Belief, Truth, Assumption, and Reason

Scott Free

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Definitions of "God"
Before getting to the arguments, it is important to present the various definitions of "God" that they employ:
D1: God is the eternal, all-powerful, personal being who created and rules the universe. (Being eternal, God cannot come into or go out of existence. Being all-powerful, he can perform any action that is logically possible to perform. Being personal, he has some characteristics in common with humans, such as thinking, feeling emotions, and performing actions. The universe is understood to consist of all the space, time, matter, and energy that has ever existed.)
D2: God is the eternal, very powerful, personal being who rules the universe, loves humanity, and gave humanity its moral conscience.
D3: God is the eternal, very powerful, personal being who rules the universe, loves humanity, and strongly desires that that love be reciprocated.
D4: God is that being which is self-existent, that is, which contains the explanation for its own existence within itself.
D5: God is that being which is (objectively) perfect in every way. (The term "perfect" is here understood in an objective sense, as opposed to a subjective sense relative to individual values, so the term may be used in public reasoning.)

D6: God is the deity described in the Bible as interpreted by evangelical Christianity.

It will be indicated for each argument which of the above definitions of "God" it employs.



We live in a world of objects and so it is logical we would turn god into an object complete with definition, however as I will demonstrate, that doesn't mean god really is an object.


Arguments Against God's Existence
1. The Anti-creation Argument (D1, D6):

(a) If X creates Y, then X must exist temporally prior to Y.
(b) But nothing could possibly exist temporally prior to time itself (for that would involve existing at a time when there was no time, which is a contradiction).
(c) Thus, it is impossible for time to have been created.
(d) Time is an essential component of the universe.

(e) Therefore, it is impossible for the universe to have been created.

(f) It follows that God, as defined by D1 and D6, cannot exist.
Discussion: A similar argument might possibly be constructed with regard to the other components of the universe as well: space, matter, and energy. It is very hard to comprehend how a being could have created the universe without existing within space and without any involvement with matter or energy.
- The God of evangelical Christianity (defined by D6) is included here (and for argument #2, below) because of the first sentence in the Bible, which evangelicals take to refer to the entire universe.

Time is a component of the universe and as such has limitations. It is an error in logic to say that something (god) must conform to the limits of something itself limited (time), prior to its existence. Time itself is definitive so I agree that nothing inside time could have existed prior but that certainly doesn't mean something couldn't outside of it. I have my own opinions of what time is.

2. The Transcendent-Personal Argument (D1, D6):

(a) In order for God to have created the universe, he must have been transcendent, that is, he must have existed outside space and time.
(b) But to be personal implies (among other things) being within space and time.

(c) Therefore, it is logically impossible for God, as defined by D1 or D6, to exist.
Discussion:

It might be suggested that God has a part that is outside space and time and another part that is inside space and time and that it is the latter part, not the former part, which is personal in nature. But the idea of a being which is partly personal and partly transcendent is incomprehensible. Furthermore, definition D1 implies that God, as a personal being, existed prior to the universe, and it is incomprehensible how a personal being could do so.
- Aside from conceptual considerations that have to do with the very concept of "being personal," there are empirical considerations relevant to premise (b). It might be argued that to be personal requires having thoughts and that science has very strongly confirmed that having thoughts is dependent on having a physical brain. For example, since brain damage has always been found to delete, or at least disrupt, thoughts, it can be extrapolated that there can be no thoughts at all in the total absence of a brain. Although the empirical support for premise (b) is very strong, that may not be a factor that would impress people who are not "scientifically oriented" to begin with.

This argument hinges on defining god as an object within the universe. If god is, instead, an object outside of reality then he could be both real and personal with no way for us to recognize him. Any action he takes would seem natural, normal and just the way of things.

3. The Incoherence-of-Omnipotence Argument (D1, D6):
(a) If God as defined by D1 or D6 were to exist, then he would be omnipotent (i.e., able to do anything that is logically possible).
(b) But the idea of such a being is incoherent.

(c) Hence, such a being cannot possibly exist.
Discussion: Definition D6 is included here because evangelical Christians maintain that the biblical description of God as "Almighty" is accurate. The issue of whether or not premise (b) is true is complicated. Some writers claim that the idea of omnipotence in itself is inconsistent. Also, some writers claim that being omnipotent is incompatible with possessing certain other properties. (For example, an omnipotent being could commit suicide, since to do so is logically possible, but an eternal being, by definition, could not. Hence, the idea of the deity defined by D1 or D6 is incoherent.) Whether or not the given claim is true is here left open. See comments on the concept of "incoherence" made in connection with argument #7, below. (For further material on arguments similar to #3, see Everitt, 2004, Martin, 1990, and Martin and Monnier, 2003, in the bibliography below.)

- The divine attribute of omniscience gives rise to similar considerations, and there is an Incoherence-of-Omniscience Argument that could be raised. (For material on it, see the references above.) That argument, which is omitted here to save space, also has a premise (b) (worded as in argument #3), which introduces issues that are exceedingly complicated and controversial.

This argument hinges on defining the answer. A painter can create a painting but once the paint has dried has no more control over it. If he does decide to change the painting it is generally a disaster where a new glob is introduced and interrupts the entire piece which is very comparable to the biblical nasties god seems so fond of.

I do realize this rebuttal contradicts my last one. I'm not trying to make a cohesive argument for god; I'm just making argument to see what will happen, that is, where it will lead.

4. The Lack-of-evidence Argument (D1, D2, D3, D6):

(a) If God as defined by any of the four definitions in question were to exist, then he would have to be deeply involved in the affairs of humanity and there would be good objective evidence of his existence.
(b) But there is no good objective evidence for the existence of a deity thus defined.
(c) Therefore, God, as defined by D1, D2, D3, or D6, does not exist.

Discussion: The rationale behind premise (a) is that the sort of deity in question, a personal being who rules the universe or who loves humanity (and perhaps wants that love reciprocated), would need to become involved in the affairs of humans and thereby reveal his existence overtly. It might be claimed that God has achieved such involvement just by means of subjective religious experiences, without providing humanity with any good objective evidence of his existence. This assertion could be attacked on the ground that people who claim to have had such experiences are mistaken about the nature and cause of them. It might also be reasonably argued that religious experiences would be insufficient for the given divine purposes, and only good objective (publicly testable) evidence of some sort would do. Argument #4 is a versatile argument that can be widely used by atheists to attack God's existence, given many different definitions of "God."

Another argument similar to #4, sometimes put forward by scientifically oriented atheists, is the Argument from Metaphysical Naturalism, according to which all phenomena ever observed are best explained by appeal to natural causes (Carrier, 2005). Since that premise is a reason to accept naturalism, it provides an evidential argument against God's existence. However, the given premise is an extremely sweeping one and for that reason alone argument #4 would be preferable.

This is only true if you assume that we could discern the evidence. We created our logic and so it is fair to think our logic might not be capable of discovering god. It is already being contemplated that our logic isn't enough to explain the physical universe, so how much more deficient must it be in describing something outside of it? Very, I would think.

5. The Argument from Evil (D2, D3, D6):
(a) If there were to exist a very powerful, personal being who rules the universe and loves humanity, then there would not occur as much evil (i.e., suffering and premature death) as there does.
(b) But there does occur that much evil.
(c) Therefore, there does not exist such a being.

(d) Hence, God, as defined by D2, D3 or D6, does not exist.
Discussion: This formulation of the argument is a version of what is called "The Logical Argument from Evil." If the word "probably" were to be inserted into steps (a), (c), and (d), then it would be a version of what is called "The Evidential Argument from Evil." Similar considerations arise in connection with the different versions. According to the Free-will Defense, premise (a) is false because God wants people to have free will and that requires that they be able to create evil. The evil that actually occurs in our world is mankind's fault, not God's. Thus, God can still love humanity and be perfectly good despite all the evil that occurs. There are many objections to this defense. One of them is that much of the suffering and premature death that occurs in our world is due to natural causes rather than human choices, and the Free-will Defense would be totally irrelevant to that form of evil. (Drange, 1998.)


Any amount of permitted evil will seem like too much to us. I would argue that real evil is impossible and barely recognizable. That what we call evil is just a permitted fraction of what is possible. We have no idea what real evil is because god doesn't permit it. We are like a child with a gas bubble in that the gas bubble is the beginning and end of pain; it is all we know so it is everything.

6. The Argument from Nonbelief (D3, D6):
(a) If there were to exist a very powerful, personal being who rules the universe, loves humanity, and who strongly desires that his love for humanity be reciprocated, then there would not exist as much nonbelief in the existence of such a being as there does.

(b) But there does exist that much nonbelief.
(c) Therefore, there does not exist such a being.

(d) Hence, God, as defined by D3 or D6, does not exist.
Discussion: As with the Argument from Evil, an "evidential" version of this argument could be constructed by inserting the word "probably" into steps (a), (c), and (d). Similar considerations arise for all the various versions. The argument is directed against the deity defined by D6, as well as the one defined by D3, because evangelical Christians take God to have all the properties mentioned in D3. (For a discussion of the Argument from Nonbelief framed on the basis of definition D6, see Drange, 1993.) Possibly the argument might also be directed against the deity defined by D2, and something like that is attempted in Schellenberg, 1993, though there it would not be quite so forceful.
The rationale behind premise (a) is that nonbelief in God is an impediment to loving him, so a deity as described by definition D3 or D6 would remove that impediment if he were to exist. Defenses similar to those in the case of the Argument from Evil could be raised, and similar objections to them could be presented. (Drange, 1998.)

