Bhutto follows her father

[wallyj]

I'm sure Logic is getting it all tied together as we speak....I await his verdict with baited breath...

I always thought that logic7was a woman. Hmmm,anyways I was describing Dark Beavers anti-Bush musings from above. But,with the confusion about bullet or bomb,the CT's have a place to start. Of course if CNN does have a video,as mentioned by Kreskin,well ,that would prove everything.

 

[wallyj]

ABC news is now reporting that it was an Al-Qaeda hit.The order was given back in October.

 

[Pangloss]

The General doesn't want to let go yet.

Woof!

Silly and obvious. If you are suggesting that Musharraf had her killed you are opining before the evidence is in; if you are stating that he will cynically take advantage of this to justify his continued hold on power, how is this news? How is this different from any political party anywhere in the world?

Pangloss

 

[Toro]

Al-Kaduh seems to be a powerful well financed organization that is able to strike any where on the globe at any time. That reminds me of something.

It reminds me of Communist terror groups too, DB.

 

[Pangloss]

A couple of thoughts:

One: Musharraf pardoned her (or just dropped the charges) for her corruption during her Prime Ministership. He did this to try a power sharing arrangement and gain credibility and a wider base of support. It might not have been in his best interest for her to be martyred. The PPP is going to take full advantage of this, and even if they don't have a replacement as charismatic as Bhutto, they might do much better in the election than if she were a living candidate.

Those elections, by the way, are only ten days from now, if Musharraf does not cancel them.

Two: The canonization of Bhutto. I used to be a big fan of hers - I liked her economic and social policies, and her attitude towards the west (she is a London School of Economics grad, after all). Then her husband and her started to steal the treasury, and she went soft on the Madrassas - incubators for Al Quaida (sp?) and the Taliban. She agreed to come back to Pakistan, knowing this would lend support and credibility to a dictator. She could have come back any time, remember, on her own and owing nothing to anyone - she simply would have had to face the charges. Nevertheless, she will be canonized as some sort of feminist icon. Women - choose your role models with care.

Bhutto was smart, brave, dedicated and committed to democracy. She was also corrupt, opportunistic and not terribly different from most other politicians.

Pangloss

 

[Pangloss]

Toro and DB -

Of course Al-Q is going to claim responsibility. This was a big hit and plays all over the world. If some other group did it, and they got all the press, this would diminish the #1 in the charts bad guy status that sustains Al-Q.

Maybe they did it, maybe they didn't. We won't know for a while.

There are a whole lot of crazy people and nasty groups out there who could have done this.

Pangloss

 

[thomaska]

I always thought that logic7was a woman. Hmmm,anyways I was describing Dark Beavers anti-Bush musings from above. But,with the confusion about bullet or bomb,the CT's have a place to start. Of course if CNN does have a video,as mentioned by Kreskin,well ,that would prove everything.

Might be a woman, although most women may be offended at the suggestion.

 

[gopher]

Now do you Republicans see that Bush invaded the wrong country?

 

[gopher]

ABC news is now reporting that it was an Al-Qaeda hit.The order was given back in October.

Al Qaeda had plenty of opportunity to kill her when she was in exile.

 

[Kreskin]

A couple of thoughts:

One: Musharraf pardoned her (or just dropped the charges) for her corruption during her Prime Ministership. He did this to try a power sharing arrangement and gain credibility and a wider base of support. It might not have been in his best interest for her to be martyred. The PPP is going to take full advantage of this, and even if they don't have a replacement as charismatic as Bhutto, they might do much better in the election than if she were a living candidate.

Those elections, by the way, are only ten days from now, if Musharraf does not cancel them.

Two: The canonization of Bhutto. I used to be a big fan of hers - I liked her economic and social policies, and her attitude towards the west (she is a London School of Economics grad, after all). Then her husband and her started to steal the treasury, and she went soft on the Madrassas - incubators for Al Quaida (sp?) and the Taliban. She agreed to come back to Pakistan, knowing this would lend support and credibility to a dictator. She could have come back any time, remember, on her own and owing nothing to anyone - she simply would have had to face the charges. Nevertheless, she will be canonized as some sort of feminist icon. Women - choose your role models with care.

