America welcomes the Queen (but struggles to lay the red carpet)

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
539
113
Regina, SK
The Queen CAN exercise whatever powers she wishes. She can, if she felt like it, sack the entire government of Canada,..
In practical terms, no, she can not. The executive power is vested in the institution of the Crown, not the reigning monarch, and the powers have been delegated to elected Canadian officials authorized to act in the name of the Crown. You apparently understand the difference between theory and practice, why don't you get this one?
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
119
63
The Queen CAN exercise whatever powers she wishes. She can, if she felt like it, sack the entire government of Canada, or the government of any other foreign country of which she is Head of State.

In theory the queen could order the Governor General to sack the government. That order would not be obeyed and it is likely that that order would change the country from a constitutional Monarchy to a constitutional democracy and someone else's head would be on our coinage.
 

Pangloss

Council Member
Mar 16, 2007
1,535
41
48
Calgary, Alberta
The monarchy:

Who cares? So what? It doesn't matter! She's pointless and expensive! The whole thing reeks of injustice and anachronism!

God, why are we wasting out time and inconveniencing all these electrons on such an incredibly unimportant topic!

Pangloss
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
119
63
The monarchy:

Who cares? So what? It doesn't matter! She's pointless and expensive! The whole thing reeks of injustice and anachronism!

God, why are we wasting out time and inconveniencing all these electrons on such an incredibly unimportant topic!

Pangloss

Believe it or not Pangloss a lot of people care. There is such a thing as tradition. While I'm not a strong royalist, I know good people who are. There is something to be said about having an apolitical head of state who is not vying for your damn vote all the time.
 

Fingertrouble

Electoral Member
Nov 8, 2006
150
1
18
57
Calgary
The British Military should be more than familiar to red carpet..seeing as how they groveled on it in Tehran for Ahmadinejad and the rest of the world to see.

It seems that you should take some memory medication, as back when you had many US embassy hostages in Tehran Jimmy carter had the US launch a rescue mission which was an utter failure and which ended just leaving equipment stranded in the Iranian desert.......nice one....fail militarally (sound familiar of the US doesn't it?) and leave the Iranians some extra military equipment!
 

Fingertrouble

Electoral Member
Nov 8, 2006
150
1
18
57
Calgary
On a side note, why is it that while the Conservatives in Canada are probably the strongest supporters of the Royals, they are the only real party pushing for Senate reform? Why are Liberals and NDPers so against Senate reform and yet they question constitutional monarchies?
 

Pangloss

Council Member
Mar 16, 2007
1,535
41
48
Calgary, Alberta
Juan:

Not vying for a vote because she inherited the position and chooses when to leave.

Non-partisan? Since when was representing the rich and landed and titled not partisan?

As for tradition: taxes being spent on pensions for backbenchers are a tradition. So, just being a tradition is no justification.

Oh, now I'm all splenetic. . .

Pangloss
 

Fingertrouble

Electoral Member
Nov 8, 2006
150
1
18
57
Calgary
Non-partisan? Since when was representing the rich and landed and titled not partisan?

As a British Citizen I have to say that whether I agree with the monarchy or not, she (the queen) always has represented the British people, not just the rich. She is much less partisan than shall we say... now lets think about this...a President! Oh and she doesn't single handedly VETO democratically elected officials.....
 

Blackleaf

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 9, 2004
49,956
1,910
113
Non-partisan? Since when was representing the rich and landed and titled not partisan?

The Queen, as she is politically neutral, represents ALL of the people of Great Britain. She is the figurehead of the nation.

Compare that to the president of a republic, who only really represents the people who elected him into office.

And we can also quite easily say that George Bush - who is quite rich (probably richer than the Queen) - also just represents the rich if we take your view.
 

Libra Girl

Electoral Member
Feb 27, 2006
723
21
18
49
In theory the queen could order the Governor General to sack the government. That order would not be obeyed and it is likely that that order would change the country from a constitutional Monarchy to a constitutional democracy and someone else's head would be on our coinage.

Very good point yuan.



Blackleaf, whilst it is acknowledged that the queen is 'politically neutral,' in theory, many would deny that she was, in fact, in private.
 

Blackleaf

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 9, 2004
49,956
1,910
113
Blackleaf, whilst it is acknowledged that the queen is 'politically neutral,' in theory, many would deny that she was, in fact, in private.

Erm, does it matter whether or not she is PRIVATELY neutral? Does it matter if she prefers a political party over an other?

