholics priests and higher ups are discussing the possible change of position on condom use. I think the issue needs to be addressed and I see no reason why we shouldn't attempt to convince a catholic priest to take a revised position as his church is on the verge of possibly doing. It's not like the catholic church hasn't amended it's position on other matters which are sensible to abandon. And I applaud them when they at least do that. This is an issue which I would attempt to persuade them to change with gentle persuasion because it's just too important that they do, and soon!

With all due respects to sanctus and what appears to be a dogmatic position to me.

 

[lieexpsr]

boy o boy what an utter rant I seemed to have started

I surely am also Bias in this discussion (being Anglican) not born into the church but purposely joining it.

it always seems strange about human behaviour that the groups closest to each other are the ones with the most problems with each other..is it because we actually have a good understanding of each other.. I thinks about what I've seen above here and relate it to the general U.S./ Canada , how's better than who... Or the Catholic Irish against the Protesant Irish.... A budist would not or could not see much difference.

I have my own concerns of the two Churches ever re-uniting but it should not cause this much uproar.

Two issues, questions I have are Why can a women not be a Priest..is this in the bible? as well what is the holy role of the Pope?

It's silly that the catholic church won't allow women to be priests but to the catholic church's credit, it is in the midst of discussions on changing that too. As well as allowing priests to marry, which I think would be a huge move in the right direction for reason I won't discuss unles asked. In the interest of keeping the peace here. If one looks at religion through the ages though, one will find that religion is very chauvinistic toward women.

 

[marygaspe]

It's silly that the catholic church won't allow women to be priests but to the catholic church's credit, it is in the midst of discussions on changing that too..

You must've missed the memo. The Church is not discussing ordaining women. The issue was closed forever by the former Pope in 1994. And in case you're not aware of how things work for us, once a Pope makes a decision, it's pretty much a done deal.

As for your other point, you're also incorrect. The Church is considering allowing condom usage for married couples only, not as a general practice.

 

[karrie]

You must've missed the memo. The Church is not discussing ordaining women. The issue was closed forever by the former Pope in 1994. And in case you're not aware of how things work for us, once a Pope makes a decision, it's pretty much a done deal.

As for your other point, you're also incorrect. The Church is considering allowing condom usage for married couples only, not as a general practice.

Actually, the pope 'indefinitely' closed the issue of women becoming priests, from the way I heard it, which means only that he was not going to specify a time to revisit the issue. But, I could be wrong there, and anyone can of course feel free to tell me if I am.

 

[lieexpsr]

You must've missed the memo. The Church is not discussing ordaining women. The issue was closed forever by the former Pope in 1994. And in case you're not aware of how things work for us, once a Pope makes a decision, it's pretty much a done deal.

As for your other point, you're also incorrect. The Church is considering allowing condom usage for married couples only, not as a general practice.

When one pope make a decision it can be changed by a later pope, and obviously has been in the past. No matter that I am not an expert on the catholic religion, I cannot defer to your assertion above.

As for the condom question, that is probably sufficient because the floodgates will be opened for condom use. And also keep in mind that it is a problem of many men infecting their wives with AIDS. This is where the catholic church likes to put the blame on the people for their promiscuity, and perhaps righfully so they can blame the people in that regard. I think that is what sanctus has alluded to when he blamed the people for their behaviour. We'll find out if he replies again.

But marygaspe please, is blaming the people the right position to take on the issue when we see millions and millions of little children dying of AIDS, which could be prevented in many cases if the catholics would only change their dogmatic position. I ask you, what is more important, staying with the dogma or saving some children?

 

[DurkaDurka]

As for your other point, you're also incorrect. The Church is considering allowing condom usage for married couples only, not as a general practice.

Wow, the church is realy with the times. I am curious how many roman catholics have had premarital sex? I guess it would be in the range of 75-80%

 

[lieexpsr]

Thank you for joining in the discussion karrie. Look what we can do when we don't abuse others with insults which are against the rules of the forum. I sincerely hope the moderators are watching because I think my efforts to make this forum a better place may be starting to pay off!

 

[karrie]

But marygaspe please, is blaming the people the right position to take on the issue when we see millions and millions of little children dying of AIDS, which could be prevented in many cases if the catholics would only change their dogmatic position. I ask you, what is more important, staying with the dogma or saving some children?

I don't agree with the church's stance on birth control for a lot of reasons, but, I see one big flaw with blaming the Catholic church for AIDS. The church says that birth control is bad, because couples should be monogamous and having plenty of children. If someone is obeying church dogma, then there would STILL be no massive spread of AIDS, because they'd be monogamous. So, if someone picks and chooses which area of the dogma they listen to, becoming sexually promiscuous but not bothering with a condom, then they're the ones to be blamed. Technically, if they'd listened to the church, they'd be fine.

 

[lieexpsr]

I don't agree with the church's stance on birth control for a lot of reasons, but, I see one big flaw with blaming the Catholic church for AIDS. The church says that birth control is bad, because couples should be monogamous and having plenty of children. If someone is obeying church dogma, then there would STILL be no massive spread of AIDS, because they'd be monogamous. So, if someone picks and chooses which area of the dogma they listen to, becoming sexually promiscuous but not bothering with a condom, then they're the ones to be blamed. Technically, if they'd listened to the church, they'd be fine.

