Another News Flash; God isn't dead. He never existed.
- Thread starter mrgrumpy
- Start date
Maybe not necessary. But there might very well be a usefulness to the hypothesis that the universe if conscious.
Let's say it is conscious. Taking for granted that it's not conscious (like you do) severely limits the possibility for us to eventually have a significant and tangible communication with it. If we don't listen for something, we have less chances of hearing it. If we don't look for something, we have less chances of finding it.
When you are observing at something you don't quite understand, whether or not this thing is the result of willful intelligence or not is a pretty big deal if you want to understand it. If we constantly stick to the idea that the universe is 'dead', or lifeless, than we might never truly understand it and its purpose. Again, I repeat my own view that I'm not comfortable assuming I have will and purpose while the Universe doesn't.
I'll repeat what I mentionned in a previous post in this thread. To be conscious, a being doesn't need ALL its parts to participate in the act of consciousness... Dexter's toe nail doesn't have a meaningful role in Dexter's consciousness, yet we say that Dexter Sinister IS conscious. In the same way, we as humans could be the consciousness of the Universe, making it conscious. Following the metaphor, the surrounding universe is our body! But you know me, that's just a crazy metaphor... or is it?
I never claimed the Universe is conscious. That is what I tend to believe because it fits my world view and philosophical understanding of life and reality. Mrgrumpy is the one claiming that the universe isn't conscious and all I'm saying is that you can't make that claim, It's an assumption.
Last edited:
Assumptions are based on observable and measurable information. Has there been ANY observable phenomena EVER that the universe is conscious?
It provides an adequate framework, in which man can write books, make music, express emotions, create ideas, et cetera et cetera. Can you do the same on the same scale, with your level of consciousness? I highly doubt that.
And if we suppose that the existence of such a framework, or environment, is due only to a chance chain of events, then we will have to go on reasoning in the same way, and declare that everything ever achieved by human kind is just a chance chain of events, unsupported by any conscious effort whatsoever.
It always makes me sad to read words similar to those you have written. A couple of millennia ago a handful of humans decided that humans are the only species that have got "a soul", and that the rest are not to be considered. This misconception grew and became stronger, and just look where it has lead us. The contamination of air, water and soil, the total disappearance of some species, the ecological catastophe that we are facing were gradually brought about by those, who, like you, believed that "The universe has no consciousness - its' all gas, gravity, dark matter and physics.
Any wishful dreams about inherent intelligence are just that."
Isn't it time to stop and reconsider?
Show me this "gravity" and "dark matter". What is this "gas" and "physics"? Remember though, if I don't see it, I won'[t believe it, and if I can't understand it, I wont believe it.
The whole wide world is right there animating itself in front of your eyes, but are they open? It's largely subjective whether or not you want to see the world as passive and lifeless or filled with a deeply creative and intelligence. I think you're deluded by thinking you have the intellectual high ground on this issue. You think you have a grasp of objectivity but you make the ultimate subjective affirmation by saying the world beyond yourself is nothing else but physics and chemistry. What you're really saying is that humans are the only ones who have the capacity of giving meaning and purpose to reality.
The great irony is that you describe yourself as a conscious being with willful intent but fail to logically demonstrate how your consciousness could be anything else than the result of the lifeless mechanics you see in the outside world. It's as if you were magically isolated from these lifeless mechanics and that your own consciousness had the right to be overlooked by your thought system.
You see deep intelligence in an orchestral symphony, yet refuse to see even an ounce of intelligence in the rich and complex interactions of the Earth's ecosystem.
You see deep intelligence in computer technology, invented by man, yet refuse to see intelligence in the principles and universal laws that permit such a technology to exist.
Don't get me wrong, I understand why we must be very careful about projecting personal views and wishes onto the world. You like to think rigorously and critically and that certainly is a healthy way to think. You want to avoid anthropomorphism by making sure we don't project any human characteristics and qualities onto the outside world. But I think you're taking your view much too far by saying the universe is nothing else but a slave to laws of physics, gravity and chemistry. You're assuming that the human mind is the exclusive source of meaning and purpose and that the universe, from which you are the offspring, lacks what you possess. Isn't this the ultimate human hubris? To think you are superior to the rest of the universe because you see yourself (and other humans) as the only one gifted with true consciousness?
Good points Vereya... With the rise of rational and scientific thought, we've greatly empowered ourselves because we now have, more than ever, the capacity to impose our will on our environment. But at what price? By seeing the world as a soulless mechanic machine, we've objectified it and have lost respect for it. We'll be the ultimate losers if we stick to this view for too long.
