Analyzing Health Care

[I think not]

We can't make a comparison of costs to "consumer" then blue. You saw from the lists before what the averages are per state and national averages, HOWEVER, the US health care is a mix of public and private, so to say it costs an individual $2261 annually is not accurate either since a portion of the taxes goes to public health care.

If we use health care costs per capita that isn't an accurate assessment either because health care costs increase in the US but the taxes do not, so I'm sort of stuck here.

 

[bluealberta]

We can't make a comparison of costs to "consumer" then blue. You saw from the lists before what the averages are per state and national averages, HOWEVER, the US health care is a mix of public and private, so to say it costs an individual $2261 annually is not accurate either since a portion of the taxes goes to public health care.

If we use health care costs per capita that isn't an accurate assessment either because health care costs increase in the US but the taxes do not, so I'm sort of stuck here.

Well, there are two, I think, provinces who have health care premiums over and above the tax component, Alberta and Ontario. In Alberta, family coverage is approx. $1,000 per year, just slightly less, I believe. I don't know what it is in Ontario. So, if that helps at all, we pay $1000 for Alberta Health Care, plus our contributions by way of taxes. Damn, I wish I could find out what percentage of taxes collected actually goes to health care. Leave that with me and I will see what I can find. If there is one thing Canadians are anal about it is stats. Probably comes from being hockey fans, this year excepted. I'll get back to you, but maybe this info will help for now, and maybe someone in Ontario can provide their cost for OHIP, I think its called.

 

[bluealberta]

I think NOt

It appears that only you and I really care about the health care issue. That could be because you are providing information that disputes all the crap the leftists put out here in Canada about how bad the US System is and how good ?? ours is. Anyway, thanks for what you did.

 

[I think not]

It sort of sucks nobody wants to participate, I have much to learn from the Canadian aspect of health care, I find the fundamental principles to be noble, but it has inherent flaws as the US system does.

The biggest issue in th eUS are the uninsured and the overall costs as a "system". Other than that, those insured certainly have access to top notch health care.

Regarding the uninsured in the US, the number has swelled to 45 million. What is more interesting is when you breakdown the numbers. The Actuarial Research Corporation (ARC) estimates that about 9 million of these individuals actually were enrolled in Medicaid, but were categorized as uninsured in the Census survey. In the latest Census health insurance report, the Census Bureau acknowledges that the survey “…underreports Medicare and Medicaid coverage compared with enrollment and participation data from the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS).”According to ARC, this “Medicaid undercount” leads to an over-assessment of the uninsured population and needs to be taken into consideration when developing uninsured estimates.

While this view is shared by some policy analysts, others disagree and there is no consensus. It is important that this issue be resolved so that targeted solutions for the uninsured can be developed based on the most accurate data possible.

Interesting isn't it? And thats just one example.

 

[bluealberta]

So if you are to believe the first statistic, the actual uninsured are around 35 million? And if I recall correctly, thise have access to the 1871 community hospitals or clinics around the country?

Here is another interesting stat that was just reported in the Calgary, Alberta news today. A new MRI machine has recently opened, in a private facility, if I remember right, and this one machine alone has reduced the wait times for an MRI exam from over 60 days to about 31 days, or roughly half. To me, this point out the total fallacy of the argument that private health care will ruin our system. Even if this was a facility that charged full pop for the exam, which it cannot under law, but even if it was, do you suppose the person who originally was told they would have to wait 60 days and now can have it in a month really cares if someone jumped out of the public health line into another line, thus shortening the public line? I have never understood the reluctance of the leftists to recognise this, but then there is a lot about the leftists that baffle the hell out of me. :wink:

 

[I think not]

Another stat blue, another 14 million are reachable through public programs in the US. They have access to it and dont know it. Medicaid and SCHIP (State sponsored)

 

[bluealberta]

Another stat blue, another 14 million are reachable through public programs in the US. They have access to it and dont know it. Medicaid and SCHIP (State sponsored)

So the actual number of uninsured, if I have done the connecting math correctly, now would be in the 20-25 million range? And these would still receive medical care without cost at the public hospitals or clinics?

Not do diminish the 20-25 million, because it is still a lot, but it is a far cry from the 40 million consistently quoted by opponenets.

I really think both our countries need to explore a mix of public and private health care delivery to be as efficient as possible with the lowest cost possible. However, the mindset in Canada at present prevents even a discussion being started that includes private health care delivery as an option, even though about 40% of our health care is private now. This paradox is what drives people like me around the bend when discussing health care. The response is: "Yes, Health care needs reforms because there are problems, but do not even consider Private Health Care Delivery as an option". There are only two ways to decrease the waiting times we have in Canada, and they are tied together. We need more facilities and more health care practioners. One without the other is useless. And the cost to the taxpayer to build more facilities is enormous.

