`A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi...

[wallyj]

Bj,oh man...any facts that you dispute? Min O ,yes you are right on many points. There was debate and protests about Bush's decision.Securing the oil is important because that is Iraq's only economy. Mr. Ritter said that they had found no WMD's. He did not say that inspections should be thrown out the window.Saddam thumbed his nose at the UN. Maybe Bush should have waited,I think not,but you know about hindsight. I think that the troops should have pulled out once they found Saddam.I have never said that this was for the people of Iraq,it was for you and me and the rest of the world.

 

[wallyj]

Cue up" America the Beautiful".

 

[Minority Observer84]

Bj,oh man...any facts that you dispute? Min O ,yes you are right on many points. There was debate and protests about Bush's decision.Securing the oil is important because that is Iraq's only economy. Mr. Ritter said that they had found no WMD's. He did not say that inspections should be thrown out the window.Saddam thumbed his nose at the UN. Maybe Bush should have waited,I think not,but you know about hindsight. I think that the troops should have pulled out once they found Saddam.I have never said that this was for the people of Iraq,it was for you and me and the rest of the world.

It's not hindsight that's my point .
George tenant the director of the CIA During the invasion briefed Bush that sectarian civil war was going to a result of this invasion he still went ahead .
Mohamed El Bardi the man in charge of the UN nuclear watchdog said that iraq did not have any capability to produce WMDS and of course due to the sanctions there was no possibility to buy them .
As for your point about the UN it was invalidated many countries on good terms with the US violate the UN every year and Iraq was the only one invaded .
I'd like to explore what you mean by for you and me ? Explain this please .

 

[wallyj]

In your previous post,YOU wrote that civil war COULD be one of the outcomes.One of many. Mohamed was wrong,talk to a Kurd for verification.Please, the sanctions would stop saddam from buying them through the underground,don't be so naive.Everything has a price.The "you and me" was meant to symbolize our family,friends,and way of life,not you and I exclusively. I hope that clears things up for you.

 

[JBeee]

In your previous post,YOU wrote that civil war COULD be one of the outcomes.One of many. Mohamed was wrong,talk to a Kurd for verification.Please, the sanctions would stop saddam from buying them through the underground,don't be so naive.Everything has a price.The "you and me" was meant to symbolize our family,friends,and way of life,not you and I exclusively. I hope that clears things up for you.

..."and the rest of the world" as well?

 

[Minority Observer84]

In your previous post,YOU wrote that civil war COULD be one of the outcomes.One of many. Mohamed was wrong,talk to a Kurd for verification.Please, the sanctions would stop saddam from buying them through the underground,don't be so naive.Everything has a price.The "you and me" was meant to symbolize our family,friends,and way of life,not you and I exclusively. I hope that clears things up for you.

Mohamed El Bardi was not wrong because there were no WMD's in Iraq.
And i still don't understand how does invading Iraq make our family , friends and way of life safer ?

 

[Zzarchov]

The Fact in Bush is the one who undermined the UN and went into iraq despite their warnings and objections ,

If they object to fulfilling something they agreed upon, then they are just a paper tiger. Let me put it this way, they had one resolution saying Iraq should be invaded, whether or not anyone did anything about it for over a decade.

Now, they did not pass a resolution saying "Do not invade Iraq", which is the only thing that would over rule their previous resolution.

And before you said they did, they did not. As even if everyone else in the UN had wanted that, it would require the support of 2 UN members in particular, Britain and the USA, who obviously aren't going to veto their own resolution.


Kofi Anan is not the UN, Only 5 nations in the UN matter; America, Britain, France, Russia and China. All 5 agreed that force should be used on Iraq, and all 5 did not agree whether to ignore their previous decision.


Now, I realise this is not why America invaded Iraq. Im not stupid.

But you aren't arguing America invaded for the wrong reasons, you are arguing it was wrong to invade Iraq.