Actually, yes, one can. It's not logically correct that you can't prove a negative. One of the rules of logic is the law of non-contradiction: a proposition cannot be both true and not true. That's a negative, and it's provable. Moreover, any claim can be stated as a negative. Any proposition, call it P as logicians usually do, can also be stated as a double negative, not-not-P. If you can prove some proposition P is true, you can also prove it as a negative, that it's not false.
What that "you can't prove a negative" really means is that no inductive argument can prove a negative. But really, an inductive argument can't prove anything, inductive arguments just make a conclusion probable, not provable. "Every swan I've ever seen was white, therefore all swans are white" is a valid inductive argument, but it doesn't prove all swans are white, it's just a statement of probability, and in fact there are black swans native to Australia, so the argument is inductively valid but falsified by new information: all observed swans are not white.
If God never existed, or if God isn't dead, which in its self a paradox question goes to show that even amongst yourselves there is argument.
Why not just simply settle the whole question and say, Yes, God is the author and creator of all there is, and how wonderfully, amazing and beautiful is all His creation.
Does not the stars, the planets, the orderly arrangement of things give give us a clue?
I mean, look around you, the billions of plants, their life cycles, the rhythm of their beings, the system of water flow from Ocean to clouds to rain to streams, to rivers and back to the ocean.
Come on folks, are we so smart to think that it all just came into play all by its self?
No wonder Jesus said, "suffer not the children to come to me" for such are in the kingdom of heaven.
Mankind's minds become polluted to where they can not see again as a child, but as polluted minds become blind to the simple truths.
All the sciences are merely for mankind's entertainment and enjoyment. For learning and experiencing, and unless God reveals a secret or two, remedies for sickness and deceases are not forthcoming.
I want you all to consider this words of truth given to us by the one who knows us all best:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
Now if that verse does not say it all, then, I dare say, a wise man is a fool.
Commentary excerpt: Barnes
Ecc 2:12-26 -
Solomon having found that wisdom and folly agree in being subject to vanity, now contrasts one with the other Ecc_2:13. Both are brought under vanity by events Ecc_2:14 which come on the wise man and the feel alike from without - death and oblivion Ecc_2:16, uncertainty Ecc_2:19, disappointment Ecc_2:21 - all happening by an external law beyond human control. Amidst this vanity, the good (see Ecc_2:10 note) that accrues to man, is the pleasure felt Ecc_2:24-26 in receiving God’s gifts, and in working with and for them.
Peace>>>AJ
Why not just simply settle the whole question and say, Yes, God is the author and creator of all there is, and how wonderfully, amazing and beautiful is all His creation.
Does not the stars, the planets, the orderly arrangement of things give give us a clue?
I mean, look around you, the billions of plants, their life cycles, the rhythm of their beings, the system of water flow from Ocean to clouds to rain to streams, to rivers and back to the ocean.
Come on folks, are we so smart to think that it all just came into play all by its self?
No wonder Jesus said, "suffer not the children to come to me" for such are in the kingdom of heaven.
Mankind's minds become polluted to where they can not see again as a child, but as polluted minds become blind to the simple truths.
All the sciences are merely for mankind's entertainment and enjoyment. For learning and experiencing, and unless God reveals a secret or two, remedies for sickness and deceases are not forthcoming.
I want you all to consider this words of truth given to us by the one who knows us all best:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
Now if that verse does not say it all, then, I dare say, a wise man is a fool.
Commentary excerpt: Barnes
Ecc 2:12-26 -
Solomon having found that wisdom and folly agree in being subject to vanity, now contrasts one with the other Ecc_2:13. Both are brought under vanity by events Ecc_2:14 which come on the wise man and the feel alike from without - death and oblivion Ecc_2:16, uncertainty Ecc_2:19, disappointment Ecc_2:21 - all happening by an external law beyond human control. Amidst this vanity, the good (see Ecc_2:10 note) that accrues to man, is the pleasure felt Ecc_2:24-26 in receiving God’s gifts, and in working with and for them.
Peace>>>AJ
Right ON Look....
I'll begin work on my monument to homophobia that's "god's will" as expounded by religious doctrine. I'll accept that it's appropriate and once again "gods will" that I exclude women from religious expression. Hell if I can, I'll start hanging folk in the town square where "good" Baptist folk used to gather to watch the lynchings....
Sign me up Look.....
Your alternatingly ambibalent super-being (simultaneously wrathful and loving, kind and punnishing, omnipotent but not responsible for Hell or evil....
Great stuff!