People once didn't believe in germs but it didn't prevent anyone from catching cooties. God is impossible to know because he is outside of us. We are in-the-universe and of-the-universe, where god is neither. We are he is.

7. Arguments from Incoherence (D4, D5, D6):

(a) In order for X to explain Y, not only must Y be derivable from X, but the derivation needs to be in some way illuminating.
(b) If X is derived from itself, then the derivation is in no way illuminating.

(c) Thus, it is impossible for anything to explain itself.
(d) God as defined by D4 is supposed to explain itself.
(e) It follows that the idea of "God" as defined by D4 is incoherent.
(f) Furthermore, perfection is relative, and so, the concept of "objectively perfect," as a concept employed in public reasoning, makes no sense.
(g) Hence, the idea of "God" as defined by D5 is also incoherent.
(h) In addition, the Bible contains descriptions of God that are incoherent (e.g., implying both that Jesus is God and that Jesus is God's son, that God is spirit or a spirit and that God is love).
(i) Evangelical Christians interpret those descriptions literally.

(j) Therefore, it might be argued that the idea of "God" as defined by D6 is also incoherent.
Discussion: Unlike the other arguments in this section, these arguments do not aim to prove God's nonexistence, but rather, the incoherence of God-talk when "God" is defined in certain ways. The point is not that theists who employ such God-talk are mistaken about the world, but that they are confused in their language.
The idea of "incoherence" is also sometimes applied to contradictions or other sorts of conceptual incompatibility. For example, arguments #2 & #3, above, could each be regarded as a kind of "argument from incoherence," for they appeal to conceptual incompatibilities between pairs of divine attributes. [This point might also be applicable to definition D5 if theists were to try to combine it with other definitions. For example, if a theist were to claim that God is both perfect (as given in D5) and the creator of the universe (as given in D1), then it might be argued that such a notion is incoherent, since a perfect being can have no wants, whereas a creator must have some wants. Or if a theist were to claim that God is perfect and also loves humanity (as given in D2 & D3), then it might be argued that such a notion is incoherent, since a perfect being can feel no disappointment, whereas a being who loves humanity must feel some disappointment.] However, this notion of "incoherence" is different from that appealed to in the Arguments from Incoherence, for if incompatible properties are ascribed, at least there is a conjunction of propositions there, even if it is a contradictory pair. In that case, it would still make sense to say that the sentence "God exists" expresses a (necessarily) false proposition. But with the sort of "incoherence" appealed to in the Arguments from Incoherence there is no proposition expressed at all, whether true or false. (For more on incompatible-properties arguments against God's existence, see Martin and Monnier, 2003.)


This argument hinges on god being something like us. We are finite and can be defined within such terms but God is defined by the complete sum of beginning and end and everything in between. To define god would indeed take the entire universe and possibly more!

8. The Argument from Confusion (D6):
(a) If the deity described in the Bible as interpreted by evangelical Christianity were to exist, then there would not exist as much confusion and conflictedness among Christians as there does, particularly with regard to important doctrinal issues such as God's laws and the requirements for salvation.
(b) But there does exist that much. (Christians disagree widely among themselves on such issues, as shown, among other things, by the great number of different Christian denominations and sects that exist.)
(c) Therefore, that deity does not exist.

(d) Hence God as defined by D6 does not exist.
Discussion: The rationale behind premise (a) is that the God of evangelical Christianity is a deity who places great emphasis upon awareness of the truth, especially with regard to important doctrinal issues. It is expected, then, that if such a deity were to exist, he would place a high priority upon the elimination of confusion and conflictedness among his own followers with regard to important doctrinal issues. Because of the great abundance of Christian confusion of the relevant sort, this argument is a very forceful one.


The confusion found in religion is caused by human deficiency in that; reality can not be used to describe something outside of itself, and I should be surprised if any attempt didn't look completely confused - as it should. What I mean to say is that like above, the entire universe is needed to define god so it is little wonder we can't do it in a few passages in a book or in a few thousand years of history. God is physically indescribable in those terms and confusion is the predictable result.

9. The Argument from Biblical Defects (D6):
(a) If the deity described in the Bible as interpreted by evangelical Christianity were to exist, then the Bible itself would not have the defects that it has. That is, it would not contain textual errors, interpolations, contradictions, factual errors (including false prophecies), and ethical defects. Also, the canon would have been assembled with less political involvement and would not have original manuscripts or parts missing.
(b) But the Bible does contain those defects.

(c) Therefore, that deity, which is God as defined by D6, does not exist.
Discussion: Premise (a) is based on the point that evangelical Christians regard the Bible to be God's main form of revelation to humanity. So, given that their God exists, it would be expected that the Bible would possess features implied by the motivations which they ascribe to him. Premise (a) follows quite naturally. (For examples of the Bible's defects, see appendix D of Drange, 1998, and Mattill, 1995. For more on arguments #8 & #9, see Drange, "The Arguments from Confusion and Biblical Defects" in the forthcoming Martin and Monnier, 2006.)
The universe itself seems to have errors! How could you then expect so much from a book that is expected to describe such a one as god? The book has errors because the medium can't contain the message.

10. The Argument from Human Insignificance (D6):
(a) If the deity described in the Bible as interpreted by evangelical Christianity were to exist, then it would be expected that humans occupy some significant place in the universe.
(b) But, both from the standpoint of space (the size of the universe in relation to the size of the earth) and from the standpoint of time (the length of time in which the universe has existed in relation to the length of time in which humans have existed), humans do not occupy any significant place in the universe.
(c) Hence, God, as defined by D6, probably does not exist.
Discussion: The idea behind the first premise here is that the Bible describes God as having a very special interest in humans. Since humans are so important, they should naturally occupy some significant place in space and time. To reject that idea is to reject the evangelical Christian outlook on the nature of reality. (A slightly different version of this argument is referred to as "The Argument from Scale" in Everitt, 2004.)

- There are many other arguments against God's existence. Some are inductive in form (Martin, 1990). Some make appeal to cosmological assumptions (Craig and Smith, 1993). I have here picked just those that I regard to be the main ones.

I would think it was necessary for us to think we held such significance. This is to say that whatever god revealed, we heard something different. Again the medium can't contain the message. Here god has sent his son to us so isn't it logical we are significant? This would be true except it is god we are talking about. Perhaps the only significance was that Jesus came here and our significance is coincidence or egotism?
 
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quandary121

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Perhaps the only significance was that Jesus came here and our significance is coincidence or egotism?

but you are using Christian beliefs to sustain your argument apart from the biblical references to Jesus we have no real proof of his existence apart from the gospels which were written 1-2 hundred years later.! i admit to you that i believe in god & Jesus myself and that there is undoubtedly proofs of his presence here on earth but can we ever be sure that what we know of his time on earth is accurate ? occasionally things that have been written in the bible have been found or verified.my whole point of this thread is to question what we have been told and to try and see if there is genuine proof of what we have been lead to believe?
 

quandary121

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History, when treated purely as book learning, can be deceptive, for, unlike work in economics, mathematics, or the sciences, the existence of inherent patterns of reasoning may escape the uninitiated almost completely. Thus the mature student reads between the lines in the textbook and sees social forces in action, the complexity of causation in an episode, the strands of continuity, and the relevancy of the past to the present, while the beginner, on the contrary, merely sees facts on a printed page that must be learned. Confronted with phenomena beyond his ability to analyze because he lacks knowledge of the historical approach, the beginner will necessarily memorize capsule versions of generalizations without acquiring the mental capacities which should be a by-product of [study]. He may seek the assistance of outline series, where others have digested the materials for him, and his rote learning gives the illusion of a valid achievement… When the untrained mind must grapple with the broader historical problems, it finds its explanations in certain rudimentary concepts and gross oversimplifications based upon inadequate observation and strong subjective preferences. Among these are the Great Man theory, the single-cause explanation for a complex event, the naïve good-evil or black-white judgment of people and issues, the application of a single formula to all problems, the use of absolutes, and others.
 