It was the right thing to do to invade Iraq, it was just done for the wrong reasons.

 

[wallyj]

Hello,my name is wallyj, and I am an islamaphobe. It first started about 6 years ago when my boss came up to me and said " Walter,the world is going crazy,someone just flew a jetliner into the world trade center". I watched the TV,I was in shock. Everyone at work was quiet.One of my buds came up and said "come on,let's go to your place and find out what is going on". We left,went home,woke up my BROWN babe,and turned on the news. For a couple of hours(remember we are on company time) we watched the feed from NY and shook our heads. For the next few weeks ,everytime a plane went by overhead, I watched it.Was it people travelling or was it on it's way to bring grief? Today an airplane overhead does not warrant a glance. That is why terrorism terrifies. Deny the threat and you feed the threat.Apoligize and enable,well I don't know what to say.

 

[Minority Observer84]

Hello,my name is wallyj, and I am an islamaphobe. It first started about 6 years ago when my boss came up to me and said " Walter,the world is going crazy,someone just flew a jetliner into the world trade center". I watched the TV,I was in shock. Everyone at work was quiet.One of my buds came up and said "come on,let's go to your place and find out what is going on". We left,went home,woke up my BROWN babe,and turned on the news. For a couple of hours(remember we are on company time) we watched the feed from NY and shook our heads. For the next few weeks ,everytime a plane went by overhead, I watched it.Was it people travelling or was it on it's way to bring grief? Today an airplane overhead does not warrant a glance. That is why terrorism terrifies. Deny the threat and you feed the threat.Apoligize and enable,well I don't know what to say.

You still have not answered my question ?
Are you saying the people who live in iraq deserve to be invaded and killed because people of the same religious group (19 members of the same religion) who come from other countries attacked a building in the states and killed thousands ?

 

[Zzarchov]

Im saying they deserve to be invaded becase 20% of the population supressed 80% in a campaign of terror and genocide.

You think the soldier who bulldozed the bodies of kurdish children into pits came from thin air and disappeared again? Or the ones who strung Shia women and children from their ankles and dangled them from lamposts as a warning to the menfolk to stop fighting their Sunni Overlords?

They deserve to be invaded because they propped up a dictator, served in his forces and committed genocide against fellow human beings because they were the wrong race or religion. And thats what the vow "never again' means we are supposed to do.

Whether or not thats why the invasion happened is irrelevants. Its a good thing it did happen.

Whether or not others are to blame is irrelevant too. Thats a seperate matter. If you two people murder an old woman, you don't let one go because he acted with an accomplice.

 

[Said1]

It's not hindsight that's my point .
George tenant the director of the CIA During the invasion briefed Bush that sectarian civil war was going to a result of this invasion he still went ahead .
Mohamed El Bardi the man in charge of the UN nuclear watchdog said that iraq did not have any capability to produce WMDS and of course due to the sanctions there was no possibility to buy them .
As for your point about the UN it was invalidated many countries on good terms with the US violate the UN every year and Iraq was the only one invaded .
I'd like to explore what you mean by for you and me ? Explain this please .

The sanctions were part of a Ceasefire Agreement between nations, not a Peace Agreement between nations. If the conditions of the agreement are not upheld, the Ceasefire is no longer upheld. The No-Fly-Zone violations (firing at air-craft patrolling the zone, for example) enforced by the US, Britian and France (France until '98 ) were reason enough.

 

[wallyj]

Shhh, Z-man,if no one brings those facts up we can deny that it ever happened.

 

[Zzarchov]

And insurgent shooting at an American because he invaded his country is nothing like a drug dealer shooting at a cop because he got busted at a drug buy .

Ignoring the fact this is a democratically elected government, with many insurgent forces still fighting represented (showing also the majority of Iraqi's do not want them in power).

Why are you assuming all a cop does is shoot drug dealers?