 

[Reverend Blair]

There are plenty of ways to reduce wait times, Blue. The ones that include allowing your coveted private care have been shown to push per capita costs up considerably while taking the best doctors out of the public system.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: Analyzing Health Care

There are plenty of ways to reduce wait times, Blue. The ones that include allowing your coveted private care have been shown to push per capita costs up considerably while taking the best doctors out of the public system.

Damn,and just when there was an actually civilized discussion between people about ideas to reform health care. If you care to read everything, I said that more facilities without more doctors does not make sense, just as more doctors without facilities makes no sense. BTW, a doctor does not operate an MRI machine, so your argument there is moot.

Why do you insist on letting people die waiting for services when there are other options available that will reduce wait times? What solutions do you have that would decrease wait times? And please, don't give the usual simplistic answer about building more hospitals with public funds. There are already facilities out there that can be used without building more. And even if you want to build more hospitals, that will obviously take money from somewhere else in the health care system, or are you advocating increasing taxes even further to build these buildings?

Of course, if the gun registry had not had an overrun from $2milion to $2billion, we could have used some of that money. If we had not lost $2billion on the HRDC boondoggle, we could have used that money. If we did not currently have a $46billion dollar surplus in the EI fund taken from employers and employees we could have used some of that money. If the Liberals had not been caught with their hands in the cookie jar taking millions of dollars, we could have used that money. If the Liberals had not cancelled a helicopter purchase costing us millions of dollars, we could have used that money. And so on.

But then again, why look at any of that, lets just tax the hell out of the citizens because some of them are so stupid that the Liberals can do all the above and still get reelected. Of course, when there are others in the country who will blame the conservatives for all the above, then the Liberals know for sure that Barnum was right about suckers.

 

[Reverend Blair]

:roll: Whatever, Blue.

 

[no1important]

You said your wife had to wait 1.5 hours for an X-Ray.

Well Blue with all the money you always brag about that Alberta has, why doesn't Klein put more money into Health Care?

 

[I think not]

no1, you're from Vancouver, have you ever experienced problems with the health care system? Just curious.

 

[jackd]

Some of the previous comments on the Canadian health care system earlier reported as being "facts" are erroneous.
* The Canadian health care system is in fact the sum of 12 PROVINCIAL programs. The Federal government only set-up some of the guidelines whereas everything else in under provincial jurisdiction. The Federal government only contributes to about 18% of the costs.

Access to some high-tech procedures has been limited by a shortage of equipment and hospital beds

Not true in major centers. Don't forget Canada is a very sparsely populated country. It would simply not make sense to have all the high tech equipments and large centers in every small communities across the country. This situation does not exists in the U.S. with 10 times more population on a smaller territory.

Private insurance for covered care is not permitted

Not true in every provinces. Some provinces allow for private clinics to provide care and charge the patient for such care, even if they are covered by the system. The costs of cares provided by private clinics/hospitals are deductible from income tax.
Total costs: In every single province, the real public costs of our health care system are identified to the last penny, as everything is paid for from the general funds. It is not so in the U.S. as there are thousands of different programs, insurances companies involved, individual payments, etc. Don't forget to add to the U.S. costs the cost of the millions of personal bankruptcies attributable to hospital/doctors bills.
here's a comparison of costs in different countries.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/hea_hea_car_fun_tot_per_cap&id=OECD

 

[I think not]

Some of the previous comments on the Canadian health care system earlier reported as being "facts" are erroneous.
* The Canadian health care system is in fact the sum of 12 PROVINCIAL programs. The Federal government only set-up some of the guidelines whereas everything else in under provincial jurisdiction. The Federal government only contributes to about 18% of the costs.

I wasn't specific on that, but yes I am aware of that fact.

Access to some high-tech procedures has been limited by a shortage of equipment and hospital beds

Not true in major centers. Don't forget Canada is a very sparsely populated country. It would simply not make sense to have all the high tech equipments and large centers in every small communities across the country. This situation does not exists in the U.S. with 10 times more population on a smaller territory.

Actually even the Romanow report states that the lack of high-tech procedures and shortage of equipment is widespread.

Private insurance for covered care is not permitted

Not true in every provinces. Some provinces allow for private clinics to provide care and charge the patient for such care, even if they are covered by the system. The costs of cares provided by private clinics/hospitals are deductible from income tax.

Are the deductions of helath care costs a fact in Quebec or in all provinces?

Total costs: In every single province, the real public costs of our health care system are identified to the last penny, as everything is paid for from the general funds. It is not so in the U.S. as there are thousands of different programs, insurances companies involved, individual payments, etc. Don't forget to add to the U.S. costs the cost of the millions of personal bankruptcies attributable to hospital/doctors bills.
here's a comparison of costs in different countries.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/hea_hea_car_fun_tot_per_cap&id=OECD

We're also trying to determine the costs per individual, do you have any data on that? How much of the Canadian tax goes to health care and what are the direct costs to the individual? We're trying to get a frame of reference we can work with on an individual basis as opposed to per capita costs.