quandary121

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Ask a typical Christian (whether layman or church leader) to describe the derivative influences of Attis, Mithras, Tammuz, Bacchus/Dionysus, Osiris, Krishna, Orpheus, Adonis, Hercules, Pythagoras, the Book of Enoch and the writings of Philo of Alexandria on the tradition of Christ and you will get a blank stare. Have them consider the roll of the Mystery Religions on the outer- and inner- meaning of the compiled New Testament and they will shrug their shoulders. Query them regarding the influences of earlier Mesopotamian myths on the construction of the Judeo-Christian Creation and Flood accounts (e.g., the Enuma Elish, the Epic of Gilgamesh) or the theological importance of the Ugaritic texts, the Amarna tablets, the Nag Hammadi library, et al, and you might as well be speaking a foreign language. Such obvious influences are something not readily available or taught in conservative Christian seminaries and colleges, and it is no small wonder. Local heroes and "dying-and-rising" gods, all of who predate Christianity between 100 to 2,500 years, bear more than a striking resemblance to the supposedly unique and factual story of Jesus the Christ. By calling attention to such influences, the seminaries and bible colleges would risk upsetting the status quo, tipping the applecart, and planting seeds of doubt and uncertainty in the church leaders of tomorrow. For the sake of tradition Instructors keep their silence or pretend the long and inflectional histories of these sacrificial god-men do not exist. When confronted with the facts, rarely, occasionally, some fundamentalists may argue that Satan created these earlier versions of dying-resurrecting saviors as a way to confuse the people, an argument so ludicrous as to be beyond the pale of logic and common sense. Which is more probable? That a diabolical being created religious myths of false Christs hundreds of years before the birth of the ‘real' Christ knowing what the real Christ would say and do with the sole purpose of confusing rationalists and skeptics, or that the story of Jesus was supplemented and evolved from older myths and stories of emergent god-men? Which is the simpler explanation by-way-of Occam's Razor? A cosmic supernatural drama with human beings at the center of the tale, or human invention and political interference? Assenting to the argument of "diabolical mimicry" how can we ever be sure the Jesus story itself isn't false, constructed by this same Satan to confuse acceptance of the real Christ who is yet to come, perhaps the true-blue Jewish Messiah? If we can't trust the evidence of the past (and, no, compiled books of magical tales do not qualify as uncontestable evidence), then all knowledge in the present is tenuous and suspect.
 

quandary121

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But we can trust the past, if only we are courageous enough to look there. Fundamentalists who deny the full spectrum of the past are in turn painting over the colors of the present with shades black and white. Considering the history of Israel at the time of Jesus without examining the extensive history and religious customs of Assyria, Babylon, Canaan, Phrygia, Persia, Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece, and Italy would be like writing a dissertation on the American Revolutionary War and only giving a passing reference to the French or British. It could be done, of course, but it would be so lop-sided and revisionist as to be outside the pale of honest inquiry. And yet it is with this very singularity of purpose that Christian fundamentalists use only the bible and a select few documents to reference their supernatural cause (the oft-quoted Josephus comes to mind, never mind the hotly contested interpolations in both the Testimonium Flavianum and The Jewish Antiquities).
What is most amazing about belief doctrine is that you can approach it in any one of ten thousand ways and find enough information on a single track alone to raise nagging doubts as to its legitimacy. Approach it on a second track, or a third, or a fourth, or any one of the other ten thousand angles and each of these should give reason to pause. When taken together, these ten thousand unique approaches reveal a preponderance of information and cogent evidence so overwhelming as to make the continued embrace of said doctrine impossible to the rational believer (after twenty-five years of honest inquiry, I can no more return to believing in the “legitimacy” of Christian doctrine than I could return to believing in the legitimacy of Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, or the Easter Bunny; to do so would be evidence of a denial so ingrained and pathological as to require years of psychological and medicinal treatment).
In light of these available paths of information, how can the believer persist in his or her acceptance of supernatural religious doctrine? It's rather simple:
  • by persisting in the assumption of the validity of religious text at the offset, through
  • a complete lack of knowledge of the ten thousand different avenues of inquiry (whether traveled separately or as a whole) that could invalidate religious texts and contradict church teachings.
 

quandary121

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Why don't most believers know about these ten thousand avenues of inquiry? Because 98% of their church leaders don't know about them, since such things are not typically part of the curriculum or openly discussed in conservative seminaries and bible colleges. Conservative colleges have explicit and unyielding agendas that do not take kindly to deviation outside the “box” (or circle ) of faith of what they consider unquestionable (even infallible ) church doctrine. As such, the plurality of parallels to Jesus in ancient world mythology and the primitive unconscious, astrological speculation, ethical and reform innovations of the time, Jewish scriptural precedent, pagan salvation cults, legendary hero-worship, popular philosophy and literature, creation myths, flood myths, all feed into compiled Christianity—not to mention the fact that alternative interpretations, authorial and textual criticisms, apocryphal and pseudepigraphical writings, revisionist apologetics, deconstructionist dissection, early church history and politics, et al, are not things conservative bible colleges and seminaries readily offer for consideration, especially since these present the very real risk of an inclusive rejection of church doctrine. No, conservative seminaries and bible colleges cannot allow future church leaders to roam the halls armed like liberal renegades with something as potentially destructive as contrary explanations. And so from generation to generation the conservative religious leaders of tomorrow are taught just enough to maintain the status quo, groomed to analyze and preach and argue only what's been safely nestled inside their “box.” In time the world of evidence outside the box is forgotten, ancient myths, primitive customs, pre-existing savior stories, until even conservative professors and deans are no longer acquainted with the sheer bulk and magnitude of what they are not teaching, of what they do not know, having themselves never been taught in a long succession of scheduled silence.
 

Scott Free

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but you are using Christian beliefs to sustain your argument apart from the biblical references to Jesus we have no real proof of his existence apart from the gospels which were written 1-2 hundred years later.! i admit to you that i believe in god & Jesus myself and that there is undoubtedly proofs of his presence here on earth but can we ever be sure that what we know of his time on earth is accurate ? occasionally things that have been written in the bible have been found or verified.my whole point of this thread is to question what we have been told and to try and see if there is genuine proof of what we have been lead to believe?

I meant only to write a rebuttal to the arguments. I have no reason to think the Christian god is anymore probable than any other. I also don't believe Jesus had anything more to do with god than any other philosopher. A prophet IMO is a particularly narcissistic philosopher - nothing more. What keeps anyone who has had a spiritual experience from claiming they are from god, or god talks to them, or anything else so "lofty?" I think humility is all that stands between a great mind and madness.

I am of the opinion that, should there be a god, he, she or it isn't any more likely to talk to us than we are to an ant named Andrew living in Sudan. Andrew can claim he talked to us; he can take a message to his hive, but in reality he is just lucky we didn't step on him.
 

quandary121

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I meant only to write a rebuttal to the arguments. I have no reason to think the Christian god is anymore probable than any other. I also don't believe Jesus had anything more to do with god than any other philosopher. A prophet IMO is a particularly narcissistic philosopher - nothing more. What keeps anyone who has had a spiritual experience from claiming they are from god, or god talks to them, or anything else so "lofty?" I think humility is all that stands between a great mind and madness.

I am of the opinion that, should there be a god, he, she or it isn't any more likely to talk to us than we are to an ant named Andrew living in Sudan. Andrew can claim he talked to us; he can take a message to his hive, but in reality he is just lucky we didn't step on him.

