A Forgotten Genocide

[Reverend Blair]

Also, should the Soviet famine of the 1930s be designated as a "Ukrainian genocide",

It certainly is already designated as that among many Ukrainians, Polaco.

Part of the problem with the word genocide is that it was invented by a Jew who survived the holocaust because we didn't really have a name for it. As a made-up word it does not have a single definition. In it's purest sense it means attempting to wipe out an entire people based on their religion or ethnicity, but we also apply to massive attacks based on religion or ethnicity that will not wipe out an entire people. There are also the vagaries of religion and ethnicity.

Until we come up with clear definitions whether a genocide was attempted and/or committed is always going to end up being interpreted by those in power.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

The genocides which have been labelled genocides until now, have been cases in which a defined group was subject to physical or mental attacks (or both) merely based on their definition, meaning: Jews were killed during the Holocaust because they were Jews; Roma were killed during the Holocaust because they were Roma; Armenians were killed during the Armenian Genocide because they were Armenians; etc. etc.

 

[ElPolaco]

I guess too, because of the Latin root "gen" in the term, meaning something like "a people" as opposed to "populus" (?) meaning "people", it would refer to a racial/ethnic group and not a political or religious group. Therefore eventhough communists and social democrats were persecuted by the nazis, they never practiced genocide against them. Maybe more of a grey area would be William Patterson's "We Charge Genocide" petition presented to the UN in 1951 which claimed the US practiced genocide against american Blacks because of lynching and forms of descrimination more indirectly leading to death.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Yes, but how many does it take to be a genocide? Killing a few is a hate crime, killing several is a massacre, how many is a genocide? Does it have to be direct killing or, as in the case of the Ukraine, does starving count? How about purposely blocking foreign aid? How about infecting blankets with smallpox?

Because the definition is so vague we get countries interpreting the meaning to their political advantage, often for reasons that have nothing to do with the genocide in question.

 

[aupook]

I am aware of the existence of this genocide. And it is one of the great unsung travesties of the 20th century. One caution, revenge is a bitter cup.

 

[youwho]

Canada has not official recognized any genocide occuring within Canada, except for the Beothuks, and they blame that on the Micmacs.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Very true, YouWho. The extent of the genocides of American natives, from the arctic to the tip of South America, is really only coming to light now. Much of it was never recorded. A lot of it happened through disease and starvation before the Europeans even reached the areas where they had caused the death and destruction.

 

[Giraldi_Theirrey]

Canada has not official recognized any genocide occuring within Canada, except for the Beothuks, and they blame that on the Micmacs.

Your post has made me feel so warm inside. Thank you.

 

[aupook]

Your reply was weak, are we talking about genocide or your evening meal?

 

[Giraldi_Theirrey]

Is Mustafa Kemal Ataturk a hero or war criminal?? He was in charge of Turkey when the genocide occured. Online sources state that genocides where carried out under the orders of Ataturk. Some Turks on line have called it a complete lie and that Ataturk did not order genocide.

I like to see your stand on this folks. I know a lot of Turkish people just worship Ataturk almost as a God but, I don't know if they know the dark side of this guy?? I heard Ataturk used to be a brutal dictator before becoming a republican.

So he just a Hero or
is he a Hero AND a war criminal??

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

Is Mustafa Kemal Ataturk a hero or war criminal?? He was in charge of Turkey when the genocide occured. Online sources state that genocides where carried out under the orders of Ataturk. Some Turks on line have called it a complete lie and that Ataturk did not order genocide.

I like to see your stand on this folks. I know a lot of Turkish people just worship Ataturk almost as a God but, I don't know if they know the dark side of this guy?? I heard Ataturk used to be a brutal dictator before becoming a republican.

So he just a Hero or
is he a Hero AND a war criminal??

Good questions. According to a lot of Turks, as you said, he is a hero and not responsible for any genocide of Armenians, Greeks or other minorities (it is denied anyway that these genocides ever happened); however, according to Armenian sources, he was very crucial in participating in several crimes against humanity - according to them, he was responsible for the burning down of Smyrna (Izmir) and the killing of thousands of Greek, Armenian and Assyrian inhabitants of that city. According to the Turks, it has not been proven that Turks started the fire - some blame the Greek army, which was operational in Anatolia in the beginning of the 1920's (this is actually an understatement). However, according to both Armenian and Greek sources, it were only the neighborhoods in Smyrna where the Turks lived which remained intact - which could be an indication that the Turkish army, under the leadership of Ataturk, did start the burning down of the city.

However, most sources agree on the part that Ataturk was not a hero. Not necessarily because of his alleged involvement in the killing of hundreds of thousands of Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians, but also, as one source says, "his first priority was the good of his homeland, and all ethical situations were relative to this."

 

[ElPolaco]

Kemal was an officer in the Ottoman army who was involved in some Young Turk activity under the Empire (an organization devoted to reforming/modernizing the Ottoman Empire. He fought the Italians in Libya (1911) and was the hero of the Gallipoli battle in ww1. He was involved in the Armenian Genocide. His idea of a Turkish republic, which he later founded, was that of a monoethnic nation state. He defended Turkey against the Greek invasion of 1919 which he turned into a war of national liberation. He was both a republican and a dictator which was not a contradiction in the context of politics at the time. "ataturk" means "father of Turks". That is how much he is venerated as the founder of the modern Turkish state. He is interesting figure and there are many biographies out on him. Personally, I don't care for him and I'm sure there are many Greeks and Armenians who feel the same.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

Well, it is true Ataturk was a supporter of the ideal of a great Turkish, or Turkman, empire, spreading from the Balkan to Central Asia. I don't think that there was a place reserved for non-Turkish minorities in this. ElPolaco, have you ever heard of Thea Halo?

