A different way of judging Chretien.

[Semperfi_dani]

Well you know...heres the thing.

If my boss gives me a directive....he assumes that I am going to do my job as it is explained to me. He monitors..but does not scrutinize everything i do. Because he assumes that I am doing my job within ethics and boundaries. If i screw up, its my own screwup that I take resposibility for, but he is held ultimately responsible after the fact. So he can't unscrew a screwup that i commited because of my lack of attention (* I once deposited a postdated million dollar cheque because i did not catch the date..but depositing cheques into clients investment accounts is part of my daily mundane job*). I don't show my boss every cheque i deposit. I show him the ones i am require by complaince to show (so for example, third party cheques). He wouldnt have time to look at every cheque i issue, every email i respond to, every conversation i have with a client.

He also has alot more to worry with his job than every little detail in my job. He assumes that I am equipped with proper training, that I have a clear understanding of company, compliance, IDA regulatory, SEC and the million other policies.

In addition, I had to go up to the Grande Prairie branch of my job. I was told to keep every reciept that i purchased. So every dinner reciept, every coffee reciept, every package of gum. Obviously, i am a moral person, so i wouldnt dream of charging a package of gum to my boss...but the companies policy on staff going out of town for business is that they have their expenses covered. There is no definition of what constitutes an expense if I am asked to give up my family and private time to represent the company for 5 solid days.

SO with that in mind...is it possible that Chretien is not as reponsible as he should be held to? I mean, he did have other things to worry about. He did appoint people he trusted to run the program. Is it possible that he really was kept in the dark? That he was given select results of the program, but the dirty stuff was kept a secret? Is it that he is being spanked now for a lack of judgement in choosing his staff?
Should he be judged as harshly as the Gomery Report says he should be judged, when you look at my example in context?

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: A different way of ju

Politics is a different game, dani. While I think we are too hard on politicians when it comes to things like travel expenses, they are expected to take responsibility for what happens under their watch.

Chretien did some good things, and those should be recognised. Staying out of Iraq was major. Siding with the developing world in Cancun was huge too. There are plenty of other things that he did right.

At the same time, he was one of the chief architects of the FTAA (declared officially dead just this morning...YAAAAY), kept more secrets than Mulroney, allowed Martin to underfund healthcare, had protestors pepper-sprayed at APEC and beaten in Quebec City, etc.

 

[Karlin]

Well it is good to see both sides.

Chretien says the testimony that fingered him was false, that Gomery got it wrong, believed the wrong people.

I wished I knew... IF JC was actually directing this spending in a general way -obviously he didn't write the cheques - or even knew it was going on, then I say he is gulity.

True, he is not a "common criminal"...
It is worse!! - It is treason to fudge results of a referandum, or influence the results thru persuasions that the other side doesn't have access too, like millions of dollars to bribe or grease people with.

I think that the real voice of Quebec was to choose independance. It would not be the end of any world, but the start of a new one. It is okay, really. They need to be free to choose, and this Sponsorship Program involved coersive pressures [money] to influence that result.

Throw him in jail I say. And all who helped him in this.

 

[MMMike]

I don't think he is being judged too harshly at all! In fact, the guy should be in handcuffs. :twisted: This program was intentionally set up outside the normal controls. It was intentionally set up with the PMO in charge. Two or three times it was brought to his attention in writing by the clerk of the privy council (?) that he was assumming all of the risk for proper disbursement of funds. Each time he did nothing. It is a joke to think he didn't know where this money was going and why. He is directly responsible and its great to see him squirm.

Welcome to your legace Chretien! :lol:

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: A different way of ju

If Chretien belongs in handcuffs, then so does Mulroney. For that matter, so does Stockwell Day.

 

[no1important]

RE: A different way of ju

Wasn't stockwell under some investigation/controversy in Alberta from his cabinet minister days there?

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: A different way of ju

Yup. He tried to intimidate a lawyer and interfere with a legal case, which is illegal. Then the people of Alberta paid his legal bills and, believe, his fines.

 

[no1important]

RE: A different way of ju

Thats right , thanks. I do think Stockwell was a worse leader than Harper.

I see Jean is going to federal court at his own expense to challange Gomery, amazing, since we already paid $440,000 for his lawyers already. Mighty nice of him.

Chretien says he'll pay court challenge costs

Does anyone honestly believe he will win?

btw- Mike Duffy is a guest on talk radio, he sure is a nutbar.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: A different way of ju

Duffy is a yahoo. During a CBC strike way back when Duffy was still working for the CBC, he tried to get into an NDP conference with scab technicians. The NDP told him to piss off...no scabs allowed. Apparently he made quite a scene.

All legal expenses for the Gomery Inquiry were paid for by the government. That's fairly standard with government things like that. If Chretien wins his challenge, the government will likely reimburse his legal costs for that as well.

I'm not convinced that the court will even agree to hear Chretien's case. If they do, he'll have to prove not only that Gomery was biased against him, but that the bias affected the way that Gomery weighed the evidence. That's almost an impossible case to make.

 

[#juan]

Can we put the whole sponsership tempest in a teacup in some kind of perspective. The highest number I have found is $355 million dollars. To date about half that money has been recovered. Paul Martin says every cent that was funneled to the Liberal party will be returned. A good percentage of the remaining money is also recoverable. Government revenues are in the area of $151 billion. If it ends up we can recover all but $25 million. we are talking about .0016 percent of the budget. On the other hand, the cost to service Mulroney's debt requires 27 cents of every tax dollar collected, or about forty billion per year. Harper wants to spend even more money. Harper has a monthly meeting with Mulroney. What, I wonder, do they talk about.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: A different way of ju

Excellent points, Juan.