It's not that the churches and seminaries are consciously lying to their wards—it's just that they don't know enough to deliver all the facts or even imagine where and how and what those facts might be. And so it continues from generation to generation in seeming and stultifying perpetuity. The traditions are transmitted safely without second-thought or a care in the world.
What about the 2% of church leaders who have become aware of the ten thousand avenues of inquiry, who are privy to the mostly undisclosed facts (undisclosed at least in organized religious circles)? Some of these are preaching in liberal churches (e.g., Unitarian, Universalist, Free Christian), some are teaching in liberal colleges or universities, some are still ministering in fundamentalist churches and are just now having a crisis of faith, while some have left the church altogether, no longer able to reconcile what they now know with the fuzzy assumptions of supernatural validity.
Despite what some apologists might have you believe, many atheists and agnostics had their beginnings in conservative churches, but their search for truth took them outside the box, beyond the deliberate circle of faith, driven by a dedicated passion for truth that became more important than trying to preserve a system of beliefs based on faith, silence, selective information (or outright misinformation), and the miraculous rescinding of natural law (I myself attended a conservative bible college for on track to become an ordained minister until I could no longer reconcile what I had discovered through private study to what I had been taught, or not taught, in the classroom curriculum). Anyone can talk about modern-day miracles—deaf ears made to hear, blind eyes made to see, crippled limbs made strong and whole, prophecies fulfilled, the dead brought back to life, etc. Talk is cheap after all, and hearsay cheaper. But where are the benefactors of these miracles when the fundamentalists are asked for evidence? Wherein lays verifiable and/or medical proof? One claimant should be enough to silence the rationalists and skeptics. Just one. But one, it seems, may be one too many. Unless an occurrence of miraculous intercession can be verified and confirmed, naturalistic explanations must need prevail.
Occasionally an incident happens that may at first glace appear to be the result of a miracle, but closer examination, sometimes dogged inquiry, reveals the miracle's true source: fraud, psychosomatic illness, trickery, hysterical blindness, Munchausen syndrome, deception, factitious disorder, or Munchausen by proxy. Miracles do not happen within the strict confines of natural law, the naked light of physicality, but exist only in the pages of supernatural books, the fluidity of abstract language, the artifice of words. For several years the James Randi Educational Foundation ( http://www.randi.org) has been offering a million dollars to anyone who can show evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or miraculous power or event. To date no psychic (e.g., James Van Praagh, Sylvia Browne, John Edward, Derek Acorah), faith healer (e.g., Benny Hinn, W.P. Grant, Ralph DiOrio, John Arnott, Leroy Jenkins, Peter Popoff), or supernaturally “healed” fundamentalist has stepped forward to claim the prize. Despite all the comforting words, supernatural claims, stadium meetings, big budget movies, or TBN broadcasts, natural law has not yet been contravened and those million dollars remain safe.
What inspires faith, or rather what incites it, is belief in an afterlife. Never mind there's nothing in the physical world or the mechanics of natural law to support such a claim except sacrosanct promises conveyed in ancient texts (though tradition is no argument, despite what some apologists might have you believe), second-hand stories of black tunnels\white lights\shadowy figures (limbic system reaction to anesthesia or trauma or stress; psychological disorders; fraud and confidence games), or spurious claims of past life regression (via reincarnation), all in direct denial of what we can be empirically aware, might physically touch in regards to death—roadside carrion, the coppery taste of blood in your mouth, cadavers putrefying in zippered body bags, the moldering dead. But belief in an after-life is essential to a fundamentalist's faith, and its purpose is two-fold:
  • It provides the anticipation of Heaven, Eternal Life, One's Just Reward, etc.
  • It promises the threat of Hell, Eternal Punishment, Damnation, Retributive Justice, etc.
How ingenious of church doctrine! Promising a paradise it never has to deliver and threatening a punishment it never has to inflict (to date no one has returned from the dead to make a formal complaint, demand his or her money back, grouse about the squandered years, denounce the celestial promises, the vitriolic threats of the church, etc). According to conservative Christians, we don't need to defer to reason, proof, evidence, logic, critical thinking, or rational thought (after all those things are actually worldly and unsavory). All we have to do is believe. All we need is faith! So what if our religious belief system is ultimately incoherent, illogical, rife with contradiction, and ethically the moral equivalent of the Nazi Holocaust (not possessing a clean bloodline the Jews are carted off to the camps and ovens, and after dying carted off to the fires of Hell because they are not Christians)—what does it matter as long as we are saved? As long as we're in Heaven? As long as we don't have to suffer for all eternity? If our children don't make it, our spouses, our parents, brothers, sisters, friends: no problem! Just as long as we make it! Just as long as the God of Love doesn't inflict his eternal torture on us!
Stated bluntly, faith or belief in an after-life is the single-most cause of suffering and stupidity inflicted upon the human race, by the human race, and for several reasons:
  • It negates the immediacy and value of human life right here and right now.
  • It corrupts the collective unconscious of the species in such a way as to affect behavior. Believing in life-after-death and making the assumption people don't really die, subconsciously legitimizes capital punishment and the death penalty, abortion, territorial wars, religious wars, turf wars, gang wars, terrorist attacks, ethnic cleansing, murder, suicide cults, political assassination, et al, since people aren't really dying after all—they're just continuing on in another stage of existence.
  • It allows people to postpone action in this life (whether humane or humanitarian) in favor of the life yet to come, allowing for political and religious boundaries, derision and division, separatism and succession. Hence there remains global hunger, border skirmishes, illiteracy, disease, poverty and pestilence, all because the problems of this world are deemed ultimately not as important when measured against the life yet to come. With the idea of an after-life always simmering in the back of people's mind, they don't try as hard to really instigate change in this world, strive for peace, alleviate suffering, fight for global changes. After all, eternal life starts at death so why should folks get all worked up over sixty or seventy years?
  • It offers people hope for a solution to their problems at some future time and enables them to not make a conscious effort to begin making the necessary changes or do the necessary work to make things better right here and now. It allows them to postpone taking responsibility for their own lives or education (since god will enlighten them and fix everything once they get to heaven) and permits them to sit on their hands in ignorance and inertia while life passes them by. Why make a serious search for truth if truth will be revealed on the other side?
  • It legitimizes the use of persecution and torture in the name of saving souls for the after-life.
  • It allows religious leaders to control their people by offering hope in the next life, promising rewards, threatening punishment, even sentencing eternal damnation (through papal bulls, excommunication) all by invoking interpreted church doctrine.
  • It assumes a mind-body (or soul-body) dichotomy, a disembodied spirit that is mystically and temporarily ‘housed' in human flesh while blissfully ignoring the inescapable synthesis of each person's material surroundings, environment, cultural prejudices, parental influences and biases, birth order, sex, physical appearance, shape, size, color, health, biochemistry, electrochemical reactions, stored memory, bones, flesh, blood, eyes, ears, mouth, and steady oxygen supply to shape personality. Everything we think we are we owe solely to the state of our flesh and empirical surroundings, a process impossible to remove from the intrinsic network of matter. With all the above in absence, what would remain exactly to “stand” in judgment before the throne of god, and what mechanisms (or lack thereof) would drive interaction with the divine inquisitor?
  • It rewards laziness, complacency, ignorance, superstition, irrationality, religious fervor, and blind faith with promises of an other-wordly victory and assurances of everlasting retribution. No need to accomplish anything of importance here and now—end world hunger, wage global peace, unify polarized religious belief system, teach critical thinking and practical reasoning—since our 'true' lives will start up after we die!
 

quandary121

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If you're like most people you've probably never paid much attention to your thought processes, thinking habits, or belief systems, just assumed they occur naturally and automatically like blinking or breathing. Taking the time to reflect upon thinking and study it seriously, to consider the interconnectedness that influences thought from the individual to society to the species as a whole, is an uncommon trait not shared by most people. Regarding and wrestling with one's mental habits is not something normally taught at home or in school. As children we are not typically given instruction in how we think or why we believe, but rather in what to think and what to believe. We may have even been told the hows and whys will come later, but if they come at all it's usually already too late. The neural channels have been long carved, paved, case-hardened in the flesh of the brain.
By the time we reach a certain age, belief and thought patterns have been deeply rooted along neural branches and we rely upon these patterns to complement reality by charging it with autonomic familiarity and coherence. When we deviate from these patterns by considering new or foreign ideas, our attempts to forge fresh pathways can induce very real physical reactions as the threat of the unfamiliar stimulates biochemical responses. Anxiety, shortness of breath, guilt, fear, blushing, accelerated heartbeat, ringing in the ears, nausea, confusion, a sense of panic—any of these can be symptoms of our straying, however slightly, from familiar avenues of belief, especially those instilled in us (or which we may have instilled ourselves as protective barriers or defense mechanisms) when we were small children.
 

quandary121

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From childhood to adulthood we have churned billions of thoughts, and everything we have done from then until now, everything we have ever wanted or felt or decided, has been directly influenced by our thinking. And yet, despite this preponderance of thought, in spite of being surrounded by it 24/7 (it even invades our sleep in the guise of dreams) most of us have shown very little interest in how and why we think the way we do or how our belief systems came to be constructed. In this way we are like idiot savants, childlike geniuses who can profess inspired words and articulate lofty arguments while lacking the appreciation and discernment of our speech-making in terms of meaning, motivation, and manipulation. With passion and steadfast resolve we believe and espouse, and while we can tell you in whom we believe or what we believe in, please don't ask us to explain how or why.
A small number of us, however, will eventually wander into the realm of how and why, and this alone takes a good deal of courage and determination. Simply stepping in that direction can produce errant fear and existential panic, the chiding of friends, the remonstration of family, and the rebuke of authorities, yet by asking hard questions and seeking tough answers we gradually discover things about ourselves we never before fully recognized. Some of the things we realize are:
  • All of us, somewhere along the line, have acquired faulty thinking habits.
  • All of us make generalizations without the evidence or proof to back them up.
  • All of us are prejudicial and biased in some way, and allow stereotypes to sway our thinking and actions.
  • All of us harbor false beliefs tethered by fear, wishful thinking, ignorance, or laziness.
  • All of us tend to look at the world from a single point of view then ignore or rile against other points of view that are not in agreement.
  • All of us have fabricated myths and illusions to help us better cope with the real world.
  • All of us have accepted myths and illusions in direct conflict with the way we know the real world works.
  • All of us have argued emotionally for the reality of our myths and illusions despite their complete and total absence in the real world.
  • All of us believe we can readily tell fact from fiction and determine the real from the unreal while still clinging to myths and illusions.
  • All of us think deceptively, or allow ourselves to be deceived, if it can mask painful truth, feed hopeful and wishful thinking, fuel fantasies, hide fears, screen low self-esteem, promise the impossible, and reward inexperience, ignorance, and intellectual inertia with promises of karmic justice and paradise.
 

