Abortion don't favour life .....

LittleRunningGag

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Vereya said:
The difference between a fetus and a parasite is that a parasite will never be anything but a parasite. its functions are limited to living on a host and feeding from it. And a fetus is a tiny being learning how to live.

No, a fetus is not "learning how to live." A fetus is developing into a child by absorbing nutrition from its mother. This is especially true during the first part of pregnancy. In the later parts of pregnancy this begins to change, but by the time the fetus reaches this stage there is a decent chance that it could survive without the direct support of the mother's body. Thus it is moving from a parasitical relationship to something more self sustaining.

If you see no difference, you miss the very point of having children.

Procreation? No I don't miss the point of having children.

And when your loving significant other will be expecting a child, will you treat her as a person who has parasites?

If we decide that we do not wish to have the child, yes. We will seek medical intervention, and treatment. If we choose to allow the child to be born, then we won't treat her as a person with a parasite. Its as simple as that.

And as for my dying in a fire - not in this life. And not in the next one, either.

Hey you started the personal attacks. If you want to continue, we can. If you want to have a calm and reasoned discussion, we can do that too.
 

thecdn

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LittleRunningGag said:
Words are just words. If a definition applies, I don't see why we can't use it.

(This should have been posted about 45 minutes ago but our internet conncetion slowed to a crawl at work :roll: )

You are right of course in that a fetus is technically a parasite, a being dependant on the host and taking food from it.

But this parasite, if left alone, will be born as a baby and won't be a parasite anymore. Except for the diapers($), clothes($$), furniture($$$), food($$$$), shelter($$$$$).....

Ok, so they stay parasites most of their lives!!! 8) But, never ever underestimate the emotions in play when people who have their own paras. er, children talk about such things. Remember the little chat we had on ap about parents rights? I almost quit the forum over the comments made by he who has no kids and knows everything.

Nothing brings out the emotions more, for good or bad, than talking about kids. So yes, your definition seems valid at first glance. But it also stirs up a whole lot of shit. But you knew that didn't you? :wink:
 

LittleRunningGag

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thecdn said:
You are right of course in that a fetus is technically a parasite, a being dependant on the host and taking food from it.

But this parasite, if left alone, will be born as a baby and won't be a parasite anymore. Except for the diapers($), clothes($$), furniture($$$), food($$$$), shelter($$$$$).....

Ah, but the difference is sentience, isn't it. Even a five year old can survive on its own if it must. Like I said, I do definately see a difference between a fetus and a child. I definitely wouldn't advocate the destruction of a child. But I think that we can use the term parasite appropriately for the unborn. And I think that it puts things in perspective when we talk about abortion.

Nothing brings out the emotions more, for good or bad, than talking about kids. So yes, your definition seems valid at first glance. But it also stirs up a whole lot of shit. But you knew that didn't you? :wink:

:wink:

Fortunately, Nikki agrees with my assessment of abortion, even if she does think it rather direct. :lol:
 

Dexter Sinister

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Well now, as a man I'm not really sure I'm entitled to have an opinion on this except in a case where I'm the father, a situation that's never arisen. Not that I'm not a father, I am, I mean the issue of abortion has never arisen for me personally. Our children were planned and very much wanted.

However...

I don't feel abortion is a matter for the law to be involved in at all. It's a legitimate medical procedure that should be decided upon via a discussion among the interested parties: the father (assuming he's around; a lot of them aren't, or aren't interested), the mother, and a medical professional of the mother's choosing. There's an important caveat too: the last word and final decision belongs to the mother, as she's the one most affected by whatever decision is made.

And as long as I'm in here, I don't think it's legitimate to call a fetus a parasite. That's generally understood to mean an organism of one species permanently living in or on an organism of another species and benefitting at the expense of the host. Debate over abortion is already quite emotionally charged, it's not useful to additionally burden it with an emotive word like parasite and its overtones of revulsion and disease. Pregnancy's not an illness.
 

