Canada's Armed Forces

[Jay]

"Our tax dollars are not being spent properly to buy the equipment of Military choice, the government always seems to go with the lowest bidder or cheapest item they can get."

Our country is more than prepared to spend a few billion dollars on keeping list of citizens with guns, rather than spending money on the military.....It is time to kick out the lefties and build the nation.

 

[LeftCoast]

I think earlier I said we had a 3 brigade army - of course I meant a 3 division army (but not quite because divisions are actually only staffed at around 75% of combat strength levels).

If I were responsible for defense spending priorities I think I would want to do the following:

1. Paul Martin has committed to increasing the regular army by 1 brigade. This is a good first step, and is needed just to keep pace with our current troop rotations and deployments. In reality, we probably need a full division (approx 5000). Of course training and equiping an infantry division is not something we can do immediately. The reserve militia is woefully under equiped and all of the experienced officers tend to get deployed overseas, so training sufferes. My guess is it will take 3 years to equip and train even a brigade.

2. Airlift. We need both tactical and strategic airlift capabilities. We need to replace our aging fleet of C-130s with newer airframes - probably C-130J's. We also need to purchase a small number of strategic airlifters. While we have looked at C-17s (too expensive), An-70's (too Soviet), A400M's (vaporware and tactical not strategic), the most likely purchase is refurbish Illushin IL-76's, re-engined with GE or Rolls-Royce power plants.

3. The next priority goes to the Navy. We need to scrap the concept to the single supership to fill the Replentishment at Sea, Fleet Oiler and Sealift rolls. This is a boondogle that will never happen. We can purchase now from the US Navy 3 brand new - never commissioned - replentishment/oilers (San Antonio class) and then design/build/purchase a focused Sealift/Dock Landing ship. The navy also needs to return all of the Tribal and Halifax class frigates and destroyers to full active ready status and then look at something more

4. Next - is communications, command and control - this project has floated around for years under a variety of acronyms - currently ISTARS I think. Basically, when deployed overseas, Canada will always operate as part of a coalition. We need to be able to fully interoperate, communicate and contribute to the communications, command and control functions of our allies - most notable, the UK, US and NATO.

5. With the renewed focus on homeland security and terrorism we next need to look at upgrading or replacing the C-140/C-140A long range patrol aircraft. These P3 Orion/S3- Viking hybrids have ancient Lockheed Electra airframes and are currently going through an upgrade program. I don't know the specifics of what components are being upgraded, but I hope that it involves a shift from an anti-submarine focus to a surface and air search focus. Additionally somehow I think that one or two northern "sovereignty" partol filghts a year is insufficient to enforce Canada claim (which is disputed) over our northern archipeligos.

 

[Armyguy]

Hock:

The moral issue, I guess that depends on who you talk to, it is fairly good at the Pte /Cpl level, The army has more than it's share of upto date equipment. Life is good...moral takes a nose dive the higher you go up in the ranks...it becomes frustating because we all love our jobs. and we know it could be alot better than it is today.
Training is getting better, with this new 3 block war concept but it remains to long...plus it various from ROTO to ROTO, if we had taken those slack periods to repeat some of the training or learn something else it would be a welcomed addition. But i agree it is to long...
I think the New CDS has plans for moving a battle group by sea, which may involve purchasing or leasing a new ST antonio class LPD-17 ship with a meduim size RO-RO ship, if the liberals ever give us the funding they promised.
Perhaps if the New training center in Wainwright gets off the ground they could standize the training we recieve perhaps even shorten it up...

 

[bluealberta]

To me, the issue is simple. Either we have a military that is properly funded, both for personel and equipment, or we abdicate our military responsibilities to the UN or US. Suggestions have been made on here about cutting some programs, which I would agree with, to increase funding to the military.

Given todays news in London, this is a topical issue again. If we are truly to be a sovereign country, we must have the ability to defend ourselves. At this point, with helicopters that require more maintenance than they get air time, subs that don't submerge, and a fast response team that takes a week to respond, that ability is somewhat suspect.

In my opinion, we should set up some sort of commission with past and present military people heavily involved, draw up a best case scenario of what is required, decide if we can fund this type of military, and then decide if we keep it. To keep doing it half assed is disprectful to the present military personnel. Either keep it as a viable military, or get rid of it, with provision for defense from someone else, probably the US. Let them use our bases in return for their military protection.

 

[Armyguy]

Left coast:
You were right the first time a Brigade is about 5000 troops ,with 3 brigades to a division (about 18 to 20,000 pers per division) Canada does not have a formed divsion as per say, we used to, but not any longer.