 

[#juan]

Aw Rev, I get so mad I can't raise spit.

Without Mulroney's legacy, with could have a decent military, we could completely fix our medical system, and quite a few other things. If the bas---d would die, I could pi-- on his grave.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: A different way of ju

Look at the bright side, Juan...as long as the bastard is still alive there is a chance you will have the opportunity to piss directly on him.

The attempts by the Conservatives to rehabilitate Mulroney's reputation are laughable. He's the most despised PM ever. People who voted for him deny ever having done so. That Harper so readily and publicly looks for the approval of Mulroney shows how low Harper really is.

 

[Karlin]

Re: RE:Sir Blackhead

If Chretien belongs in handcuffs, then so does Mulroney. For that matter, so does Stockwell Day.

Another who seems to think they are beyond the reach of the laws the rest of us have to abide by:

1 ] Remember how Conrad Black, Hollinger's CEO
{"Sir Peckerhead"] ,was such a snob about "who's money is it" - publicly traded companies belong to the shareholders - but Sir Blackhead just used it like it was his own, throwing those million dollar parties , $20,000 showercurtain. etc

* He should be in jail.

Got more names anyone? [canadians]

 

[meitme]

RE: A different way of ju

i have no idea if jean cretien knew about the sponsorship scandal or not. i'm sure martin didn't but i have the feeling that if jean cretien did know he legaly he should have any punishment. Not because i think it is right but because i think he is smart enoughto cover his tracks and make sure someone like gomery could not catch him.

 

[Shiva]

There's nothing wrong with using federal money to attempt to preserve the federation. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. It's the job of the federal government to preserve its own existence. This is true of any nation anywhere, and it's only because this goes against the goal of separatists that they complain about it. I can't help but wonder if they would feel it is justified for the provincial government to use provincial funds to increase its visibility and create patriotism if there was a portion of the province trying to break away from it? I think they'd understand that's a normal and totally legitimate use of money.

The problem was not and is not the sponsorship programme, the problem is misappropriation of public funds. They're entirely two different things.

And if the people of Quebec were persuaded to stay in Canada because of greater incentives available inside the country than outside of it (money, economical issues, etc.), then that is also completely legitimate. They have the right to stay where they think they can get the best deal, and it is the job of the federal gov't to make the best deal it can to its citizens.

I have a greater and greater admiration for Chretien. The man sure is a fighter. I don't know many people his age who would still have the energy and spunk necessary to take all of this on. I do think Gomery was biased. His 'small town cheap' comment, the fact that he has as his chief legal counsel the former chief of staff of Brian Mulroney, that Gomery hired his chief legal counsel from the law firm his daughter works for...all speak of less than sterling personal conduct. Considering he was supposed to be above reproach himself in order to have the necessary moral authority to pass judgment, these actions of his are suspicious. It wouldn't be the first time an inquiry rubber stamped a gov't decision decided in advance, and considering the final judgment of Gomery is also so politically expedient for the ruling party (insofar as it exonerates the current regime) makes it suspect in my eyes. We still don't know so much of what has gone on, we still have many of the same questions we had before, that I really don't feel that a light has been shone on gov't corruption at all...

 

[TenPenny]

Chretien appointed people he could trust to run the program as he wanted it to run....and he would deliberately have kept Martin out of the loop. The two guys hated each other. My God, Chretien had staffers write down the names of party members who went to John Turner's birthday party, so he could get retribution later. This was Turner, you know, one time PM...lifelong Liberal.....

If we all took the time to investigate Chretien's actions, we'd think Mulroney was a pretty straightforward guy. Chretien is an extremely nasty, old style politician.

 

[PoisonPete2]

Cretien is a thug. In the '70's Turner refused to impose wage control so Creten stepped forward. He was quite willing to have civil rights suspended and arrest people before the arrival of a dictator to BC. He used political pressure to get a bank loan for a gangster in his riding. He took jobs and sensitive revenue information from Ottawa to his riding etc. etc.

 

[MMMike]

Can we put the whole sponsership tempest in a teacup in some kind of perspective. The highest number I have found is $355 million dollars. To date about half that money has been recovered. Paul Martin says every cent that was funneled to the Liberal party will be returned. A good percentage of the remaining money is also recoverable. Government revenues are in the area of $151 billion. If it ends up we can recover all but $25 million. we are talking about .0016 percent of the budget. On the other hand, the cost to service Mulroney's debt requires 27 cents of every tax dollar collected, or about forty billion per year. Harper wants to spend even more money. Harper has a monthly meeting with Mulroney. What, I wonder, do they talk about.

With government spending, there is no acceptable percentage of waste or fraud. Every penny needs to be weighed, priorities balanced, and money spent to do the most good. Zero tolerance! We're not talking about private shareholder money, we're talking about hard-earned money from the pocket of the taxpayer. How many lives could that $25 million save? How many people could receive a tax holiday for life?

 

[#juan]

Mike, I can only guess you are a Harper fan

You might even be a Mulroney fan, I don't know. What I did was to compare all the moaning and whining about the sponsership scandal but I don't hear anyone complain about the debt Mulroney added fifty billion to every year he was in office. Personally, I would rather have a sponsership scandal every year and have no debt.