Said1

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LittleRunningGag said:
Thank you for giving me a calm and reasoned response, at least there are a few people on this board that can see past their hang ups. As for the term, it is just a word right? What it does is put things in perspective. Like I said, you identify the word parasite with something bad. Why does it have to be bad? Why can't it simply provide an adequate decription of the relationship between mother and fetus?

Because it isn't an accurate description in that it only describes the scientific relationship between mother and fetus. There is a lot more going on than one might think. As I said, mothers often bond and identify the fetus as a baby right away, regardless of their choice. This is probably some type of instinct (I'm just guessing) that causes the mother to be more protective of the unborn fetus. Plus, most parasites are something we want to destroy, not give birth too, breast feed and hopefully put through college. :lol:

I will admit, many women do not have any maternal instincts and prior to having a child I might have agreed with your definition - to a certain extent. I also think women are able to stay somewhat detached from the entire situation, particularly if they have an abortion very early in the pregnancy. Then there's post-partum depression. Oh boy, can we tawlk? :lol:
 

Jersay

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It's is the body of that women and her choice. If you outlaw it women have been doing Abortions themselves for thousands of years if by drugs or by other means. Some of them are not safe and I think making them illegal and forcing your values on others will for one not help in the matter because Abortions will still take place and secondly you have no right on that persons body.

Now many of you may think I'm completely wrong for saying this but not untill birth I don't think you could see it as a person yet, it is still apart of the mothers body. Though I personally think Abortions are wrong I think the woman with the child has sovereign rights over her own body, including her reproductive organs.

Bang on.

And Little Running Greg is right it is a parasite in a sense of the word as it is feeding off of its mother's nutrients until it is born. And it is not learning to be a baby, that is silly, it is growing it is becoming from a small thing into a thing with a head, with legs and arms and other baby appendanges.
 

fuzzylogix

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If you determine that a fetus is not a person because it cannot survive on its own, then I guess a full term infant is not a person. If you leave a full term infant, or a one year old on its own, it will not survive. Period. Leave a five year old on its own. Generally it will not survive. So where is the cutoff?

Many years ago, we could not save a premature infant born at 30 weeks . This infant would therefore have been classed as "not a person". Now we can save it. So I guess now it is a person. We can not currently save a premature fetus at 20 weeks. But if medical science progresses maybe we can.

You cant determine a cutoff of when life begins. It begins at the instant the sperm fertilizes the egg. Anyone who tries to claim otherwise is just trying to justify their discomfort at the fact that abortion is taking the life away from a human being. And yes, that is a horrendous decision to make.
 

Finder

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Not to put down your beliefs Fuzzy because I totally respect you as a person and a hot chick. But an ant is alive too and most likely has more self determination at this point then a fertilized egg. Yet we have no problems stepping on them.
 

fuzzylogix

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True.
But I think that we are kidding ourselves that we can fix a time on when that fertilized egg actually is a "human". We are trying to create definition for our own convenience and to alleviate our own guilt. Is it at the point of no return, when that fertilized egg has created the path of life? Some people believe that it IS the actual time of fertilization, and they will not use IUDs because these are technically aborting the fertilized egg by not allowing it to implant in the uterus.

Very very early on, a fetus has human features and does human things like sucking its thumb. The fetus can hear. There are many studies now that suggest that a very immature fetus can experience pain. This of course, is too much for us to contemplate. If this is true, then abortions are torture for a living being.

I am not a rabid antiabortionist because sadly I have seen too many conditions where abortion does seem to be the most humane solution all round, but I have my deepening convictions that life begins a long time before birth.
 