 

[ElPolaco]

Don't know much about her. I believe she's some NYC author who writes about the plight of the Pontic Greeks (those of Constantinople). I know those Greeks were the only Greeks allowed to remain after the rest of the Asia Minor Greek population (millions) had to move to Greece after the Greek-Turkish war ended in 1922. I know there have been some persecutions since then, but I don't know much other than that. It's interesting to note that many of the Pontic Greeks worked for the Ottoman empire as administrators and other similar positions.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

Thea Halo wrote a book about the Pontic Greeks indeed - not those living in Constantinople though, but the ones living in Northern Turkey to the Black Sea coast, and who were almost entirely killed or banned from the country. Her mother is one of these Pontic Greeks who was put on a deathmarch to the south of Turkey. Since I read her book I'm really interested in what happened to these Pontic, as well as other Turkish Greeks.

 

[Giraldi_Theirrey]

Do any of you know some Turkey forums where I can speak with the turkish in english??

The turks that I have talked to seems to say that it is an armenian lie and that kemal has nothing to do with the genocide. some say that it did not exist.

Is Kemal really as innocent as the Turkish people claim him to be?? Evidence is so few that it is hard even for me to decide who is biased and who is not about the genocide and kemal's relations to it.

 

[ElPolaco]

One good book about the Greek-Turkish war of 1919-1922, the treaties of Sevre and Lausanne, Greeks of Asia Minor etc. is "Ionian Vision" by Michael Llewellyn Smith. The book is recommended reading by both Greek and Turkish groups. See if you can get it on Interlibrary Loan because it's out of print and if someone has it in stock, it usually costs too much. I finally got it from a bookstore in the UK. Even with the shipping cost, it was cheaper than I could get it in the states.

 

[tay]

Turkey has criticised Pope Francis for using the word "genocide" to describe the mass killing of Armenians under Ottoman rule in World War 1.


Ankara immediately summoned the Vatican's envoy after the Pope made the comments at a service in Rome.


Turkey's Foreign Minister described it as "far from the historical reality".


Armenia and many historians say up to 1.5 million people were killed by Ottoman forces in 1915. Turkey has always disputed the number of dead.


The dispute has continued to sour relations between Armenia and Turkey.
'Bleeding wound'

The Pope made the comments at a Mass in the Armenian Catholic rite at Peter's Basilica, attended by the Armenian president and church leaders.


He said that humanity had lived through "three massive and unprecedented tragedies" in the last century.


"The first, which is widely considered 'the first genocide of the 20th Century', struck your own Armenian people," he said, in a form of words used by a declaration by Pope John Paul II in 2001.


Pope Francis also referred to the crimes "perpetrated by Nazism and Stalinism" and said other genocides had followed in Cambodia, Rwanda, Burundi and Bosnia.

He said it was his duty to honour the memories of those who were killed.


"Concealing or denying evil is like allowing a wound to keep bleeding without bandaging it," the Pope added.


Turkey said it summoned the Vatican's ambassador to Ankara, Archbishop Antonino Lucibello, to seek an explanation over the comments.


The foreign ministry said it felt "great disappointment and sadness" at the Pope's remarks, which it said would cause a "problem of trust" between them.


"The Pope's statement, which is far from the legal and historical reality, cannot be accepted," tweeted Turkey's Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu.


"Religious authorities are not the places to incite resentment and hatred with baseless allegations," he added.


Pope Francis, who visited Turkey last year, would have been perfectly conscious that he would offend the moderate Muslim country by his use of the word "genocide".


But the Pope's powerful phrase "concealing or denying evil is like allowing a wound to bleed without bandaging it" extended his condemnation to all other, more recent, mass killings.


It now remains to be seen how far his remarks will impact upon the Vatican's future relations with moderate Muslim states. It was a bold decision but totally coherent with Pope Francis' philosophy of open discussion about moral arguments.


Pope Francis' focus today on Armenia, the first country to adopt Christianity as its state religion, even before the conversion of the Roman Emperor Constantine, serves as yet another reminder of the Catholic Church's widely spread roots in Eastern Europe and the Middle East.




more




Turkey anger at Pope Francis Armenian 'genocide' claim - BBC News

 

[Angstrom]

Is Mustafa Kemal Ataturk a hero or war criminal?? He was in charge of Turkey when the genocide occured. Online sources state that genocides where carried out under the orders of Ataturk. Some Turks on line have called it a complete lie and that Ataturk did not order genocide.

I like to see your stand on this folks. I know a lot of Turkish people just worship Ataturk almost as a God but, I don't know if they know the dark side of this guy?? I heard Ataturk used to be a brutal dictator before becoming a republican.

So he just a Hero or
is he a Hero AND a war criminal??

Depends who's history book you read.

 

[Liberalman]

Unfortunately today genocide is still a fact of life and today is tomorrow's yesterday.