Canada's Role in Iraq?

[HeatSink]

I believe Canada is in the Gulf and patrolling (stopping/boarding) ships and traffic. Actually, helping the U.S. with security. Perhaps even guarding the off-shore wells or whatever. But, Canada is in Iraq like a dirty shirt! Make no mistake about that.

Canadian Bullets, Dead Iraqis
By Chris Spannos
September 08, 2004
http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=6188&sectionID=15

Sailors had to borrow ladders
November 11, 2004

Canadian sailors boarding ships in the Arabian Sea this year were forced to ask the crews of the suspicious vessels for help because they didn't have the right ladder for the job.

Documents obtained by the Halifax Daily News under the Access to Information Act show boarding parties from HMCS Toronto modified a ladder to climb three metres or more from an inflatable boat to the vessels they were searching.

"This worked in most cases, however, the unit was heavy and awkward and in some cases required assistance from the dhow crew to raise it into position," say navy documents.

"This compromised safety since dhow crewmen were required to be in the embarkation area instead of mustering forward."

The problems didn't end there during Operation Altair — Canada's contribution to the U.S.-led war on terrorism.

Even though temperatures usually ranged between 30C and 40C, navy rescue swimmers had to wear arctic wetsuits during boarding operations.

The frigate's dive team ordered thinner wetsuits before leaving Halifax, but because of a perceived lack of entitlement by the military supply department, it took almost 2 1/2 months for them to reach the ship.

Speaking as one who served in Roto 1 of Op Apollo in the Persian Gulf region, I can assure you that the role we played was in support of the war on terrorism...Afghanistan, Taliban, Al Qaeda, etc. We did nothing to participate in Iraq.

Op Apollo officially ended in October 2003 and Op Altair was stood up. Our Op Altair's comittment is a single ship attached to a US battle group and sometimes not even a single ship depending on whether resources are available. I believe that HMCS Toronto was the last ship to deploy in Op Altair and I think she's still there. In any case, the largest naval comittment we could possibly have now is a single ship.

Our job under Op Apollo, and I suspect it remains under Op Altair, is LIO and MIO operations (Leadership Interdiction Operations and Maritime Interdiction Operations). LIO involves the hunt for escaping leaders or the Taliba and Al Qaeda. MIO involves the hunt for contraband goods. Yes, our task group, and indeed my ship, hailed and boarded vessels of interest. In fact, Canadian ships performed 50% of the coalitions boardings...no small feat. In fact HMCS Algonquin actually captured 2 Al Qaeda members in the Arabian Gulf.

I know it's easy to think that since the two operations are geographically close that they're one and the same, but they are not. I will not say that there are not Canadians in Iraq because, as covered in another thread, there may be exchange billets in place. However, I will say that there were no Canadian assets deployed to Iraq when I was in the region and there are no Canadian assets deployed there now.

As for your references above, I fail to see how they support your point. You state, quite correctly, that Canadians are stopping/boarding ships (assuming we're in a period of Op Altair where there is a ship there) and then you presume that they're also guarding offshore oil wells. That probably isn't true, but I can't say for sure. However, your next sentence says that we're in Iraq like a dirty shirt. How do you make that leap? Even the article you quote appears to be in error. Clicking the link takes me to an article on a civilian Canadian business selling bullets to the US - it has nothing to do with the Canadian military.

If you want me, for one, to "make no mistake" that Canada is in Iraq "like a dirty shirt", you're going to have to supply more evidence than you've done so far.

Jon

 

[Paranoid Dot Calm]

I thought the war in Iraq was a war against terror?

I don't think there is any difference between Iraq and Afghanistan. It was just sold to us differently.

It is just a personal belief. I got no evidence.

Where are those J7 (or whatever) troops at right now?

Calm

 

[HeatSink]

I thought the war in Iraq was a war against terror?

I don't think there is any difference between Iraq and Afghanistan. It was just sold to us differently.

It is just a personal belief. I got no evidence.

Where are those J7 (or whatever) troops at right now?

Calm

<personal opinion>
Bush wanted UN approval, way back when, before going into Iraq. He needed to sell the war on Iraq to the world and since he already had the world sympathy and action in response to the events surrounding September 11th, he tried to put the two actions together. Most coalition countries, well the smart ones anyhow, were able to distinguish between an overt act of terrorism conducted on a NATO member's soil, and a doubtful series of smudges on a map that Powell was trying to sell as WMD sites. The stupid countries went with him, and for the life of me I can't understand why there are still 28 countries in there with them:

</personal opinion>

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_orbat_coalition.htm

However, I don't know why you feel anything was sold to you. I believe you are Canadian, since your address says Toronto, so when was anything about Iraq sold to us? The US tried and our government didn't bite. If you were personally sold on Iraq then that's a different story, but I'm not sure who you are including in your use of the word 'us'.

J7.....do you mean the JTF2? If so, then no one ever knows where they are - however since they are a Canadian asset I will stake my next paycheque that they're not in Iraq. I will bet my next paycheque that they're in or around Afghanistan though.