The fact is, she CANNOT vote. Therefore, she represents all 61 million Brits, rather than, as in a republic, the people who voted the president into office. She is not represented by any political party.
 

Libra Girl

Electoral Member
Feb 27, 2006
723
21
18
49
Erm, does it matter whether or not she is PRIVATELY neutral? Does it matter if she prefers a political party over an other?

The fact is, she CANNOT vote. Therefore, she represents all 61 million Brits, rather than, as in a republic, the people who voted the president into office.

Technically you are right, she cannot vote. Does it matter whether she is privately neutral or not? I would have to say,, yes it does. Only in the sense that she is a figurehead for the aristocracy and their numerous dependants, not excluding their private staff, (they may live on poor wages, but without their tied homes, well...) grace and favor staff households; for the Conservatives, and all their dependants, etc etc.

Yes, I think that it does matter...


And the rest of the immediate family are suspect also. Remember that Philip is a racist, and to the far right, with his 'slitty eye's comment... Camilla said that no matter how the vote turned out on the hunting issue, that she would never ever give up the sport.
 

Blackleaf

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 9, 2004
49,956
1,910
113
Only in the sense that she is a figurehead for the aristocracy and their numerous dependants

Do you not read what I write?

The Queen is the figurehead of the entire nation. When she goes abroad - just like she's in the US now - she represents the entire nation, the British people.

Saying that the Queen represents just the aristocracy is the equivalent of me saying that Bush (who's probably wealthier than the Queen) represents just millionaires who get rich from oil and Saudi businessmen.
 

Libra Girl

Electoral Member
Feb 27, 2006
723
21
18
49
Do you not read what I write?

The Queen is the figurehead of the entire nation. When she goes abroad - just like she's in the US now - she represents the entire nation, the British people.

Saying that the Queen represents just the aristocracy is the equivalent of me saying that Bush (who's probably wealthier than the Queen) represents just millionaires who get rich from oil and Saudi businessmen.

Ah, no Blackleaf. Obviously I didn't make my point clear, my fault, I apologise. I was talking about when it comes to voting... Meaning that a vote for the tories is a vote for the monarchy.
 

Blackleaf

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 9, 2004
49,956
1,910
113
And the rest of the immediate family are suspect also. Remember that Philip is a racist, and to the far right, with his 'slitty eye's comment

So what? The same thing happens in families of republics. Look at Bush - we all know that he doesn't like blacks and homosexuals. His two daughters are drunkards (just like Bush was). In 2001, Jenna Bush (under 21 at the time) was charged with being a minor in possession of alcohol. later, she was charged with using a fake ID to obtain alcohol. Her twin sister has also been charged with similar offences.

In 1963, Barbard Bush - Shrub's wife - illegally ran a stop sign, crashing into another car and killing her friend Michael Douglas.

The Windsors might have their family problems, but so do the Bushs.

Also, when was the last time you saw a child or grandchild of the American President serving in the military, as our Queen's children, drandchildren, husband (and even the Queen herself) have done for many years?
 

Blackleaf

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 9, 2004
49,956
1,910
113
Ah, no Blackleaf. Obviously I didn't make my point clear, my fault, I apologise. I was talking about when it comes to voting... Meaning that a vote for the tories is a vote for the monarchy.

I don't think it matters which party is in power. We've had a Labour Government for the last 10 years and they've made no attempt that I know of to turn Britain into a republic.

Constitutional Monarchies require the consent of the people to operate. So any government wanting to be rid of the monarchy would have to hold a referendum - and the Monarchists would therefore probably win each time.

A recent poll by Time magazine found that just 9% of the British people were in favour of becoming a Republic. There is almost no strong Republican movement in Britain.

And, according to a Mori poll done just LAST YEAR, only 18% of the British people want Britain to dump the Monarchy:

21st century Republicanism in the United Kingdom

The monarchy is still largely popular in the UK, though a sizeable minority of the British public is opposed to it. Opinion polls in the recent past have put support for an elected head of state at between 15 to 25 per cent, with the most recent MORI poll in 2006 showing support for a republic at 18 per cent.[1]

The Guardian newspaper (Republican) approached the Attorney General in 2001, inquiring as to whether it would be prosecuted if it ran articles on the topic of whether British voters would have the right to chose a republic. In 2003 the House of Lords halted The Guardian's challenge to the Treason Felony Act of 1848.[2]

The Fabian Society published a report in July 2003 giving a number of recommendations for reform of the monarchy, but they did not argue for its abolition.

wikipedia.org

There's about as much chance of Elvis Presley crashing a Flying saucer into the Loch Ness monster on the Moon than there is of Britain becoming a Republic in the forseeable future.