quandary121

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Questions About God

Questions About God

  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]If God has a divine plan/blueprint for the Universe, his plans cannot be changed. If everything works to accomplish God's plan, how does man have free will? - IG [Note: Some pastors do not believe we have free-will at all.][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]When the believer gets to Heaven, how can Heaven be utter bliss when people they love and care about are burning in Hell ? - The Infidel Guy - [Note: Some say God erases your memories of them, but if God erases your memory, you as Mr. Joe /Jane Smoe ceases to exist.][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]How can a God have emotions, i.e. jealousy, anger, sadness, love, etc., if he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent? Emotional states are reactionary for the most part. How can God react to us if he is all-knowing and has a divine plan? - IG [Note: Indeed, many religious texts display their gods this way.][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Why would god send anyone to hell? Based on the belief that god is perfect, then it stands to reason that a perfect being would create only perfection, so I and everyone/thing is perfect and exactly what god wanted. If the perfect being CHOSE to create anything other than perfection - that's his choice, not my fault. - Kandi [Note: Indeed Kandi, Jesus was also supposedly created perfect. I have heard some iterate that Jesus couldn't sin because he was perfect. Sounds as if we were created imperfectly.][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]"God is merciful," we hear quite often. Wouldn't it be more merciful of God to simply snap sinners out of existence rather than send them to hell? Or better yet not create them at all? - IG[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Muslims are supposed to pray 5 times a day, which is based on the position on the Sun. Does this mean that Muslims are stuck on Earth and can't travel in space? - IG [Note: Since this was first posted, a Muslim astronaut was faced with this very dilemma. The authoritative clergy informed him to pray as he normally would. I see this no where in the Koran. You see? Religions must change, or die out.][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Why haven't we seen God reattach a severed head or restore someone who was burned alive? Surely this would be an easy feat to accomplish. - Adam Majors [Note: The typical answer is that man doesn't dictate God's actions. The conundrum here however is that, if God wants us to "know" him, then surely feats such as those mentioned above would be happening all over the world. Until they do, I'll remain an atheist.][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Why does God entrust the spreading of 'His' word to sinners? Why doesn't he do it himself? - IG [Note: Surely God would have known that not everyone would be convinced by the reality[sic] of his Bible. If God loves us so much, we are all going to Heaven. If God knew that I would be an atheist, and he doesn't like atheists, he shouldn't have allowed me to come into existence. But he did. Therefore, I must be serving the will of God, for I exist.:)][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]In II Kings 2-23/24 we read about God sending 2 bears to maul 42 children to death for the sin of calling a guy bald. Is this the Christian morality concept we hear so much about? -- Brandon [Note: I have heard some argue that the boys were a gang. So?! I didn't read anywhere in that passage where they laid a finger on the guy.][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]I have often heard from many believers that even Satan has a presence in the church, which is why even in church people can still have impure thoughts. If Satan can find his way in the church, how do Christians know that Satan didn't find his way into the Bible and twist the whole book? - The Infidel Guy[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Why did God allow Lot and his daughters to escape from Sodom and Gomorra when he destroyed it only to later have Lot and his daughters engage in incestuous fornication. (Genesis 19:30-36) - Disillusioned [Note: To have intercourse with daddy dearest of course.][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Genesis 1:28-29 shows that man and all the animals were first created herbivorous. Most young-earth Christians (ones that believes the earth is less than 10,000 years old) say that the fall of man resulted in carnivorous animals (hence death of animals). So, why did God punish the animal kingdom, making animals kill and devour each other because of man's mistake? Or, if you're an old-earth Christian (one that accepts that animals existed on earth for billions of years before man came on the scene) then how come fossils show carnivorous animals existed before man? - caseagainstfaith@emailias.com.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Many Christians believe that God is a thinking being, that he solves problems and makes a way for them when troubles come. Does God Think? If God is thinking, did he know his thoughts before he thought them? If so, again, where is his freewill and how is God thinking at all if everything seems to be one uncontrollable action/thoughts. - The Infidel Guy [Note: I'd say a God cannot think at all. To do so, would strip him of omniscience. Thinking is a temporal process.][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]I have often heard that faith is all that is neccessary to believe in God and accept the Bible as true. If this is true aren't all supernatural beliefs true since they also require "faith"? - IG[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]ON FAITH[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]1.) A prerequisite to believe in a Faith is faith.[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]2.) Having faith is all that is required to accept a Faith (belief) as true.[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]3.) All Faiths are true.[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][Note: Of course all Faiths aren`t true, but this is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from a person that states that, "Faith" is how one knows God.][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Why didn't God just kill Adam and Eve after the Fall and start from scratch? Actually, if God is all-knowing wouldn't he know that man would need to be killed eventually anyway, (the biblical flood)? Why create Adam and Eve at all? - ALSCARLATA@aol.com and infidelguy@infidelguy.com[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]If a spirit is non-physical but the human body is physical, how does a spirit stay in our bodies? - IG[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]ON SPIRITS[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]1.) Spirits are not physical entities.[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]2.) Brains are physical entities.[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]3.) Past experiences are stored in our physical brains, we call that, Memory..[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]4.) Injury can damage portions of the physical brain that store memory and can alter or erase memories completely.[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]5.) If human spirits exist... after death, spirits can have no memory.[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][Note: Some will say the spirit stores physical memories as well, but if true, the spirit would have to be physical at least to a degree. How could a non-physical spirit store, physical memories?][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Does God know his own future decisions? If God is all-knowing he actually shouldn't have any decisions to make at all. Nor can he choose anything over something else. For that would mean that he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. In fact, he can't even think if this is the case. Since he can't DO anything, he might as well not exist. - IG[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]If God is all-knowing, how could he be disappointed in His creation? -- Pm453ca@aol.com [Note: Indeed, wouldn't God know that before the creation of our Universe what creatures would disappoint him? That being the case why create those creatures at all? Also, in knowing absolutely the behavior of humans before creation, God cannot be disappointed either... for this world is exactly as he has planned it to be. If it's not, why create us at all?][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]God struck down the Tower of Babel angry at the intent of the people that built them, if this is the case, many of the great pyramids (which are bigger than any ziggurat) around the world should be rubble also, yet many still stand today. Were not the Egyptians and many other ancient pyramid builders reaching toward God /The Heavens? - IG [Note: In actuality, many of the Pharaoh's believed that, via their pyramids, they would become God's themselves.][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]In the watchmaker analogy, a watch is used to show us intelligent design and compares that to the Universe as evidence of design. We know watches are designed because we have past experience with watches, as well as with other man made objects. My question is: What Universe is the Intelligent Design proponent using to compare this Universe with to draw such an analogy? What God did he see create a Universe? - IG[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Why did God flood the earth to remove evil? It didn't work! Evil came right back, God should have known that would happen! So why did He bother? - PhineasBg [Note: A good example of how quickly sin returned, was Noah getting drunk just after they discovered land.][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]If the garden of Eden was a perfect paradise as xians claim, then why did Eve even want to eat the fruit? Wouldn't a perfect place provide everything a person would want or desire and thus she would want nothing? - keyser soze [Note: Why were the trees there in the first place? Of course they love to throw the serpent into the equation. But ummm..who let the serpent into the Garden?... and why would God create such a creature knowing he would cause man's fall? Hmm.. God must have wanted the fall to happen.][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Why would an all-powerful god become flesh in order to sacrifice himself to himself so that his creation might escape the wrath of himself. Couldn't god, in his infinite wisdom, come up with something a little more efficient? - Omphaloskeptic2@aol.com[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]After 9/11 a lot of people have been tossing around " god bless america". Why do they keep saying this? From the looks of it god hasn't blessed anything. If god had blessed america, the 9/11 event would've never happened. Theists seem to give the answer of "everything is part of gods big plan". If everything is part of gods big plan, why are we after Bin Laden? Wasn't he and other terrorists just carrying out gods desired plan? So it seems that Bin Laden/ terrorism isnt our enemy, but god . - rsri13@hotmail.com [Note: Unfortunately many religious nuts believe they are fulfilling their God's plan by going to war.][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Christians say that God is NOT the author of confusion. Can you say, Tower of Babel? - The Screaming Monkeys[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]If Noah's flood supposedly covered the earth for a year, regardless of whether or not all the animals could fit on the ark, what the heck happened to all the plants? Can you imagine a cactus surviving under 4 miles of water for a year? I can't either! - Kyle Giblet [Note: With God all things are possible. Oh wait, except in Judges 1:19.][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]The highest rainfall ever recorded in a 24 hour period was 47inches in the Reunion Islands in 1947 (during a severe tropical storm). To cover the whole earth to a depth of 5.6 miles, and cover the mountain tops (i.e. Mount Everest), it would need to rain at a rate of 372 (three hundred and seventy two) inches per hour, over the entire surface of the earth. Can rain fall at such an astronomical rate? Where did all the water come from?? Where did it all go to??? And would not the dynamics of the earth be so out of balance (tides etc.) that the earth would become so unstable that it would wobble off into outer space???? - Richmond1@btinternet.com[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]What do Muslim women get in Heaven? - IG [Note: Some Muslims I have interviewed about this say that Muslim women will get the same thing men get or equal value. :) Oh really? So Muslim women will get 60+ virgin men? lol. If Muslim men get 60+ virgins, where are all these virgin women coming from? What of their freewill? Is Allah creating these women to be slaves to the men in Paradise?][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]In the "Last Days" Jesus is supposed to appear in the clouds. How are the Christians on the opposite end of the world going to see him? Are there going to be millions of Jesus'? What about people that work underground? - Amber Finley[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]The Bible says that God is a jealous God . How is this an example of a moral absolute of which man is supposed to follow? - IG[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]A true Muslim man is not supposed to do anything that the prophet Muhammad didn't do. If one remembers there was a big debate over whether or not Muslims should eat Mangos. If this is true, why in the Hell were these Islamic Fundamentalists flying airplanes? - IG[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]If the earth was covered by a complete global flood, every living creature killed except those surviving on the ark, why are there many completely unique animal species in Australia that are found no where else indigenously on the earth? - mitch@mchsi.com[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]If god is omniscient and " god is love," why would he allow a child to be conceived, knowing that that child would one day reject him and spend eternity burning in a lake of fire?