What about the fundementalist mormon who kidnaps a few teenage girls and holes up in a compound? Declaring he never agreed to be subject to this US government, never voted on any laws, and is setting up his own country in an abandoned farm he owns.

Should the cops just turn their back and let him be? In fact , thats very closely related to what US troops are doing in Iraq wouldn't you say?

 

[talloola]

Im saying they deserve to be invaded becase 20% of the population supressed 80% in a campaign of terror and genocide.

You think the soldier who bulldozed the bodies of kurdish children into pits came from thin air and disappeared again? Or the ones who strung Shia women and children from their ankles and dangled them from lamposts as a warning to the menfolk to stop fighting their Sunni Overlords?

They deserve to be invaded because they propped up a dictator, served in his forces and committed genocide against fellow human beings because they were the wrong race or religion. And thats what the vow "never again' means we are supposed to do.

Whether or not thats why the invasion happened is irrelevants. Its a good thing it did happen.

Whether or not others are to blame is irrelevant too. Thats a seperate matter. If you two people murder an old woman, you don't let one go because he acted with an accomplice.

They went into Iraq in search for something that Bush and his henchmen seemed to allready know,
that there was 'no' weapons of mass distruction. We can't, now, change the reason for going there,
and pretend it was OK, cause of what Sadam Husein did. We aren't talking about a simple field
trip here, this is 'war' and the killing of thousands and thousands of soldiers and civilians.
The reasons for doing that have to be spelled out, accurately, and in detail before doing such attacks.

 

[Minority Observer84]

Whether or not thats why the invasion happened is irrelevants. Its a good thing it did happen.

Whether or not others are to blame is irrelevant too. Thats a seperate matter. If you two people murder an old woman, you don't let one go because he acted with an accomplice.

Again your analogy does not meet the facts on the ground or the reports we are getting from Iraq .
A better one would go something like this :
Two guys know each other one of them "runs" what they refer to as skags in OZ , skag is scared of the guy who runs him so if he asked him to murder an old women and she was his own mother he'd probably do it .
But that is irrelevant the fact is the situation for the people in Iraq is terrible now , worse than the days of Saddam and more civillians have been killed by this invasion than Saddam did , the fact is people in Iraq can no longer eat carp out of the euphrates because of all the body's that get dumped in that river daily . You talk about Uday raping young women what about Haditha ? Not only did they rape the girl they killed her entire family , do you really think this is an isolated incident ? In a recent survey 60% of the Iraqi population supported the insurgents why do you think that is the case ?
So sure it's a great thing , the country in the world with the 2nd largest oil reserves has citizens who have no food , so they turn to a traditional source of nutrition the euphrates river and they can't even get that anymore . Every large population center in Iraq is a warzone directly due to US intervention .
UN Resolutions Concerning Iraq included Resolution 678 which allowed the Us of force against Saddam Hussien in back up to Resolutions 660 and 661 which denounced his invasion and called for a troop pullout .
There is no UN resolution saying not to invade but Head personal in the UN Asked that this no go through including the secretary general . And the UN resolution you seem to refer to 1441 was drafted in 2002 and in no where does it authorize the us of force or threaten it . Also It's the aftermath of this resolution that caused Mohamed EL Bardi and Hans Blix to go to Iraq and look for WMDs which they did not find any WMDs and though Hans Blix said Iraq was still not in full compliance the UN did not call for an invasion and no such resolution appears in their records .

 

[Said1]

They went into Iraq in search for something that Bush and his henchmen seemed to allready know,
that there was 'no' weapons of mass distruction. We can't, now, change the reason for going there,
and pretend it was OK, cause of what Sadam Husein did. We aren't talking about a simple field
trip here, this is 'war' and the killing of thousands and thousands of soldiers and civilians.
The reasons for doing that have to be spelled out, accurately, and in detail before doing such attacks.

They didn't go into Iraq in 2003, they were already there. The mission changed in 2003, when previously they were there to uphold the peace and enforce conditions of the ceasefire agreements.