Finder

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fuzzylogix, I don't dismiss your beliefs, I myself believe abortion is wrong and if it was up to me I would never have one myself. Of course it's not up to me (wooo), but I feel this is the womens right and nobody has the right to tell someone they have rights over your body. abortion is about of the womens liberation from being stuck at home bare foot and prenant all the time. Besides as was said in this thread many times, if you make it illegal women will only do what they have done since the start of time and find ways to do it themselves, though cominations of drugs and self aborting techs.
 

fuzzylogix

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That is the problem, that we certainly cant go back to backstreet abortions with the deaths related to that. So abortion is here to stay. With medical advances, like the morning after pill, maybe we can find alternative ways.

Although I agree that it is a woman's body and she has a final decision, I do wonder how many men are in a postion of wanting the woman to have the child, and not being able to have a say. There was a recent French Canadian movie- darn I cant remember the name- that addresses this issue of the guy who really loves the girl and the child is everything he ever wanted but having to support her having an abortion.. I think the future will see more men asserting their role as a part of the decision process.
 

tracy

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Re: RE: Abortion don't favour life .....

fuzzylogix said:
Very very early on, a fetus has human features and does human things like sucking its thumb. The fetus can hear. There are many studies now that suggest that a very immature fetus can experience pain. This of course, is too much for us to contemplate. If this is true, then abortions are torture for a living being.

I think that's quite a leap. We do painful things all the time, that doesn't necessarily make them torture or even immoral. Some people think quick and minimally painful euthanasia is compassionate in certain circumstances. Trust me, none of my patients like me sticking them for IVs because it's painful but sometimes the ends justify the means. It's sometimes hard to see what's best in these situations.
 

Cosmo

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LittleRunningGag said:
Fetus = parasite

Until it can survive on its own, a fetus is nothing more than a parasite and a woman should have no problem finding a medical solution to deal with it. If she decides to allow the parasite to run its course that's her decision. If she chooses to medically intervene, who are we to tell her no? It is her body and her parasite.

If we run the gambit of trying to control reproduction, what is to stop the state from getting all big brother-esque and taking away our right to choose our own partners? Or our right to procreate all together? 1984 much?
:lol: :lol: Wow ... seems ya ruffled some feathers with this one. LittleRunningGag, I agree with you entirely.

Part of the reason I never had children is the idea of having something growing inside me gives me the creeping willies. Ick!! True ... pregnancy is a spiritual, mystical, magical thing but I prefer to watch it from the benches. I've watched the process right through to birthing and after seeing that experience realized nothing that big was coming out of that part of my anatomy. Ever.

Sentiment aside, until a fetus is viable and can live on its own, it is, technically and medically, a parasite. "Parasite: An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host." In clinical terms, LittleRunningGag is entirely correct. A fetus is a parasite. Not only does it not contribute to the physical well being of the host, it actually endangers it. I don't see that as being sick or untoward. It is what it is.

I've made every argument in support of abortion that can be made by a rational human being and don't really feel like remaking them here. Instead I will address the one element of the whole abortion issue that makes me nuts ... that is men having an opinion on it. Pregnancy is a woman's domain. Our bodies, our business. You contribute a microscopic piece of genetic material, but dammit if you choose to walk off later, we get stuck with the college tuition.

Women, by the very nature of child bearing, are the ones ultimately responsible. Sorry guys, but facts and statistics prove me right. It's a rare case where a mother gives birth then leaves the baby with the father.

I get so annoyed when I see the do gooder men marching around with signs ... when guys can bear children, then they have a say. Till then? Shaddup. At least publicly. Don't push through legislation on something that isn't part of your life experience.

Within a solid relationship, the decision to carry or abort a fetus is up to both partners but really, how often does that occur? Abortions are most frequently the product of a non-permanent or non-secure union. It's an "oops".

On a spiritual note, I don't believe a child is given a soul until it is viable. This is strictly opinion, so I can't really argue it, but I just "know" that an aborted fetus is no more a child than the mole on my arm. I don't understand how people can think that, then use birth control. If you truly believe a fetus is a person, then what about all those little soldiers in the bottom of the condom? Each and every one of those has the potential to be a baby. Where do you draw the line? It's nothing more than a judgment call. To say that a woman is wrong to abort a fetus then use a condom is the ultimate in hipocracy.