I respect your admission that you have no proof to support your belief - I think that's a much better road to go down than some who would freak out and attempt to manufacture proof in the face of a rebuttal like mine. However, I would ask for one concession.

I'm not going to kick a dea horse here, but as anyone reading this thread knows, I served in Op Apollo. I am very proud of the fact that Canada and myself, personally, served in what I believe to be a noble cause - the hunt for terrorists that had reached across the ocean and hurt a fellow NATO country (regardless of what we all think of the country in question). Op Apollo was Canada's largest troop deployment since the Korean War and our contribution either directly or indirectly resulted in the capture of many Al Qaeda and Taliban leaders. We did good.

When I was there the build up for Iraq was beginning and the US was moving more troops and military assets into the area. The talk started that the Canadian ships in the area were facilitating the build up of Iraq because, at that time, Canada had taken no stance on Iraq. As time goes on, the talk continues and now, even though the Canadian government has made it very clear that there are no military assets deployed in Iraq, people have somehow convinced themselves that we're there.

I have no problem with people believing what they want, but what I ask is this: Please try to be aware that your belief that we're in Iraq doing the dirty work of the States in what I believe to be an unjust war takes away from the good and the pride that we have over what we did in Op Apollo. It sullies our contribution and makes the good we did seem like some clandestine scheme to fool the world.

At the risk of sounding like a baby, it's hurtful. It's like telling a WWII vet that he was involved in the build up for Vietnam rather than doing the good he was doing. Well, not quite - but I hope you get my point.

Jon

 

[Paranoid Dot Calm]

Hi! HeatSink

I thought a heatsink was something on a processor chip and not part of the army.

Okay .... I see your point.

My brother-in-law is currently a member of the forces. I'm going to his place for Christmas dinner. He lives on the base in Downsview.
I'll just harass him from now on!

Sorry if I offended you.

Calm

 

[HeatSink]

Hi! HeatSink

I thought a heatsink was something on a processor chip and not part of the army.

Okay .... I see your point.

My brother-in-law is currently a member of the forces. I'm going to his place for Christmas dinner. He lives on the base in Downsview.
I'll just harass him from now on!

Sorry if I offended you.

Calm

Thanks,

It's easy to get caught up in the propaganda machine that is the States, I do it too.

The military is the 'hammer arm' or politics and it is designed to carry out the will of the government. The tasks associated with that, however, are carried out by individual people. I think it's imperative to separate the military organization from the individuals because quite frequently the individuals are doing a stellar job, it's just the organization that may be failing.

One another note: I think ultimately the States have won - I think they have made most of us believe that Iraq and 9/11 are one and the same. But, not the way they wanted to....travel with me:

Originally Bush wanted us to all believe so that we would support him politically and militarily. Most of the world said no - and he launched a huge propaganda campaign to make us all believe. Nobody bought it...or did we?

It's a very common thread these days to purport that there are Canadian military assets in Iraq - you said it yourself - "I don't think there is any difference between Iraq and Afghanistan...". So, in fact - haven't they won? Don't most of us think it's the same thing just like they wanted?

Food for thought....

 

[Paranoid Dot Calm]

Hi! HeatSink

Well the same reason that the U.S. are in Afghanistan is the same reason why they are in Iraq. They are in Afghanistan because the Taliban government renegged on an oil-pipeline deal with the U.S..

The U.S. needs a secure pipeline route overland from the Caspian sea. This is the only reason they are in Afghanistan. All the US is gonna do is "secure" the pipeline route. They don't care about the rest of the country. It's the biggest poppy/heroine country now. A lot of heroin addicts in the U.S. and Canada will be terrorizing local variety stores and robbing banks, trying to get the money for their next hit.

Oil, Afghanistan and America's pipe dream
By George Monbiot
October 25, 2001
http://www.dawn.com/2001/10/25/int15.htm

Hearing On US Interests In The Central Asian Republics
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on Asia and the Pacific,
Committee on International Relations,
Washington, DC.
February 12 1998
http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/intlrel/hfa48119.000/hfa48119_0f.htm

Unocol, Bridas wooing Taliban for $4.5bn Pak gas pipeline
June 02, 1997
http://www.expressindia.com/fe/daily/19970602/15355423.html

Gas, Oil and Afghanistan
By Jon Flanders
http://members.localnet.com/~jeflan/jfafghanpipe.htm

I don't think Canada is in Haiti because we love those folks. Canada is in Haiti because we can't have Haitian Boat People like we have had in the past with Vietnamese Boat People.
Canada is in Haiti just to police the shoreline .... they call that security.

Not to say that we should not be proud that we are there, but it certainly is not about love for Haitian's.

Calm

 

[Paco]

Well the same reason that the U.S. are in Afghanistan is the same reason why they are in Iraq. They are in Afghanistan because the Taliban government renegged on an oil-pipeline deal with the U.S..

Terrorists headquartered in Afghanistan attacked America's financial and military centers, killing 3,000 people, and then took credit for it.

Nope—must be the pipeline.

That is ridiculous.