We have permision to increase our numbers by 5000 already DND has est it will take 5 years to train them ,build or increase infra struture to accomadate them. These numbers will flush out already established units..don't get me wrong i love your idea of another brigade.
But equiping it will be a major challange. Can i suggest reading up on ASR "Army support review" on the DND web site. it explains how this is going to happen ,plus the direction we are moving in now. Outfitting a equipment storeage depot for quick deployments plus equiping a national training center has left most units with about a 1/3 of thier orginal equipmnet. with out some major funding this will be just a dream.
we really need to look at our airlift capabilities, their is a couple good articles on this, in CASR web site...i'm not to fussy about russian equipment, but the C-17's and A400M are good chioces, they also discuss the navy's options and thier chioces.if you can't find it let me know. But i think you have named everything that is already in progress within the Armed Forces.

We actually have a good comms network, the UK recently adopted ours believe it or not,what we lack is sat com etc.

 

[Jo Canadian]

 

[DoubleWitt]

The Armed Forces...


Well, with what concerns equipment - no doubt quality is of extreme importance or otherwise - what's the point? Are we defeating the purpose somehow with crap equipment...? How can you build team pride with junk...? It's like telling your team, well - listen friends, you are all on a suicide mission. We've had enough of these suicide bomb attacks - are we trying to imitate them...? You need a lot of good sense to manage an army...

One thing I appreciate about Americans is the fact that despite internal conflicts in the country, they have that national pride and somehow manage to stick together. The Americans learned the importance of this. It's true that they often come on strong with that and go overboard but - I would rather see that compared with what we see here in Canada. It's actually very pathetic in general. Have you seen a state pull off and become a separate country within the USA? In general, Canadians don't stick together! It's obvious enough - they are obsessed with the idea of separation in every way possible - the sky's the limit...! Or could the sky be separated...? Maybe...! The leaders of our country over the past decades haven't done much to stimulate the public or arouse enthusiastic interest in the Canadian Armed Forces. They would rather use their funds to support huge corporations for the sale of poisonous cigarettes, and poisonous home cleaning products and so on instead of investing the money to advertise and create an attraction for the Army opportunity.

Put your money where your Army is...!

But our leaders are so distracted with endless projects that they can't see the end from the beginning - it seems like they are in a state of confusion. Maybe they are trying to figure out ways to separate all the projects. Madness...!
Maybe we can send all the soldiers with this sophisticated equipment...

DoubleWitt

 

[Nascar_James]

The Armed Forces...

One thing I appreciate about Americans is the fact that despite internal conflicts in the country, they have that national pride and somehow manage to stick together. The Americans learned the importance of this. It's true that they often come on strong with that and go overboard but - I would rather see that compared with what we see here in Canada. It's actually very pathetic in general. Have you seen a state pull off and become a separate country within the USA? In general, Canadians don't stick together! It's obvious enough - they are obsessed with the idea of separation in every way possible - the sky's the limit...! Or could the sky be separated...? Maybe...! The leaders of our country over the past decades haven't done much to stimulate the public or arouse enthusiastic interest in the Canadian Armed Forces. They would rather use their funds to support huge corporations for the sale of poisonous cigarettes, and poisonous home cleaning products and so on instead of investing the money to advertise and create an attraction for the Army opportunity.

Put your money where your Army is...!

But our leaders are so distracted with endless projects that they can't see the end from the beginning - it seems like they are in a state of confusion. Maybe they are trying to figure out ways to separate all the projects. Madness...!
Maybe we can send all the soldiers with this sophisticated equipment...

DoubleWitt

Good points DoubleWitt. Americans do stick together at times of need. Also, you have a good argument in that Canada always has the issue of seperation over it's shoulder. In comparison, it's a non-issue here in the US. A quote from our pledge of Allegiance...."A Nation Under God Indivisible". If Canada had the foresight to add the word "Indivisible" in it's constitution or pledge of allegiance, there would not be any talk of seperation since it would be illegal.

Canada, with the high taxes should invest some of that tax money into defense. If a major national crisis were to occur in Canada, they would be ill equipped to handle the situation.

 

[no1important]

Canada, with the high taxes should invest some of that tax money into defense. If a major national crisis were to occur in Canada, they would be ill equipped to handle the situation.

We seemed to handle the ice storm quite well as many other diasters. It is your country Nascar Nero that is ill prepared for diasters. Your country obviously made no improvements since 9/11 for diasters natural and otherwise.

