Bad is sometimes good, yet good, is never bad?

[Gordon J Torture]

You wrote "murder is wrong UNLESS it is in self defense, or you are at war..." In self defence, or in times of war, or various other circumstances, it's by definition not murder

All those circumstances may be perceived differently by each individual subjectively. In addition, I perceive it to be unjust to kill even in self defense 99% of the time, so to me, it is indeed called murder. (The self defense shit, and the list was sarcasm) Nothing anyone can say will change that because those are my beliefs and I am entitled to them.

With that said, am I using the word incorrectly? No ... The problem is, you are thinking in terms of total absolutes.

 

[Jay]

The word murder used here implies the government, or the greater evil, is doing the killing unlawfully, and the people feeding the poor, are perpetuating this continuum, and are involved in the killing

YES! .. That is my perception. That is the way I see it.

The word murder used here implies the government, or the greater evil, is doing the killing unlawfully, and the people feeding the poor, are perpetuating this continuum, and are involved in the killing

YES! .. That is my perception. That is the way I see it.

I know pea, something about disrespect seems to agitate me, I wonder why?

Had the attempt to understand the thread once so ever, been made, after which he pointed out what he perceived as misproper use of a word, that would have been fine. They way he did it, I find disrespectful.

So now we can get beyond this sort of talk, as you see I'm not being disrespectful, and I am going to lengths to understand the thread.

It’s called Mens Rea; a Latin phrase for guilty mind. You are innocent till proven guilty and if you’re found not to have a guilty mind even though a crime has been committed you are still found not guilty (in many cases).

Therefore the helpers of the poor, (even if they are aiding and abetting the evil murderous government), can not be guilty unless they are privy to the plan.

The law can be tricky.

 

[Gordon J Torture]

jay, the English language has many uses outside of a courtroom. The perception of a killing can be considered "murder" by one person, yet just a "killing" by another, simply by a difference in religious beliefs.

 

[Gordon J Torture]

Therefore the helpers of the poor, (even if they are aiding and abetting the evil murderous government), can not be guilty unless they are privy to the plan.

I did not say they were guilty by our current laws. I basically said ignorance should lead to consequences as well. I said they should be guilty, not that they ARE in the current system. The way you are phrasing your points is directly implying things I never said.

 

[Jay]

You wrote "murder is wrong UNLESS it is in self defense, or you are at war..." In self defence, or in times of war, or various other circumstances, it's by definition not murder

All those circumstances may be perceived differently by each individual subjectively. In addition, I perceive it to be unjust to kill even in self defense 99% of the time, so to me, it is indeed called murder. (The self defense shit, and the list was sarcasm) Nothing anyone can say will change that because those are my beliefs and I am entitled to them.

With that said, am I using the word incorrectly? No ... The problem is, you are thinking in terms of total absolutes.

You may be entitled to perceive the word differently, but if you use it in your perception, rather than what ppl are taught that the word means, you may have a problem. Also you might have a hard time convincing a judge that the word really means this, instead of that. It may be true that our system of law (common law) changes, but once it does so, it stays on the books, till it changes again, therefore it is an absolute.

 

[Gordon J Torture]

Jay, why are you only thinking in terms of inside a courtroom?

Also, I am not perceiving the word differently at all, my perception of what is right, and what is wrong is the only thing that is different. My perception of the word "murder" is exactly the same as yours.

 

[Jay]

"Jay, why are you only thinking in terms of inside a courtroom?"

I suppose because of the word we are discussing
"murder".


I think we understand each other now, so there is no need to drag this out further.

 

[Gordon J Torture]

There was no need to drag it out at all.

Morality is subjective.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Nothing anyone can say will change that because those are my beliefs and I am entitled to them.

Certainly you're entitled to your beliefs, but not all beliefs are equally legitimate and some are simply wrong. The fact is you've redefined a word to conform to your beliefs in contrary to its generally accepted meaning both in law and in common usage, so yes, you are using the word incorrectly, and I agree with Jay again, there's no point in dragging this out any further.

 

[Gordon J Torture]

The fact is you've redefined a word to conform to your beliefs in contrary to its generally accepted meaning

No I did not. The meaning of the word is exactly the same, it is only my beliefs that are different, and I am entitled to that.

not all beliefs are equally legitimate and some are simply wrong.

No my friend, ALL beliefs are equal as we all have the right to individual belief. All beliefs effect eachother, thus, all are important, as all people and races are also equally important.