Denying abortion on that principle is very Catholic. Until potential switches to viable, the mass of flesh is not a baby.

There's my couple pennies worth. :)
 

fuzzylogix

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Cannot and do not agree, Cosmo.

Unfortunately, abortion is used by too many people as a quick fix. Have you ever seen an aborted fetus, ripped to shreds?

Can you condone a married woman who has an abortion because she only wanted three kids and now is pregnant?

How about the 23 year old who wants one because she did deliberately get pregnant but suddenly gets hired for the job she always wanted and so now doesnt want the kid?

How about the 28 year old who wasnt using any form of protection AGAIN and now for the third time wants an abortion?

I dont believe abortion should be used as a form of contaception. I agree we cant ban it entirely, but people have to look at it as something more than just another quick operation.

I think we do have to make people consider the reality of abortion. We have to work to make people more responsible in preventing unwanted pregnancies.

Here's a scenario. I have a friend who was originally a twin. Her mother had an abortion, but as can rarely happen, only one twin was aborted. She survived and it was too late to abort her so her mum had to have her. She is a third child in the family. How do you think she feels about her mum?
 

LittleRunningGag

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Cosmo said:
:lol: :lol: Wow ... seems ya ruffled some feathers with this one. LittleRunningGag, I agree with you entirely.

:lol:

Well, so many people have so much emotion tied in with this topic, we might as well break it down to science. And thats really the only way we can logically make a decision on it.
 

LittleRunningGag

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Re: RE: Abortion don't favour life .....

fuzzylogix said:
Unfortunately, abortion is used by too many people as a quick fix. Have you ever seen an aborted fetus, ripped to shreds?

Your point?

Can you condone a married woman who has an abortion because she only wanted three kids and now is pregnant?

How about the 23 year old who wants one because she did deliberately get pregnant but suddenly gets hired for the job she always wanted and so now doesnt want the kid?

How about the 28 year old who wasnt using any form of protection AGAIN and now for the third time wants an abortion?

Yes. Yes. Yes.

It is her body, if she wants to, let her. It has nothing to do with you, or anyone else. It doesn't effect you, or anyone else. It is none of your, or my, business.

I dont believe abortion should be used as a form of contaception. I agree we cant ban it entirely, but people have to look at it as something more than just another quick operation.

Why?

I think we do have to make people consider the reality of abortion. We have to work to make people more responsible in preventing unwanted pregnancies.

Your reality, not necessarily there's.

Here's a scenario. I have a friend who was originally a twin. Her mother had an abortion, but as can rarely happen, only one twin was aborted. She survived and it was too late to abort her so her mum had to have her. She is a third child in the family. How do you think she feels about her mum?

I would hope that she was glad that her mother felt close enough to her daughter that she was able to share such an intense part of her life. Something that obviously is tied to quite a bit of emotion. Why, how do you think she feels about her mother?
 

Cosmo

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Re: RE: Abortion don't favour life .....

fuzzylogix said:
Cannot and do not agree, Cosmo.
8) You mean *gasp* we might have a sane debate about this? What a treat!

Unfortunately, abortion is used by too many people as a quick fix. Have you ever seen an aborted fetus, ripped to shreds?
Fuzzy, it is a quick fix to a complex problem. Adding a child to the mix when someone isn't stable does nothing for that child.

As for seeing an aborted fetus ... well, not up close and personal, but I have seen pictures. I stand by my opinion that until the fetus is viable, it's not a human being. It's tissue. No prettier or uglier than an appendix ... it just carries the possibility of more potential if a myriad of conditions are met.

Ever see someone killed with a baseball bat? I have ... in person ... somebody should have aborted the one wielding the bat and done the world a favour, imho. It's ugly. And abortion isn't, unfortunately, retroactive. I bring it up to illustrate that there are lots of ugly and unfortunate things in the world. Our focus is where we choose to put it.