 

[Minority Observer84]

Ignoring the fact this is a democratically elected government, with many insurgent forces still fighting represented (showing also the majority of Iraqi's do not want them in power).

Why are you assuming all a cop does is shoot drug dealers?

What about the fundementalist mormon who kidnaps a few teenage girls and holes up in a compound? Declaring he never agreed to be subject to this US government, never voted on any laws, and is setting up his own country in an abandoned farm he owns.

Should the cops just turn their back and let him be? In fact , thats very closely related to what US troops are doing in Iraq wouldn't you say?

Under International Law no Election Held during and occupation can be considered valid or democratic . This is an issue of common sense one cannot vote freely when it's Americans with guns "guarding" the polls or when it's Americans with guns counting the votes , transporting the ballot boxes do i need to draw a picture of the many ways this election could have been rigged ?

Your ability to create incorrect analogies is a true talent . The Greater community determines the law everyone acting on his own to decide what should and should not be legal is a recipe for chaos. A better one would be the soviet union invading the us and an American citizen taking hostages and saying he is not subject to said government because he is in fact living in an occupied state .

 

[Minority Observer84]

The sanctions were part of a Ceasefire Agreement between nations, not a Peace Agreement between nations. If the conditions of the agreement are not upheld, the Ceasefire is no longer upheld. The No-Fly-Zone violations (firing at air-craft patrolling the zone, for example) enforced by the US, Britian and France (France until '98 ) were reason enough.

The Liberation of Kuwait was authorized by UN resolution 678 and that was what the cease fire was for . 668 in turn was a backup to resolution 660 which called for an Iraqi pullout of Kuwait . Hence if the pull out was complete which it was by 2003 the invasion of Iraqi soil can't legally be justified by a UN resolution to liberate Kuwait they are two different countries .

 

[wallyj]

Do you remember that 80% of the Iraqi's voted? They did this knowing that going to the polls could be deadly,not being derided by buddies,but actual death. Why do I bother? Zzarchov,you must be a racist,nazi,bush-loving,islamphobist.How dare you bring facts and common sense to a debate about opinions? Cheers to all,good night.On the bright side though,except for myself and a few others(you know who you are)testicular cancer will never be a concern.

 

[JBeee]

Hello,my name is wallyj, and I am an islamaphobe. It first started about 6 years ago when my boss came up to me and said " Walter,the world is going crazy,someone just flew a jetliner into the world trade center". I watched the TV,I was in shock. Everyone at work was quiet.One of my buds came up and said "come on,let's go to your place and find out what is going on". We left,went home,woke up my BROWN babe,and turned on the news. For a couple of hours(remember we are on company time) we watched the feed from NY and shook our heads. For the next few weeks ,everytime a plane went by overhead, I watched it.Was it people travelling or was it on it's way to bring grief? Today an airplane overhead does not warrant a glance. That is why terrorism terrifies. Deny the threat and you feed the threat.Apoligize and enable,well I don't know what to say.

"Hello,my name is wallyj, and I am an islamaphobe. It first started about 6 years ago when my boss came up to me and said " Walter,the world is going crazy,someone just flew a jetliner into the world trade center". .....

Well what a conicidence. I too was at work(listening to 1150 AM) when the towers were struck. My immediate reaction was one of....well lets just say I felt a great sense of justice had been served to Amerca and pay back for it`s injustices to the middle east over the last 50 years.
Finally someone had spoken aloud for the American people to listen.....so loud they could not just put a deaf ear to what their government was up to regarding their forgien policies through out the middle east.

9/11 , after the initial shock and awe of the event, finally brought home the realities of what was going on in the world. Day time soaps and talk shows came to a halt for almost a WEek! fer christ`s sake!

And to this day, I hear the phrase ` since 9/11 bla bla bla`.

Perhaps there was some good to come out of this wake-up call for the United States of America.