The reason why the British are so against republics is that we have experimented with republicanism before - England was a republic under Cromwell for a number of years in the 17th century, and that eventually turned into a military dictatorship, so we don't fancy going the same way again.

Although what Canada, Australia, new Zealand decide to do is up to them.
 
Last edited:

Blackleaf

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 9, 2004
49,956
1,910
113
Arguments in favour of constitutional monarchy
  • Provides an impartial arbiter
Monarchists argue that an impartial, symbolic Head of State is a step removed from political, commercial, and factional interests, allowing them to be a non-partisan figure who can act as an effective intermediary between various levels of government and political parties, an especially indispensable feature in a federal system. The fact that this body holds all executive authority is seen as a bonus by monarchists, who state that the Crown is a guarantor against the misuse of constitutional power by politicians for personal gain. The analogy monarchists use is that the Crown is like a fire extinguisher: rarely used, but highly visible and there in case of emergencies. As Earl Russell put it in The Spectator in 1997: "The monarchy is a political referee, not a political player, and there is a lot of sense in choosing the referee by a different principle from the players. It lessens the danger that the referee might try to start playing." Or, as Sir Michael Forsyth said in 1999: "The monarchy's most important constitutional function is simply to be there: by occupying the constitutional high ground, it denies access to more sinister forces; to a partisan or corrupt president, divisive of the nation; or even to a dictator. The Queen's powers are a vital safeguard of democracy and liberty." This view of the monarchy could have developed after Oliver Cromwell's Republic which eventually became a military dictatorship, there has been little desire to attempt a republic since. Furthermore, monarchists assert that honours systems like the French Legion of Honour may not be as politically impartial as they feel that a monarch is.
  • Provides a focal point for unity and tradition
Monarchists argue that a constitutional monarch with limited powers, and non-partisan nature can provide a focus for national unity, national awards and honours, national institutions, and allegiance, as opposed to a president, who, due to the election process, would cause a relative amount of division between his or her supporters and detractors. However, the French Legion of Honour provides a clear example of an honours system directed by an elected head of state.
  • Provides links with other states
Monarchs tend to be linked with the monarchs of other nations, or in the case of the Commonwealth Realms, one person is the Head of State separately for each nation.
  • The Church
The Queen is, by notoriety, the Head of the Church of England and plays quite an active part within this role. The days are gone when Catholics, or followers of non-Christian religions, would be pursected by The Crown as traitors and heretics.
  • A separation from government duties (in figurehead monarchies)
Monarchists argue that separating the Head of State from the Head of Government (the Prime Minister), offers some advantages. But it is unclear if a system like that of France, wherein there is a separate president and prime minister would have the same advantage, it being possible that having both an elected president and prime minister could lead to the two coming to odds over who holds more authority; each could claim to be "elected by the people".
  • Political roles
Politicians with a noted left-wing stance on government such as Tony Benn have at least proposed (albeit derogatorily) ways in which a government could exist without lesser aristocrats, but Monarchists have nevertheless pointed out that whilst the Queen (in the eyes of Republicans) does very little politically, the House of Lords plays a very significant part in passing new laws, and that it could not exist as a constitution without the Monarchy. There is also, even if Republicans do raise the issue as to whether the needs of the people are addressed or understood by the Royal Family, the question of how much more astute politians are on that level.
  • Monarchies have staying power
Monarchists argue that Constitutional Monarchy creates a Head of State that is under the democratic control of Parliament but does not rotate and change on a short term basis. In the days of absolute monarchies however, there were certainly tumultuous periods with multiple monarchs. Perhaps the examples of Edward VI, Lady Jane Grey, and Queen Mary I would serve as an example of 3 monarchs in 11 years. However, modern Constitutional Monarchs, such as that in Denmark, the United Kingdom and the Netherlands have had monarchs that have had many Prime Ministers, but only one Monarch during a 50 year span.
  • Discrimination?
Republicans have argued that the existence of a monarchy or even an aristocracy amounts to snobbery and that one should not be placed in power purely because of inheritence, or how "properly" one speaks. However, a Monarchist might counter that the loss of a monarchy would do nothing to diminish discrimination, and point towards the presidency of George W. Bush in the United States or even Benazir Bhutto in Pakistan partly if not purely on the grounds that their fathers were noted politicians before them as testimony to the fact that a person can and will be placed in power on unfair grounds with or without the presence of a crown. Even the aftermath of the Cromwellian republic saw Cromwell's son being offered the position of Lord Protector after his father's death, before Charles II returned as King.
  • No divisive elections
Constitutional Monarchists argue that where elections are not needed they are only divisive, and that the head of state need not be elected. This relates to the first argument that they are impartial and are figures of unity that people from all sides of the political spectrum can unite behind.
  • The Royals are busy
The Royals in the United Kingdom have documented an extensive lists of duties and functions that they carry out.[12]
  • The Royals are cost effective
The annual expenditure, since June 2005 has been a total of £36.7 Million [13] or approximately 61 pence per person. When compared to the relative size and the duties that the Royal Family perform, this is significantly more cost effective as their only job duties are the meeting of foreign dignitaries, attending events and ceremonial events, to which they devote all of their time. In most states with a presidential system , the duties are divided between political and ceremonial responsibilities resulting in less time for both.