 

[jackd]

Actually even the Romanow report states that the lack of high-tech procedures and shortage of equipment is widespread

Romanow should have looked at what's going on in other OECD countries instead of looking at data from the U.S. only.
Comparing the number of high tech equipment (MIR, CT scanners, Radiation therapy, Lithotrepter, etc) with other OECD countries, show we are about average. The number of high tech procedures and equipments is not necessarily the criteria to refer to in terms of health care treatment adequacy. Life expectancy, infant mortality rate, general population health condition are all showing better results in Canada.

Are the deductions of health care costs a fact in Quebec or in all provinces?

There are some variances between provinces, but generally, it is the same. Only Quebec residents fill a separate provincial income tax return.

How much of the Canadian tax goes to health care and what are the direct costs to the individual?

For 2003, total health expenditures in Canada were at $103.5Billions, or $3,300. per capita. This includes everything, including drugs (prescription or not, plastic surgery for this woman who does not like her nose, long-term care for the elders, etc. etc)Note: All drugs used by patient while in hospitals are covered by the public system. In addition, drugs are free, or discounted, for all citizens who are below a certain income level, which is also part of the total costs mentioned above. Public funding accounted for 74.6% of the total while 25.4% were financed privately through supplementary insurance, employer-sponsored programs or out-of pocket expenditures.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: Analyzing Health Care

You said your wife had to wait 1.5 hours for an X-Ray.

Well Blue with all the money you always brag about that Alberta has, why doesn't Klein put more money into Health Care?

Because every time he tries to do something with health care, the feds jump down his throat. We would love him to use some of the transfer payments in Alberta to improve not only health care, but to make the education system even better than it already is, to use it on infrastructure for roads, etc. I myself am now on a waiting list for an MRI which is now scheduled until early August. If anyone suggests that maybe a private clinic be allowed to operat an MRI machine, paid for from the public health care system, people on the left go beserk when all that new clinic would do would be to provide another outlet. Anyone doing math can see that having two machines instead of one cuts the waiting times in half. And I am not suggesting that people buy the appointment. All I am saying is that the line can be split two ways instead of everyone in the same line.

 

[Reverend Blair]

So why doesn't Ralphie take some of your riches and buy an MRI machine? Nobody in Ottawa or anywhere else is stopping him from setting up a public clinic.

 

[I think not]

Life expectancy, infant mortality rate, general population health condition are all showing better results in Canada.

Actually Jackd, all those three reasons have alot to do with the way of life and not soley attributable to health care.

As the Canadian population gets more obese (which is happening in Canada also lately), this life expectancy and general health condition statistic will go down rapidly.

In addition race plays a significant role in health also which directly affects the infant mortality rate and life exptancy. And let me be clear what I mean by race, so I won't be labeled a racist (I know a few that would hop on this). Race in health reflects inherited susceptibility to disease.

Twenty percent of the US population is African-American (60 million, which has shown to have certain susceptibility to certain diseases). Canadas black population is nowhere near this percentage. And I mention this because looking on the shallow top without looking more in depth creates misinformation and assumptions regarding health care. The life expectancy of black men and women continues to lag 6-7 years behind the overall life expectancy of white Americans at each point throughout the life cycle for the reasons I mentioned above.

You also mentioned about equipment and high-tech procedures that the Romanow report compares mostly with US, agreed, I read it, but it also compares with other OECD countries and ranked pretty well as you said.

So here is the paradox, ranking average among other OECD countries in the Romanow report and WHO ranked Canada 30th on the list. what is wrong with this picture? How can Greece who has a decaying health care infrastructure rank 14th and Canada 30th?

Always keep in mind the methodologies used to reach conclusions, this is where everything gets skewed.

 

[no1important]

no1, you're from Vancouver, have you ever experienced problems with the health care system? Just curious.

Personally me no. I know my mom had to wait three months to see a specialist and it will be another couple months before she gets knee replaced. So about a 6-7 month wait. So that could be viewed as being too long or considered a problem. But then it is not life and death.

I have never really had to go to hospital myself (for a long time anyways). But it took me a while to find a doctor who is taking new patients, but the Walk in Clinic is pretty good service, but you do not always get same doctor. But getting tests done (blood work and Ultra sound) is not a wait, but of course they are done by priviate clinics and not hospitals.

My sister in Law from Chilliwack had a problem with one of her overies and by the time it was diagnosed and when she had it operated on, was only a couple days. So on that hand I would say the system provided "good service".

From my and my families experience, we have not had any real major problems, so we really have not had a need too use the medical system too much either so I can not really give a fair answer, to the question.

Of course though like most things it could use tweaking and improvements.

 

[I think not]

Thanks for your input no1, as jackd stated and of course well known, the health care in Canada is provincial, so there may be varying degrees of "service"

Maybe someone from another province can share some input.