- TiredTurkeyProd[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Revelations is supposed to take place on Earth. What if we colonize the moon or Mars or inhabit a self-sustaining space station? Do we escape "judgement"? -- Ray Sommers [Note: No we don't Ray... and of course we all know that if there is any intelligent life out there besides us, they are all going to Hell too. ;)][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Isaiah 40:28 says, "...the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is he weary?" If this is true, why did God rest on the seventh day?- IG[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Everytime I go to a funeral the preacher and guests always say that " God " has called that person to Heaven or they say, " God said it was time to come home", or some such variation. If God is calling these people "home", why are we putting the murderers of these victims in prison? How can we punish a man or woman for doing God's will? - IG[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Did Adam and Eve have belly buttons? - IG [Note: No, yet, so many Christian book publishers depict them as having them.][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Traditional Jews utilize Yahweh or (YHWH) Jahovah, as Gods name because his true name is supposedly unpronounceable. My question is, how can it be possible that people are using the Lords name in vain when no one can even pronounce it? - IG[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Does God have a gender? In most churches, God is predominately referred to as a "he"? - IG [Note: The Bible says God is male, but what does this mean? Does God have a penis? Does he have hormones that dictate his gender? :)][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Why can't we wait until we get to Heaven to worship God ? - IG[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]What is the purpose of prayer? What can a finite being on Earth possibly tell an omnipotent, omniscient deity that he doesn't know already? - IG[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Some say Jesus was the all-knowing God. Jesus would have known then that when he died he'd be in heaven in less than 3 days to rule. If Jesus is alive and ruling today, what did he sacrifice? -- Cyndy Hammond[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]God knows that men are sinners, untrustworthy and evil, why does God leave it up to fallible man (clergy..etc) to teach others about his word? Why would he put our eternal souls at risk if he loves us so much? - The Infidel Guy and Danno778[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Did Adam have nipples? If so, how did he acquire them? In fact, why would God give "later man" nipples at all? They serve no purpose other than lactation. Some say pleasure. Where is that in Genesis exactly? All mammals have nipples as well, are theirs pleasureful for them too? Many men don't find their nipples pleasurable at all. - IG[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]How did Adam and Eve know it was wrong to disobey God if they hadn't eaten of the tree of knowledge (of good and evil) yet? You can't blame them if they didn't know. - IG[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]If God has such a tremendous problem with uncircumcised penises, why did he make man with foreskin in the first place? - IG [Note: Some say, "So God can recognize his chosen people." Recognize? Is God so stupid that he has to physically look at men's penises? If not God, do other men need to? lol.][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]If reincarnation is real, why is it that our population is growing? Where would the extra "souls" come from? -- Matt Edwards[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Did Noah have fish onboard? Salt or Fresh? Since fresh water fish would die in salt, and salt water fish would die in fresh, only one type of fish would survive. Yet....?" - Frank Monaco[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Why does the omnipotent, omnipresent God need help from man or angels to spread his word or do acts? - IG [Note: Some say God doesn't need help. But apparently he does.][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]How did Jesus ascend to Heaven in the Flesh when Paul says that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of Heaven? (1 Cor.15:50) - IG [Note: Some say, well Paul said that and not Jesus. Yet they quote Paul when it suits there purposes.][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]If God wants us to live right and choose "the good," why did he create evil? (Isaiah 45:6,7) Not to mention he already knows which people are not going to choose "the good" so why create those people in the first place? It seems that many people are born to go to Hell. - IG[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]I hear Christians all the time speaking of a spiritual war between Heaven and Hell, if this is true does God have limitations of power? Man only conducts wars because of our limitations of power and foresight. God has both all-power and all-knowledge, no reason for war of any kind. - IG[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]The Bible is full of phrases beginning with, "and the lord saw". Didn't he know before hand? - IG[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]How can a psychologist condone belief in something not proven to exist, when people are put into mental institutions on a daily basis for the same thing? i.e. aliens, fairies, imaginary people (Multiple Personality Disorders..)? - Dan Denton [Note: I'm sure that some of the pious believe that they are improperly placed there as well Dan. :)][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]If Christians say they know God exists and that he will work miracles, what do they need faith for? Faith is not knowing. - IG[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Brain transplants will eventually be possible, where would the soul be then? - IG[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]If God really wants us to know him, why doesn't he place the knowledge of him in our minds at birth? The same way many theists believe that God implants our sense of right and wrong in us a right birth. - IG[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]If God was Jesus' father (not Joseph), then why is Jesus' family tree traced through Joseph? -- Cyndy Hammond[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]What image of God was man made from? Couldn't have been a moral one or physical one. - IG [Note: One would suspect that an image of God would be perfect and cannot sin. Oops.][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Why can't God appear before everyone at the same time? Everyone in the world would then "know" he exists and not have solely "believe". And please, don't say he already tried that. Surely a God knows exactly what to do to convince a measly human of his existence. - IG[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]If god cast the devil into hell and hell is a place for eternal punishment from which even god cannot seem to grant a pardon, then why do the preachers tell us the devil is walking up and down the hallways of high schools tempting teenagers to do drugs and have pre-marital sex? A warden who allows his prisoners the freedom to go out and kill and rape would be terminated for incompetence. - jshanahan@austin.rr.com[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]According to the New Testament Matthew 5:17 says "Do not suppose that I have come to abolish the Law and the prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to complete. I tell you this: so long as heaven and earth endure, not a letter, not a stroke, will disappear from the Law until all that must happen has Happened." So since Jesus has not returned the "Law" is still in effect, so why aren't we still burning witches, stoning adulterers and disobedient children, killing homosexuals, ostracizing people that work on the Sabbath (nurses, doctors etc.), flinging blood onto the horns of the alter, pulling off the heads of small birds, and don't forget human sacrifice to God (Leviticus 27 P.28 )? -- Sheila L. Chambers[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]If there is freewill in Heaven yet everyone has chosen good and is happy, isn't that proof that God could have made us with freewill, choosing good ( God ) and still being happy on Earth? - Dennis Hendrix [Note: In other words, evil didn't have to exist after all. Hey wait, even in Heaven apparently, evil can exist. At least for a short while. Satan became evil and was in heaven. Apparently he even had enough time to form an Army against God. Wow. Maybe Heaven won't be as peaceful as many believe.][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Why does God have a plan? Man is limited in power so we make plans because we are not all-knowing nor all-powerful. If God has a plan, isn't he reduced to a mere finite being? - IG[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]How could the all-merciful/loving God watch billions of his children burn over and over again for eternity? - IG [Note: Of course this is geared to those that believe in a fiery hell. I am well aware that not all Christians believe in a fiery Hell.][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Before reading and writing were invented (5000BC), on what basis did God use to judge the people who died before the Hebrew and Greek text (BIBLE) were written? -- agent2g@aol.com [Note:They are all roasting in Hell. :)][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Many Christians tell me that I will "burn in hell". If I have a soul, how can a soul burn? Aren't souls non-physical entities? - IG [Note: Some Christians groups believe that you will be given new bodies after judgement. However, if true, what's the significance of a spirit in the first place?][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]How can one hold to the barbaric belief that something has to DIE in order to appease a god for a bad deed? -- Nickolaus Wing [Note: Because an old book says so Nick.][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Why does SIDS (Sudden Infant Death Syndrome) occur? Why would God allow a baby to live for such a short period of time? Why not just let them not be born in the first place? -- Terry Clark [Note: This actually happened to a friend of mine. Not even God himself could console her.][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]If Jesus was nailed and died on Friday evening, and walked out of the tomb on Sunday morning, where's the 3rd NIGHT he predicted? Per Matthew 12:40: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. - buckcash@buckcash.com[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Many Christians claim that hell is merely existence outside of God ’s presence (C.S. Lewis among others). If this is the case, then Jesus could not have descended into hell (being God Himself). As a result, are you sure your sins are forgiven? - Byron Bultsma[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Ten to twenty percent of all women who discover they are pregnant suffer a miscarriage. Also, it is estimated that anywhere from 14 to 50 percent of all pregnancies end in miscarriage. Seeing this is all part of God 's plan, does this make God the world's number one abortion provider? - Jim[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]What if, when you get to Heaven, you saw God causing pain and suffering out of anger or for the purpose of entertaining himself. What if he required people in heaven to praise and worship him non-stop even to the point of causing his worshipers discomfort, pain and boredom. What if, when he was bored, angry, or jealous, he would create natural disasters to make himself feel better. Would you still follow him? - Fernando [Note: Of course they would Fernando, many people followed Hitler out of fear as well.][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]In Leviticus, the bible condemns homosexuality as an "abomination", giving some Christians a reason to hate, harass, torture and kill gays and even picket their funderals with " God hates fags" signs. In the same book of the bible the eating of shellfish is equally an "abomination". Are these Christians planning to go after the patrons of Red Lobster next? - buckcash@buckcash.com [Note: hee-hee, that's all I can say. Jewish Law states that eating Fish without scales is an abomination and thus the Shark is one among the list. However, sharks do have scales, Placoid scales, one of the many reasons why a shark is called a Fish.][/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Christians will tell you that if a baby dies it goes to heaven. Why then are they so against abortion? All the child is being deprived of is the opportunity to go to hell. Either that or god expects unborn fetuses to accept Jesus. - dissolvedego@satannet.org[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]If one could prove to you incontrovertibly that Jesus and God were all human fabrications would still believe? And why? - LOGICnREASON[/FONT]
 