People who oppose abortion (in my experience) come from the place that the mother is aborting a good, kind human being. Not always so. In fact the majority of times a woman has an abortion it's because she shouldn't be raising a child anyway. Sad truth is that women who have children they don't want usually don't do a very good job raising them. Ask any person who suffers from fetal crack or alchol addiction.

I agree with the argument that women should give up their babies for adoption. Any woman who has done this is an absolute hero in my eyes. But that is not without its own set of problems and issues. I don't think I could ever have done that ... carried a child then gave it up. In an ideal world, this would be the norm.

Can you condone a married woman who has an abortion because she only wanted three kids and now is pregnant?

How about the 23 year old who wants one because she did deliberately get pregnant but suddenly gets hired for the job she always wanted and so now doesnt want the kid?

How about the 28 year old who wasnt using any form of protection AGAIN and now for the third time wants an abortion?

Yes, yes and yes. If a woman opts to abort a pregnancy, no matter the reason, I believe she has the right. Without reservation or judgment. Personally I would never want to subject myself to that because abortion frequently leaves some pretty serious issues in its wake (coulda / woulda / shoulda), but who am I to dictate what you do with your womb?

And what about women like me who opted to never get pregnant? We just kill off the eggs at an early phase. No difference in my mind.

I recall once when I was 19 and married (short story, that is) and discovered my birth control pills were outdated. And I was late. I freaked out. Called the doctor, the shrink, the fire department ... I was in a panic. It was through no fault of my own, but I did find myself in the position where I may have had to make that decision.

Add to the mix I was drinking, doing drugs, in a marriage that lasted a whole 13 months ... not really the kind of environment to bring a child into. And I'm not the sort who could ever give up a baby. Thank all the gawds that be, I was not preggers, but if I had been, you can bet I'd have used the "quick fix".

I dont believe abortion should be used as a form of contaception. I agree we cant ban it entirely, but people have to look at it as something more than just another quick operation.
Know what? I kinda struggle with this too. Not because women are aborting a child, but because it is dangerous both physically and psychologically. There are better ways to manage procreation. There are too many folks speaking out about how awful a woman who has an abortion is ... tough on the self esteem. There are situations where a woman wants a family, but it's the wrong time. There's so many damn considerations!

I applaud the morning after pill. I did a happy dance when they came out with that. It's no different, really, than birth control pills since you have no idea whether or not you "aborted" (I hesitate to use that on a day old fetus), but it is an option for those times that every woman who has had sex with a man experiences.

I think we do have to make people consider the reality of abortion. We have to work to make people more responsible in preventing unwanted pregnancies.
I don't really understand what you mean by "the reality of abortion", but I do agree completely with your assertion that we need to help people avoid unwanted pregnancy. Education is the cure to almost any social evil, imho.

Here's a scenario. I have a friend who was originally a twin. Her mother had an abortion, but as can rarely happen, only one twin was aborted. She survived and it was too late to abort her so her mum had to have her. She is a third child in the family. How do you think she feels about her mum?
Wow, that's a crapper. I'd hate to be in either her shoes or her mother's! Gad, it's hard enough just growing up without something like that hanging between a mother and daugher. What a sad situation. I'm glad it's rare ... I have never heard of it.

I wonder, though, why the hell the mom told her???? I'm not a parent but I'm a damn good arm chair quarterback. If I had done that, I'd shut my pie hole about it. Kids don't need to know everything. That's hurtful with no benefit.

It's exactly that kind of behaviour that makes me think abortion isn't such a bad thing. A parent who would do that to a child doesn't deserve one. Read some Scott Peck ... he talks about human evil being thoughtless rather than purposeful. This is exactly the kind of thing he meant.

Of course if there were some reason the child found out, I take back my words. But still, that's a definite reason for a trip to a good shrink. Whatever the circumstances. Man, poor kid.
 

fuzzylogix

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Well, that is the problem with abortion. It never will be a black and white issue. And people are forced into a black and white decision.