 

[Sy]

RE: Bad is sometimes good

I'm trying really hard here to understand the point of this thread. Gordon are you saying that people should blame the government simply because Murder/Killing and Poverty/Homelessness Charities/other social disfunctions exist? If so, I find it hard to see how a government can in any way shape or form be held accountable for these facets of life since they've been around and existed longer than any government in history, and they will continue to exist until...well who knows until?

If my perception of your point is wrong please let me know.

 

[Gordon J Torture]

Finally, someone who wants to talk about the main point. You have shown me respect and for that I thank you.

I am saying people should put more effort into aquiring knowledge about things they choose to participate in. People must educate themselves, and if they choose not to, should deal with whatever consequences are being dealt to those they inadvertently helped with their ignorance.

***Also, this wasn't meant to be a politcal thread, but instead more of a philosophical one. That is why it is in this forum. Most of my references were metaphorical.

 

[Sy]

RE: Bad is sometimes good

I completely agree people as a whole and as individuals must educate themselves before beginning virtually any endeavour. It's a shame, though, that even after learning of certain potential consequences people continue to pursue these endeavours until completion.

All the talk of legality and meaning throughout this thread misses the point entirely. Our law has a definition of murder, but would ANY lawyer, politician or (to a lesser extent) corporate CEO use that definition to describe all of the environmental destruction that occurs every day in the name of the all mighty dollar? Birds, trees, rivers, fish, Nature in general is Killed in the process of urban sprawl but not one of the above mentioned classes would call it murder. The sad part is that these deaths occur by so called "educated" people and instead of realizing the problem they only add to it.

However from the other side of the spectrum you can't blame these people for trying to make the world a better place to live. Eventually we'll have 90% of all land covered in cement and the word "Nature" will have lost virtually all meaning...but that's life right?

 

[Gordon J Torture]

Wow! .. Great points .. See, this is the type of discussion I was looking for!

However from the other side of the spectrum you can't blame these people for trying to make the world a better place to live

Actually, don't you think most of those people are simply trying to make their own homes and their own cars better?

 

[Twila]

RE: Bad is sometimes good

However from the other side of the spectrum you can't blame these people for trying to make the world a better place to live.

I don't believe people are trying to make the world a better place. I think they're just trying to accumulate as much money as possible so they can do the least amount of work so they can sit around and get fat and lazy.....

 

[Sy]

Actually, don't you think most of those people are simply trying to make their own homes and their own cars better?

True enough, i'm sure...but have you ever owned a business? I'd have to say the more successful a business becomes the easier it is to acquire better things.

I don't want to call a CEO a bad person for owning and operating a company, but it's the "corporation" aspect that generate public opinion. Microsoft employs thousands of people worldwide, donates to all kinds of charities and their products are world renowned for being easy and intuitive. Yet because of them being a corporation they have a bad name and people remain ignorant to the good they actually do. Now, does this in anyway excuse them from the destruction of land and animals that their office buildings and complexes enacted during their creation? Legally yes, but only time will tell if that destruction was a step in the right or wrong direction.

I have to admit I'm not enlightened enough to understand how business and nature can live hand in hand, symbiotically as it were, but I'm sure there is a way. There must be. Gord what do you think? or anyone else?

 

[Derry McKinney]

True enough, i'm sure...but have you ever owned a business?

Yup.

I have to admit I'm not enlightened enough to understand how business and nature can live hand in hand, symbiotically as it were, but I'm sure there is a way. There must be.

There is. We've given corporations the same rights as individuals...a convenient legal fiction. Now we have to make them behave as individuals. That means they have to be responsible. If they won't be, those in charge of those corporations have to be held personally responsible.

 

[Gordon J Torture]

Yet because of them being a corporation they have a bad name and people remain ignorant to the good they actually do

First of all, they do not do nearly as much good as they could, but that is an argument that will go nowhere.

Second, their intent for donating to charity is not out of the goodness of their hearts, trust me.

 

[Gordon J Torture]

I have to admit I'm not enlightened enough to understand how business and nature can live hand in hand, symbiotically as it were, but I'm sure there is a way. There must be. Gord what do you think? or anyone else?

I think, the time it takes to tell, is much longer then our short lives will allow us to live. At best, it will provide more overall positivity in the short-term, but in the long, it will be nothing but negative.