quandary121

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Jesus v. Paul

Jesus v. Paul

Muslims believe that the Gospels are diametrically opposed to the material found in the letters of Paul. To support their assertions they point to many supposed "contradictions" between that which Jesus taught and what Paul wrote, maintaining that these prove the message of Jesus, a true Jewish Pharisee, was not the same as that of Paul's.These are indeed claims which are difficult to take seriously, yet, they demand an answer, nonetheless. For without the authority and authorship of Jesus, Christianity simply would fall apart. If one could show that Jesus brought a different message then Paul, then indeed there would be room for concern.
Upon closer scrutiny of the scriptures, however, we find that Jesus and Paul are not at all in contradiction with one another, and that most of what Paul claims has already been stated before by Jesus and the other disciples, though in a different way. Indeed, what is clear is that Paul was not the founder of Christianity, but its greatest expounder.
D1: Paul was not the first

So where did he get his teaching from? Paul answers that question clearly in Galatians 1:11-12, where he states, "the gospel I preach is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ".In 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 he speaks of receiving from the Lord that which he passes on to them, the Gospel (see also 1 Corinthians 11:23). He carefully points out that these are not things which he invented.
Did Paul begin Christianity in a void? If so, his beliefs couldn't have been there beforehand. Yet, in the book of Acts, Peter, one of Jesus's closest disciples for three years, addresses the gospel, speaking and witnessing the fact of Jesus, his death and resurrection in Acts 2. He continues this witness in Acts 3 and 4, long before Paul even comes onto the scene.
In fact, Paul doesn't enter into the picture until Acts 7, where he witnesses the stoning of Stephen, and then becomes the persecutor of those who were establishing the church. He admits to putting many saints in prison, and casting the vote for their death (Acts 26:9-11); and even tried to destroy the church (Galatians 1).
How can someone become the persecutor of a religion which he is the founder of? If he founded a religion, it couldn't have been there beforehand.
D2: Seeming Contradictions Between Jesus and Paul

D2i: God's Word (Logos)

What about Paul's teachings? Is it contradictory to that of Jesus? Muslims think so. Take the case of God's word. Muslims try to show that Paul preached a religion based on faith in Jesus Christ, whereas Jesus contradicted this by preaching a religion based on following the law of Moses. "The word made flesh and dwelt among us," the idea of Jesus being divine, being God's word himself, and becoming flesh, according to Muslims, could not have come from Jesus, but was invented by Paul. Proof of this, they say, is found in John 12 where Jesus was told what to speak by God, so it could not have been God's word.But it was John, a disciple of Jesus for three years, who heard everything that Jesus said and did, who derived this concept of Logos. The idea is not even mentioned in any of Paul's writings! How could he have invented it?
D2ii: Two Covenants

Let's take another accusation levelled against Paul. In Matthew 5:17-18 Jesus says, "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets". Later, Paul says that Jesus had come to abolish the Law and Prophets (Colossians 2:14). Muslims say Paul is contradicting Jesus here. But is he?According to the Christian scriptures there were two covenants: a) the law of Moses (made up of legal or moral laws as well as ceremonial or ritual laws), and b) the new covenant, which came through Jesus Christ. What Paul is referring to when he says the old law is abolished, are the ceremonial and ritualistic laws which were for the Jews alone (Colossians 2:13- 15). No Syrian or Arab or any other gentile was commanded to keep these laws. Only the Jews were, as it made them distinct from all other people, as the chosen of God. What was abolished were the ceremonial laws which excluded the gentiles from being the people of God. The moral law still holds. Yet, one can be forgiven, if they repent.
Paul and Jesus are not contradicting one another. Jesus was establishing the Moral law in Matthew 5:17. One needs to continue reading from verse 21 and following to see that He then goes on to delineate what those moral laws are.
D2iii: Atonement? The Prodigal Son

The real issue here is whether salvation is attained by keeping the law or by the justification by faith in Jesus Christ alone. As an example, Muslims erroneously point to Jesus's teaching on the Prodigal Son, who was forgiven because of his repentance. They correctly maintain that there is no teaching of atonement here.Paul, however, says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and are justified by a gift. This view of the atonement, they feel, contradicts the teaching of Jesus. But does it?
Consider: all believers are children, and God is their father. No other religion in the world depicts God as father. Islam has 99 names for God, but the name of Father is not one of them. In Islam, believers can only come to God as servants ("att"), which parallels Old Testament teaching.
It is Jesus who introduces God as our father. If God is our father, someone has to be a child. This is the thrust of the Prodigal Son story. The son was not a servant but the man's son. He had status. The reason why the father accepted him was not out of kindness, but because the man was his father. In Galatians 4:4-6, God sent his son, born under the law so that we might receive the full rights of sons. Since we are sons, we can now call him Abba, Father.
Where, if not in the story of the Prodigal son, did the belief of the atonement originate? Consider the story of the last supper found in Matthew 26, Mark 14 and Luke 22, all independent of Paul (Mark's source was Peter). Jesus said the bread was his body, and the wine his blood. How much more plain can you get? That is atonement. Forgiveness comes, thus, through the shedding of his blood. Yet, all Jesus was doing was to confirm something which was there from the beginning, from the story of Cain and Abel, where one sacrifice was accepted and the other rejected. Cain's sacrifice was from his own work, that which he had grown, but Abel offered the blood of the lamb as the hope of his salvation.
"Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin." This principle is found right through the Old Testament. No Jew ever believed that he could attain the forgiveness of sin just by asking for it (see Exodus and Leviticus to see the many sacrifices ordered by God for this very purpose).
Thus, Jesus was now saying that forgiveness could only come through his own blood. Matthew 20:28, John 6:51; and John 10:11 all reveal Jesus speaking of the need for a blood sacrifice, specifically, his blood sacrificed.
This is a point completely lost to Muslims, even though they continue the tradition of sacrificing a goat during the time of Id, though the meaning has been changed to that of remembrance for what Abraham had done earlier. It always puzzles me why Muslims never question the significance for Abraham's sacrifice. Is it no wonder then why they find the idea of atonement so objectionable.
In Ephesians 2:8-10, Paul speaks of salvation by faith, but follows it up with the need to do good works. There is no denial here of good works.
Jesus also speaks of salvation by faith in John 3:14-15. Salvation, thus, comes through faith in Jesus Christ, so that we can receive the spirit of Christ, which then leads us to do good works. Most people want to separate the two ideas, and make them sound contradictory. Yet Paul and Jesus taught both.
D2iv: Inclusive v. Exclusive Gospel

There are other areas of contention between Jesus and Paul which the Muslims like to point to. Jesus, they maintain, says that the gospel must only go to the Jews, while Paul says that the gospel must go to all people. Yet, the last thing Jesus said before he left the earth was, "to go into the whole world and preach the gospel, making disciples of all nations" (Matthew 28:19). The issue here comes back to the old and new covenant again. Under the old covenant only the Jews were considered. That old covenant came to an end the night Jesus broke the bread and offered the wine.Ironically, it was Peter and not Paul who took the gospel to the gentiles first, to Cornelius, before Paul (Acts 10).
D3: Why didn't Jesus call Himself a Christian?

Muslims ask that if Jesus was the founder of Christianity, then where does he refer to himself as a Christian? The point is entirely missed here. Jesus is the Lord of the Christians, not a Christian himself. He is the Christ, acknowledged in Islam as "al-Massihu Issa" (Christ of the Messiah, Issa). The word Christian was not even around during the time of Jesus. In fact the early Christians didn't use this term. They called themselves the Followers of the "Way." It was the followers of Jesus who were called Christians for the first time at Antioch, in Acts.D4: Later changes made by Paul

One of the finest proofs that Jesus founded Christianity comes from these similarities found between the Gospels and Paul's writings which we have just referred to. Christianity basically has two trends or sources from which it derives:
  1. the first are the writings of the disciples, and
  2. the second is Paul's writings.
The disciples are independent of Paul's writings. They use different expressions, yet they all teach the same ideas about Christ. Where, then, did the disciples get their ideas? They couldn't have borrowed it from Paul, as they preceded him. Obviously it came from Jesus himself.
Could, as Muslims claim, Paul have misled all of Jesus's disciples later on? Could he have taken their writings and changed them, so that they coincided with his own? Outside the fact that we have no evidence for earlier writings which may have differed from what is in our possession today, it is incredulous to believe that Paul would want or even dare to conspire against all the other disciples, and change that which they had given their lives to uphold.
Furthermore, John outlived Paul, and Peter lived another 30 years after Jesus. They were there during all of Paul's teaching. If Paul were the founder of Christianity, how did he influence all of Jesus's disciples, without either Peter or John or the other disciples who had been with Jesus knowing about it, or objecting to it?
In Galatians 2, we read that the disciples were suspicious of Paul because he had persecuted them. But when they heard his gospel, they told him to go and preach the same gospel to the gentiles. Why would they welcome him as one of them if he was preaching something contrary to what they were preaching?
E: Conclusion