Bhutto was smart, brave, dedicated and committed to democracy. She was also corrupt, opportunistic and not terribly different from most other politicians.

Pangloss

Has there ever been a politician that could NOT be hung out to dry for stealing from the treasury? Court systems in that part of the world are glorified kangaroo traps. Hell, even in this part of the world political opposition can claim your war medals as being obtained fraudulently and make films to so-called prove it. Politics creates lynch mobs that will lie, defame, and steal their way into power. So until forensic accountants can prove her theft from the treasury I'll put that allegation on the back burner and resume my canonization.

 

[gopher]

``Then her husband and her started to steal the treasury``


That charge was refuted by the audit division of Pakistan's government. Had she stolen the $800 million and owned the huge estates in Switzerland as charged, she would be living the high life there free from persecution and death.

 

[Pangloss]

Kreskin -

You are right in that her thieving was not out of the ordinary. But I diasgree on the "kangaroo trap" description of their judicial system. There is a rule of law there, even with Musharraf's arrogant corruption and bullying of the judiciary.

My point was not so much the credibility of the charges (although the weight of evidence says she likely did steal from the till), but her response to them: she took exile rather than face the charges; and she cravenly accepted a pardon from Musharraf and came home (making Musharraf look far better than he deserved) in her pursuit of winning back power for herself.

No different than any other cynical politician.

Keep in mind, I am not blind to her virtues (some listed in previous posts).

Pangloss

 

[Kreskin]

*Kreskin stands up and breaks speaking in tongues to comment*

Given what happened today I think anyone in Pakistan should live in exile for their own safety if they can. She sure had guts to go back and confront the cave dwellers.

*Kreskin kneels to resume prayers..la la la*

 

[Pangloss]

Gopher:

You might be right. I doubt that she stole anywhere near $800 million. I don't doubt that some branches of the government have said there is too little evidence.

I can't name a figure (just as you cannot) and I can't state for certain that she did it. As you cannot state she and her husband are innocent - there did seem to be the whiff of a set up to all of this. So if the charges are b.s. and the audit department says she did nothing wrong: why did she stay away until Musharraf dropped the charges?

Anyway, the klepticism is a minor charge - her bedding with the militant religious was my big concern.

Pangloss

 

[Pangloss]

*Kreskin stands up and breaks speaking in tongues to comment*

Given what happened today I think anyone in Pakistan should live in exile for their own safety if they can. She sure had guts to go back and confront the cave dwellers.

*Kreskin kneels to resume prayers..la la la*

Given that she made peace with the "cave dwellers" while she was in power, I don't know if it was them she thought she had to fear.

BTW - there are a whole lot of different "cave dwelling" groups out there, all with slightly different agendas. That brush you're using could paint a house in one stroke.

She stayed away because of threats of criminal punishment. She came back because Musharraf needed her political support and so dismissed all her convictions (if there were any) and any remaining charges. She came back to pursue political power.

Let's be clear on that, at least.

Pangloss

 

[gopher]

``her bedding with the militant religious was my big concern.``

She never did --- this is a claim made by Musharraf and other enemies of Pakistan.

Bhutto's party was a center-left socialistic party. It sought the emancipation of women which does not comport with the ideas of Islamists or with orthodox Muslims. Moreover, she openly opposed Al Qaeda's reactionary views.

 

[Kreskin]

In politics if you say the same lie over and over it eventually becomes the truth. I certainly don't expect people to return to kangaroo courts when they don't have to. And yes, cave-dwellers is painted with a large brush.

 

[Pangloss]

Kreskin:

Kangaroo courts in Pakistan - please provide some evidence.

Pangloss

 

[gopher]

Where have you been, Pangloss?

Even the right wing media has reported several times that Musharraf kicked out judges and put in his judicial cronies onto the legal benches there.

 

[Kreskin]

Kreskin:

Kangaroo courts in Pakistan - please provide some evidence.

Pangloss

The legal system is governed by Islamic principles, which means a judge can decide just about anything as long as he doesn't get knifed by fanatics.