We are also more prepared for the bird flu than any other country including America.

In comparison, it's a non-issue here in the US. A quote from our pledge of Allegiance...."A Nation Under God Indivisible". If Canada had the foresight to add the word "Indivisible" in it's constitution or pledge of allegiance, there would not be any talk of seperation since it would be illegal.

Oh and how would that stop a region from leaving if they wanted too? Each time I have gone to Hawaii there is always talk of seperation there, hell there are even signs up telling America to leave. And that indivisible part does not seem to stop them.

 

[DoubleWitt]

no1important

Were you here in the region during the ice storm...?
I politely disagree with you, friend.
I don't want to degrade Canada in any way cause that's not my intention - but I don't want to ignore the truth either...
Basically, in all countries there is room for improvement. Canadians lack something though - sticking together - but they can't do it in their personal lives either - so what's wrong...?
Maybe with all that's going on Canadians will start to realize the importance of unity - hopefully...

DoubleWitt

 

[Nascar_James]

Re: RE: Canada's Armed Forces

Canada, with the high taxes should invest some of that tax money into defense. If a major national crisis were to occur in Canada, they would be ill equipped to handle the situation.

We seemed to handle the ice storm quite well as many other diasters. It is your country Nascar Nero that is ill prepared for diasters. Your country obviously made no improvements since 9/11 for diasters natural and otherwise.

We are also more prepared for the bird flu than any other country including America.

In comparison, it's a non-issue here in the US. A quote from our pledge of Allegiance...."A Nation Under God Indivisible". If Canada had the foresight to add the word "Indivisible" in it's constitution or pledge of allegiance, there would not be any talk of seperation since it would be illegal.

Oh and how would that stop a region from leaving if they wanted too? Each time I have gone to Hawaii there is always talk of seperation there, hell there are even signs up telling America to leave. And that indivisible part does not seem to stop them.

I was in Montreal in early January of 1998 (visiting over the Christmas break) when the worst ice storm that I could remember hit the city. The city did not handle the ice storm well at all. There were many deaths due to the cold since the power grid was not able to handle the storm and many folks were left without power for many days. I recall a state of emergency was declared and the city was virtually shut down and paralized. The authorities did not handle the situation well at all.

 

[DoubleWitt]

Nascar_James wrote:

I was in Montreal in early January of 1998 (visiting over the Christmas break) when the worst ice storm that I could remember hit the city. The city did not handle the ice storm well at all. There were many deaths due to the cold since the power grid was not able to handle the storm and many folks were left without power for many days. I recall a state of emergency was declared and the city was virtually shut down and paralized. The authorities did not handle the situation well at all.

In some regions, many many homes were without power for up to 6 weeks - it was a literal major breakdown in the city and surrounding areas. There is an endless list of complications that were severely difficult to handle. But we survived it - and I believe we'll handle it better the next time.

DoubleWitt

 

[Nascar_James]

Nascar_James wrote:

I was in Montreal in early January of 1998 (visiting over the Christmas break) when the worst ice storm that I could remember hit the city. The city did not handle the ice storm well at all. There were many deaths due to the cold since the power grid was not able to handle the storm and many folks were left without power for many days. I recall a state of emergency was declared and the city was virtually shut down and paralized. The authorities did not handle the situation well at all.

In some regions, many many homes were without power for up to 6 weeks - it was a literal major breakdown in the city and surrounding areas. There is an endless list of complications that were severely difficult to handle. But we survived it - and I believe we'll handle it better the next time.

DoubleWitt

Let us all hope there is no next time. No more ice storms. I recall many of those folks were burning furniture to keep warm. It was a real bad experience.

 

[DoubleWitt]

To be or not to be...

If I was 18 again and reviewing the opportunity to get involved in the Canadian Armed Forces, I would look at our country and see all the separatist attacks and wonder what's the point in trying to defend a country that can't stand together - they can't hold their pants up...! Wonders, what will happen when they are down!? Kids today are going to apply for jobs with their pants down - is that normal? - Are we losing our minds? Actually, I wouldn't know what I am defending. Oh - I'm defending Canada - or the remains of it - the leftovers... Are we trying to stimulate national pride...?
If we put ourselves in their shoes, how do you think a young person would feel about that? The issue would be somewhat confusing.
It's sad to say that the wrong kind of people have gotten into the gov jobs. They are demolishing our country - and you can seriously question their level of maturity. We used to sing that song United we Stand, divided we fall... Have they banned the song?

DoubleWitt