wikipedia.org

The fact is that Britain - along with other constitutional monarchies such as Spain, Holland, Sweden, Denmark and Belgium - has the best system of government in the world today.

Even Japan, the most technologically advanced nation in the world, is a constitutional monarchy.
 
Last edited:

Blackleaf

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 9, 2004
49,956
1,910
113
Bush: you're like a mum ma'am

A couple of hours ago the Queen and Bush made a speech on the lawn of the White House in front of the hundreds of people who had gathered their to see the monarch.

Not surprisingly, Bush made a gaffe (although it was quite funny) as he was talking about the 400th anniversary of the first English settlement in America. He mentioned - live on TV around being beamed around the world - how the Queen helped the US to celebrate its bicentennial in 1976, but almost accidentally said 1776 - which would have implied that the Queen was extremely old. Though he did manage to correct himself quickly.

I'm glad to say that you rarely see the Queen embarrassing herself, and our nation, in public.



Slip up ... the President shares joke with The Queen


By SEBASTIAN LANDER
May 07, 2007


PRESIDENT George Bush was left feeling like a scolded child when he stood shoulder to shoulder with The Queen on the lawn of the White House today as they gave their speeches.

The President laid on a lavish ceremony to officially welcome the British monarch to Washington.

But he slipped up during his speech in front of The Queen and 7,000 politicians, diplomats, Oval Office staff and well-wishers.



Sombre moment ... the pair stand for anthems



The tongue-tied leader started to say the wrong date for the American bicentenary and as the crowd began to laugh, the President quipped about the Queen’s reaction.

He said: “You helped our nation to celebrate its bicentennial in 17....1976.” (After a short pause, there was laughter from the crowd).

He then paused, turned to the Queen and added: “You gave me a look that only a mother could give a child.”

The Duke of Edinburgh and First Lady Laura Bush stood by as the monarch and American leader reviewed the honour guard troops from the army, navy, marines, air force and US coastguards on the south lawn.

The Queen delivered a keynote speech.

She said: “This is my fifth visit to the United States and I believe that it is important to remind ourselves of the purpose of these occasions which gives meaning to the ceremonial, the symbolism and the circumstance.

“A state visit provides us with a brief opportunity to step back from our current preoccupations to reflect on the very essence of our relationship.

“It gives us the chance to look back at how the stories of our two countries have been inextricably woven together."

She added: "It is the moment to take stock of our present friendship - rightly taking pleasure from its strengths, while never taking these for granted.

“And it is time to look forward, jointly renewing our commitments to a more prosperous, safer and freer world.”

Of her trip to Washington, she said: “I shall enjoy not only renewing old acquaintances and making new ones but also recognising the breadth and depth of the friendship we have shared for so long.”

The Queen was last in the American capital 16 years ago and it is her first trip to the States since Mr Bush came to power.

The President is pulling out all the stops to entertain the visiting royals by staging the first-ever white tie state banquet of his administration this evening.

thesun.co.uk
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
17,467
139
63
Location, Location
He said: “You helped our nation to celebrate its bicentennial in 17....1976.” (After a short pause, there was laughter from the crowd).

He then paused, turned to the Queen and added: “You gave me a look that only a mother could give a child.”

I heard that on the news just a few moments ago. Every once in a while, Bush does something to make me think he's not as stupid as the role he plays. That was a funny comment.