I say it again. I understand the need for abortions particularly in certain situations.
But I think it is killing a living thing.
And I think many mothers know that when they have it done and that is why there is such an emotional distress attached. I have seen this particularly when a woman subsequently has a child after they had an abortion. The realization of what they might have had hits them.

I also think that that it is not just a mothers decision. I know in the vast majority of cases the father is out of the picture and that is why an abortion is needed. But there are circumstances where a father is in the picture and where I believe he should have a say. It is his child too. Too bad for the woman. Women sometimes want to have their cake and eat it too. If they have the kid, the man damn surre better pay for it coz its his. But if they dont want the kid, then it is none of his business. Nope dont agree with that.

I understand your opinions about it, but I will remain against abortion while I will remain a supporter of the womans right in some circumstances to have one.

And no, the mother did not tell the daughter. She found out on her own in a very strange way. Proof that deep dark secrets arent always safe. But many other women face the same problem: do you tell a child that you aborted their sibling?


And a fetus is not a parasite. A tumour is a parasite. A fetus is a symbiotic relationship. If the mother dies, the fetus dies. If the fetus dies, something within the mother dies. Unless the mother is a complete btch.
 

Cosmo

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Re: RE: Abortion don't favour life .....

fuzzylogix said:
Well, that is the problem with abortion. It never will be a black and white issue. And people are forced into a black and white decision.
Well, that's one thing we certainly agree on! All the theory in the world can't compare to being in the situation where you do have to make that choice.

What we are doing here is debating the philosophical side of it, not the reality. I find the exchange of opinions with someone who is willing to rationally discuss (as opposed to just get mad at) difficult philosophical ideas very stimulating. It makes me think about myself, my values, and in expressing them I have to have a certain clarity that isn't required until they have to be spoken.

I also agree with the issue of the father of the child. That, again, is an unusual situation. Few fathers I know are willing to take an infant from the hospital and be solely responsible for it. That's not a slam against guys in any way ... it's just that they generally have a bit more freedom of choice. It would be very sad to be a guy in that position and have no say.

I guess that's where taking responsibility for your sexual partners comes in. Any time there's heterosexual sex, there's a chance of conception. In an ideal world we'd only have sex when it was either 100% safe or with a partner that shares our views. Again, not an ideal world.

Thanks, Fuzzy ... I'm enjoying our debate on this. :) But for now I must go have a wee nap. I missed my afternoon snooze today and have run out of brains, I fear.
 

tracy

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Re: RE: Abortion don't favour life .....

fuzzylogix said:
Cannot and do not agree, Cosmo.

Unfortunately, abortion is used by too many people as a quick fix. Have you ever seen an aborted fetus, ripped to shreds?

Can you condone a married woman who has an abortion because she only wanted three kids and now is pregnant?

How about the 23 year old who wants one because she did deliberately get pregnant but suddenly gets hired for the job she always wanted and so now doesnt want the kid?

How about the 28 year old who wasnt using any form of protection AGAIN and now for the third time wants an abortion?

I dont believe abortion should be used as a form of contaception. I agree we cant ban it entirely, but people have to look at it as something more than just another quick operation.

I think we do have to make people consider the reality of abortion. We have to work to make people more responsible in preventing unwanted pregnancies.

Here's a scenario. I have a friend who was originally a twin. Her mother had an abortion, but as can rarely happen, only one twin was aborted. She survived and it was too late to abort her so her mum had to have her. She is a third child in the family. How do you think she feels about her mum?

I think this story only shows that women should have abortions that work. The fact that this woman would ever tell anyone that she wanted to abort her daughter goes to show that maybe she shouldn't have been a mother in the first place.

And yes, I've seen the results of abortion and the results when women choose not to have abortions.... probably a lot more closely than most people.

To say a woman's a bitch if she doesn't regret an abortion is completely ridiculous IMO.