I'll begin work on my monument to homophobia that's "god's will" as expounded by religious doctrine. I'll accept that it's appropriate and once again "gods will" that I exclude women from religious expression. Hell if I can, I'll start hanging folk in the town square where "good" Baptist folk used to gather to watch the lynchings....
Sign me up Look.....
Your alternatingly ambibalent super-being (simultaneously wrathful and loving, kind and punnishing, omnipotent but not responsible for Hell or evil....
Great stuff!
My dreams seem to take me to dimensions that I have never witnessed on earth, I am able to get from A to B without time or effort, and I love it. I want to dream my life away, as I prefer dreaming than the realities of this world. It's like being in a "healthier" state.
The other night I was getting a massage from my man, and my mind totally relaxed to the dream dimension, yet I was somewhat alert, I was going places without effort, I even smelled soothing odours that were not present in the room. It was an experience that I had not had before, it encouraged me to meditate more. Perhaps it was his comforting touch that aided me to relax to such a level, perhaps the souls I saw were able to contact me easier because of my state, I don't know, but, I want more experiences like that!
I don't believe "God" was there....thank goodness...as I am a firm believer that if there is a "God" he is a sadist.
The other night I was getting a massage from my man, and my mind totally relaxed to the dream dimension, yet I was somewhat alert, I was going places without effort, I even smelled soothing odours that were not present in the room. It was an experience that I had not had before, it encouraged me to meditate more. Perhaps it was his comforting touch that aided me to relax to such a level, perhaps the souls I saw were able to contact me easier because of my state, I don't know, but, I want more experiences like that!
I don't believe "God" was there....thank goodness...as I am a firm believer that if there is a "God" he is a sadist.
Gotta love ya, MikeyDB
Your genuine.
Hey, misled folks are responsible for their own actions, and God is not to blame.
Even a godless house hold may know to treat folk right.
I wondered at an 18 year old girl who thought Sunday school for many years to have fallen prey to Jim Jones' propaganda, to finally wind up dead in the Jim Jones massacre at Guyana.
That was for me a very big question that I struggled to understand. How could a mind be manipulated to believe something that went contrary to sound principles?
My conclusion was that the mind is easy to manipulate, given the right information, to where if not grounded in sound principles, can be led astray at great peril.
I am not taken by anybodies views unless I first try them against that which I have learned by trial and error and by my parents up bringing.
God is my grounding principle, which is a complete trust in Jesus Christ to where my understanding has been enlightened.
I will allow anybody to believe what they will, trust whom they want and live how they want.
I will Lynch no one, burn no one at the stake and shove my beliefs down anybodies throat.
I simple share what I know to be right by me with great esteem for my fellow mankind giving them every opportunity to express themselves to how they see fit.
If, in my sharing, I can help make someones life take a better course, then I am trilled.
So, truck on.
Peace>>>AJ
Your genuine.
Hey, misled folks are responsible for their own actions, and God is not to blame.
Even a godless house hold may know to treat folk right.
I wondered at an 18 year old girl who thought Sunday school for many years to have fallen prey to Jim Jones' propaganda, to finally wind up dead in the Jim Jones massacre at Guyana.
That was for me a very big question that I struggled to understand. How could a mind be manipulated to believe something that went contrary to sound principles?
My conclusion was that the mind is easy to manipulate, given the right information, to where if not grounded in sound principles, can be led astray at great peril.
I am not taken by anybodies views unless I first try them against that which I have learned by trial and error and by my parents up bringing.
God is my grounding principle, which is a complete trust in Jesus Christ to where my understanding has been enlightened.
I will allow anybody to believe what they will, trust whom they want and live how they want.
I will Lynch no one, burn no one at the stake and shove my beliefs down anybodies throat.
I simple share what I know to be right by me with great esteem for my fellow mankind giving them every opportunity to express themselves to how they see fit.
If, in my sharing, I can help make someones life take a better course, then I am trilled.
So, truck on.
Peace>>>AJ
If that works for you, and still be able to live right, be good to your neighbor, then you are a good individual.
Life is all about learning to share, to care and lift people up who are down trodden.
For only on those conditions can you or I find the beginnings of what doing good is.
Peace>>>AJ
I do live right, I am an awesome neighbour and friend, I share, I lift people up when they are down, I am grateful, and, I don't have to know people to be compassionate towards them.....God has nothing to do with who I am, I'll take the credit thanks! I thank my parents, experiences, and the people who have given me the tools and lessons that helped me become who I am, not God. "The beginnings of what doing good is" started as soon as I knew the difference between good and bad.
Well, my friend, I tip my hat to you, for you have managed the tree of good and evil well.
That is what is expected, but many come short of it.
Peace>>>AJ