One can always ask, "Who founded Christianity, Jesus or Paul", or who founded Islam, "Muhammad or Umar", or who founded Judaism, "Moses or Joshua", or who founded Buddhism, "Buddha or Siddharta?" Yet, why is it always Christianity which is labelled with this question?It seems so grossly unlikely that a religion which is focused so uniquely on Jesus, could or should be founded by someone else. All adherents would contend that their religion was founded by God. Perhaps it would be more correct to assert that it was Moses who introduced Judaism, and Muhammad who introduced Islam, Confucius who introduced Confucianism, and Jesus who introduced Christianity.
What so many Muslims miss is the sheer depth of theology in Paul's writings, much of which couldn't have been made up or simply borrowed. For instance, the scriptures speak of the unity of God. Thus, we are monotheists, and we have a complex view of God's monotheism. We believe that God is a triune God; the very word tri-une implies unity. Perhaps Muslims find the doctrine hard to understand; so do most Christians. One would not expect God's essence to be easily explained. But nonetheless it is true, as we see it written all over the pages of scripture.
We need to consider, however, that if Paul was the founder of Christianity, then certainly he should have diverted from this doctrine. Yet, he doesn't, but continues to say the same thing. "A mediator" he writes in Galatians 3:20 "does not represent just one, but God is one." We find this also in Romans 3, and every Christian believes it.
Indeed, Jesus is the founder of Christianity. If the objectionable material (the personal claims of Jesus) are rejected, the teaching of Jesus that remains in the Gospels, not to mention his deeds, become exceedingly difficult to account for and nearly impossible to understand. All that Jesus founded, Paul and Peter and the others merely expounded. Jesus and Paul both taught about: the atonement, the trinity, the church, salvation by faith, the forgiveness of sins through the shedding of his blood, that Jesus was the bread of life which we had to depend on for salvation, and that Jesus was the good shepherd who laid down his life for us.
Jesus, the founder, laid down his life that you might live. Paul, the expounder, laid down his life that you might hear. Are we willing to lay down our lives that others can hear and live as well?
 

quandary121

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When it comes to belief, anything goes. Anything's possible. Most people accept their own beliefs as common and natural occurrences of life, but so too are dreams. Simply dreaming something doesn't make it real or true, and the same can be said of beliefs. Beliefs alone cannot circumvent the laws of physics, defy rational scrutiny, or disregard the rules of evidence. And why is that? Because anyone can believe any darn they want, absolutely anything, without having to ground it in reality or require it adhere to the machinations of the world. If Uncle Max wants to believe that chocolate milk cures cancer, then so be it. Does his belief make it true, no matter how sincerely or earnestly he proclaims it? Absolutely not, because simply believing something true is not enough to mean it's true nor do the extents of one's convictions, personal resolve, or meaningful intentions. More is required, quite obviously, before the passion of belief might be transfigured into the universal likelihood of truth—honest inquiry, for one, and the stringent testing of beliefs using all available information, data, consideration, and evidence.
 

MikeyDB

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And so long as your faiths and beliefs are practiced without impact or interference in everyone else's life...then sure. When compelled by your beliefs to wage mayhem in the name of that belief, acknowledgement of the entire impact on human civilization of the product of ideas and beliefs.... severely limits one's immediate access to tolerance and open-mindedness.....

Supporting the usurpation of human legal process by hiding child molesters in anonymity casts a dim shadow on the "values" or "exression" of these faiths and beliefs.

Accompaning Spanish Conquistadors while slaughtering pagans in the name of "belief" has killed millions of people. Give a complete and entirely factual analysis of the whole of this "belief" and "faith" as practiced up til now. What will become inevitably apparent is that more people have been slaughtered in the name of "beliefs" and "faiths" than have ever been murdered in the "name-of" this or that rationalization..... Tell your story but tell the whole story.
 

quandary121

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And so long as your faiths and beliefs are practiced without impact or interference in everyone else's life...then sure. When compelled by your beliefs to wage mayhem in the name of that belief, acknowledgement of the entire impact on human civilization of the product of ideas and beliefs.... severely limits one's immediate access to tolerance and open-mindedness.....

Supporting the usurpation of human legal process by hiding child molesters in anonymity casts a dim shadow on the "values" or "exression" of these faiths and beliefs.

Accompaning Spanish Conquistadors while slaughtering pagans in the name of "belief" has killed millions of people. Give a complete and entirely factual analysis of the whole of this "belief" and "faith" as practiced up til now. What will become inevitably apparent is that more people have been slaughtered in the name of "beliefs" and "faiths" than have ever been murdered in the "name-of" this or that rationalization..... Tell your story but tell the whole story.

Most believers are unaware of the physical aspects of belief, its biochemical nature, the way the brain functions, how neural pathways are carved and memories retrieved, nor have they considered what it means to believe, the often-prejudicial nature of the belief process or the vital differences between belief and knowledge, desire and truth, indoctrination and investigation. The double-whammy comes when people unquestionably believe in belief itself, as if belief alone is somehow veracious, self-evident, inherently trustworthy, or the very act of believing in something, anything, is all one needs to ensure fidelity, reliability, and certitude. Untested and unreasoned, belief is reduced to a series of presuppositions that falsely predicate a foreknown conclusion, an initiatory assumption of the "way things are" that pursues no verification or validation. In surrendering to this way of thinking, by believing something true is all that's required to make it true, then verification and validation become unnecessary, are pointless and redundant, thank you kindly, end of discussion. When leisurely belief takes precedence over laboring after truth, then reason, rationality, even sanity, are coldly sabotaged and offered as sacrifice upon the stony altar of blind faith.
 

quandary121

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On rarified occasions a believer may find him-or-herself crossing the line and becoming a truth-seeker. Sometimes this process is slow and gradual and extended across several years, while other times it is lightning fast and propelled by either epiphany or event. Usually it is predicated by the believer finally finding the courage to start asking tough questions, to see what underlies the belief process in terms of meaning and motivation, to admit or "fess up" to those niggling doubts eating away at the back of the mind. Anything can set it off: one too many contradictions between the arguments of faith and the evidence of science; one too many contradictions between passages of the sacred writing itself; one too many contradictions between the definitions of the deity and the actions of the deity; one too many contradictions between the translations of the sacred writing, the interpretation of the sacred writing, the versions of the sacred writing, the canon of the sacred writing, the doctrines of the sacred writing, the defending arguments of the sacred writing; one too many contradictions between the sacred writing and other sacred writings, non-sacred writings, myths and legends, archaeological findings, anthropological findings, mythical, biological, historical, geological, astronomical, moral, ethical, scientific findings, etc.
 
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MikeyDB

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Hey JUST A GAWLDURN MINUTE HERE!

I paid Jim Swaggart to gurantee my condo behind them purlly gates an he tole me I was "in" and it only cost me EVERYTHING I OWNED!

Or maybe Oral Roberts and so many other celebrity preachers are simply living the life as they understand the absence of authority and power of a willing however robust self delusion?
 

quandary121

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Hey JUST A GAWLDURN MINUTE HERE!

I paid Jim Swaggart to gurantee my condo behind them purlly gates an he tole me I was "in" and it only cost me EVERYTHING I OWNED!

Or maybe Oral Roberts and so many other celebrity preachers are simply living the life as they understand the absence of authority and power of a willing however robust self delusion?

The Meaning of Life The Meaning of Life is "in the living."
Being alive—today—is the meaning.
Experiencing consciousness, recognizing causality (i.e., cause and effect), deliberating on one's own actions and the results of those actions in an immense universe is the greatest gift there is.
What? Do you want more?
Do you think you deserve more, that there could possibly be something better than living your life to the fullest right here and right now ?
People aren't concerned about their existence (or lack of existence) BEFORE they were born. Why are they so concerned about it AFTER they die?
Denying this life in the here-and-now for a fanciful promise no one has ever experienced is the greatest tragedy of all, and the mother of most of the world's suffering.
"For whoever wants to save his life will lose it..."
Life isn't for saving (you can't 'save it up' or 'keep it safe'); life is for living, and therein lays its real meaning.
So, what is the Meaning of Life after all? Only life itself.
 

quandary121

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The Purpose of Life
The Purpose of Life is to preserve humanity through the enrichment, empowerment, and improvement of each successive generation (or successions of generations, whether familial, local or global) through philosophy, discovery, or invention; to leave behind an aesthetic, utilitarian, or instructive construct that might act as a “stepping stone” in the on-going advancement (whether subtle or not-so-subtle) of successive generations. Because we all die, our purpose is to aid and bootstrap those who will outlive us, who survive us, who by their very youth must move forward and carry on in our absence, and always thus in a long succession of generation to generation. By doing anything less than this, by thinking only of ourselves, our wants and desires, would mean that we would have both lived and died in vain.
The Purpose of Life may be measured against a backdrop of behavior and belief by asking oneself the following questions:
  • Is my current behavior enriching, empowering, or improving life for successive generations?
  • Is by current belief system enriching, empowering, or improving life for successive generations?
  • Is my life-style and are my actions enriching, empowering, or improving life for successive generations?
  • If I were to die today, would I be leaving something behind that could be used to enrich, empower, or improve successive generations?
  • Do my moral and ethical choices enrich, empower, or improve successive generations or are they construed instead of purely selfish reasons, fear of punishment, hope for reward, or fanciful and wishful thinking?
 

MikeyDB

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Thanks for your kind words on my "wall" by the way....

You're missing the point here chum! I'm not saying you shouldn't have your say or state your case....hallejulah all gods chilluns gots opinions......

Just acknowledge that it is in fact no more and no less than PROPAGANDA...... and as POPAGANDA ought not the prudent student apply the most rigorous of logical and evaluative metrics in weighing it?

Why should your SHPIEL merit greater consideration than OH gosh I don't know...say Paris Hilton or O.J. Simpson..... Or any of the Televangelists that have cultivated fear and hatred while collecting millions..... You people lie and you lie all the time....well actually only when your lips are moving.....

Get over yourself!