I am not blaming the catholic church for AIDS and I have made that clear. I very much resent your attempt to say otherwise and not just on my behalf.

Technically, a lot of strange, wonderful, and evil things would happen if people listened to the church but you technicalities are overruled by the compassion we need to have for the people who could be saved by using condoms. Shame on the church for knowing this is true and not doing something about it. And respectfully, shame on you for not supporting the necessary change. The fact that men come home and infect their wives, which ensures that the children they birth for the most part will be doomed to a cruel and painful wasting away as the die. Shame!

 

[karrie]

I am not blaming the catholic church for AIDS and I have made that clear. I very much resent your attempt to say otherwise and not just on my behalf.

Technically, a lot of strange, wonderful, and evil things would happen if people listened to the church but you technicalities are overruled by the compassion we need to have for the people who could be saved by using condoms. Shame on the church for knowing this is true and not doing something about it. And respectfully, shame on you for not supporting the necessary change. The fact that men come home and infect their wives, which ensures that the children they birth for the most part will be doomed to a cruel and painful wasting away as the die. Shame!

I didn't mean to imply you were blaming them for AIDS. I meant the "spread of AIDS". A simple slip, the sort of which you've been upset with others for attacking you on in the past.

That being said, if they choose to listen to only a portion of church dogma that is simply beyond the church's control. Why is it that Catholic men here have the intelligence to either not cheat on their wives, or to use a condom if they do? health services are doing a lot in Africa to teach the population that condom use is a wise and necessary step to prevent disease, but if these men choose to use church dogma to excuse dangerous behavior, I truly don't think that blame belongs with the church, but with those who are selectively choosing to follow it.

And why shame on me? I said from the beginning that I don't support the RCC's views on birth control.

 

[canadarocks]

I am not blaming the catholic church for AIDS and I have made that clear. I very much resent your attempt to say otherwise and not just on my behalf.

Technically, a lot of strange, wonderful, and evil things would happen if people listened to the church but you technicalities are overruled by the compassion we need to have for the people who could be saved by using condoms. Shame on the church for knowing this is true and not doing something about it. And respectfully, shame on you for not supporting the necessary change. The fact that men come home and infect their wives, which ensures that the children they birth for the most part will be doomed to a cruel and painful wasting away as the die. Shame!

You're blaming the Roman Catholic church because some ahole guys don't know how to be faithful to their wives? That dosen't make sense to me, and I'm not even Catholic.

 

[lieexpsr]

I didn't mean to imply you were blaming them for AIDS. I meant the "spread of AIDS". A simple slip, the sort of which you've been upset with others for attacking you on in the past.

That being said, if they choose to listen to only a portion of church dogma that is simply beyond the church's control. Why is it that Catholic men here have the intelligence to either not cheat on their wives, or to use a condom if they do? health services are doing a lot in Africa to teach the population that condom use is a wise and necessary step to prevent disease, but if these men choose to use church dogma to excuse dangerous behavior, I truly don't think that blame belongs with the church, but with those who are selectively choosing to follow it.

And why shame on me? I said from the beginning that I don't support the RCC's views on birth control.

I don't blame the catholic church for the spread of AIDS either and I have already said that. Pay attention to what I say, relax, and don't attack my ideas on general principle. You have my position on the issue and I won't state it again. But the catholic church may indeed change their position on the use of condoms, as marygaspe as already told us, and that will leave you out in the cold promoting the idea that those who contract AIDS will have asked for it because they were promiscuous. Tell it to the babies as they are dying in their mothers' arms and the mothers don't understand why or what they did wrong to make god hate them so.

 

[RomSpaceKnight]

I think the role of Mary Magdelene in Jesus life was and is understated. Women should be allowed to be priest in ANY religion. Killing is a sin yet at times it can be sanctioned such as for self defence. Use of condoms to save lives, in times of epidemics such as AIDS, should therefore be sanctioned by ANY church. Tradition and doctrine are one thing, dogma and rhetoric are another.

 

[talloola]

It's so easy to "just" toss blame back and forth, or "just' use your own religions rules to protect your
position.
While that is happening, thousands and thousands of people are dying. It's fine to say that the men
are at fault for not being faithful to their wives, and they are, but it doesn't matter, save lives.
The truth is - obviously they are not faithful, obviously they ignore the churches laws, obviously they
don't have much "between their ears" at all, so, with that said, EVERY possible method of protecting
the women/men/children from further spread of aids should be practiced, period.
It doesn't matter about churchs laws, or anybodys laws, the people "should" be protected, end of story.
Lives should be saved when we know how to do that. But, people are 'allowed" to die, because they
don't protect themselves, or, they won't, because the church says "don't", just die
instead.
It's no different than telling teenagers to "abstain" and you won't get pregnant, good advice, but it
doesn't work, so, better measures have to be taken, "protection". Can you just imagine how many
unwanted/illigitimate children would be born now days, if everyone just sat around telling teenagers
to abstain, and if they don't, just tell them, "oh well, it's your own fault", you didn't "obey".
UNREALISTIC and also, a "recipe" for many more abortions.