$40 billion for Booze, cigarette, and drug addicts?

[#juan]

Part of the proplem with health care

is that we keep shooting ourselves in the foot. Some clown decides we have too many nurses and we lay them off and we don't train as many. We suddenly find that we need the nurses who, by this time, have been leaving in droves. We push the schools to turn out more nurses and on it goes. It would help a hell of a lot if the federal government and the provinces were on the same page.

 

[fuzzylogix]

Yes Said 1, you would have to investigate just how much of that was spent, not on health care, but on commissions to LOOK at how to rectify the problem, on packages to laid off workers who then need to be rehired, on sending patients to the US at greater expense because we dont have enough services to treat them here, etc etc.

 

[Kreskin]

As for the cost of cigarette smoking I have always wanted to see it proven that smokers cost more than non. If they live 7 years less on average that's 7 years less of CPP, OAS and other government paid services. Everyone eventually gets sick and die from something.

 

[Said1]

Here is part of a pretty good report on health care, I can't find t he rest of it though!

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/english/pdf/romanow/pdfs/HCC_Chapter_7.pdf

 

[#juan]

Kreskin

I don't know for certain but I guess if one person stays healthy and continues to pay into the system until retirement at 65, while another gets sick at 55 and suffers along, in and out of hospital, radiation treatments, chemotharapy, for another 7 or 8 years before dying( I had a sister and a brother who did exactly that), I would guess that the non-smoker did more to keep the system in the black than the smoker. Not only did the smoker stop contributing but he/she cost the system a pile of money for treatments, surgery etc.

I know that all smokers don't get sick and all non-smokers don't stay healthy but there is enough evidence to say that smokers probably won't be as healthy as non-smokers.

 

[Kreskin]

#juan, I just haven't seen the economics fully explored. By the time smokers health becomes a burden it seems they're already on CPP or OAS, which we pay less of to them as a result. They've also forked out considerable taxes on smokes over the years. It all seems like a zero sum game to me.

 

[fuzzylogix]

Re: RE: $40 billion for Booze, cigarette, and drug addicts?

#juan, I just haven't seen the economics fully explored. By the time smokers health becomes a burden it seems they're already on CPP or OAS, which we pay less of to them as a result. They've also forked out considerable taxes on smokes over the years. It all seems like a zero sum game to me.

If you think that disease only strikes smokers late in the game when they have contributed to society all ready. THINK AGAIN, my dear friend. The sad statistics of younger and younger cancer rates and heart disease are astounding. And granted, smoking is not only to blame; pollution in general is killing us all. But adding to the burden of pollution and stress, the smoking increases exponentially the risk of serious diseases.

If you are a smoker,and I suspect from your defence you are, you are naive if you think that you will only get cancer or heart disease in your 60s, 70s, 80s. Nope. Strikes in th 40s, 30s, and even 20s now. There are genetic links to risks of smoking related disease. Hope you have the lucky gene.

And I have every sympathy for smokers. It IS an addiction. I am all for the government helping to get smokers to quit.

 

[fuzzylogix]

Re: RE: $40 billion for Booze, cigarette, and drug addicts?

Here is part of a pretty good report on health care, I can't find t he rest of it though!

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/english/pdf/romanow/pdfs/HCC_Chapter_7.pdf

Can you tell me:
1. How much did this report cost to produce?
2. How will this report help/change/improve the public health care system?
3. How many health care workers were laid off during the production time of this report?

 

[Kreskin]

Fuzzy, what's the cost of computer games and Mars Bars on society? Seems everyone is sitting around being healthy non-smokers getting diabetes and other obesity-related conditions.

All the cost explanations on society for smokers is anecdotal from what I've seen. I haven't seen any comprehensive economics study relating to it.

 

[fuzzylogix]

I dont in any way deny that the cost to society of lack of exercise and poor diets dont add to health care costs and that is why the government is trying to start preventative campaigning in these areas too.

Also, the casinos are adding to health costs. Gambling is an addiction. We now have to pay for governmentally sponsored gambling help lines and counselling. That is the bind that government gets in-----lots of revenue from smoking, drinking, gambling, even from old McDonalds......and then it has to deal with the health consequences.

If you really dont believe that smokers costs the country, then I dont think any of the many many many health studies will help you. Go to a hospital and sit beside a patient with smoking related lung cancer...... See how much it costs to try and give them a few more months of life. Good luck quitting- seriously- it is never too late to quit. But you have to believe you need to first.

 

[Kreskin]

Re: RE: $40 billion for Booze, cigarette, and drug addicts?

I dont in any way deny that the cost to society of lack of exercise and poor diets dont add to health care costs and that is why the government is trying to start preventative campaigning in these areas too.

Also, the casinos are adding to health costs. Gambling is an addiction. We now have to pay for governmentally sponsored gambling help lines and counselling. That is the bind that government gets in-----lots of revenue from smoking, drinking, gambling, even from old McDonalds......and then it has to deal with the health consequences.

If you really dont believe that smokers costs the country, then I dont think any of the many many many health studies will help you. Go to a hospital and sit beside a patient with smoking related lung cancer...... See how much it costs to try and give them a few more months of life. Good luck quitting- seriously- it is never too late to quit. But you have to believe you need to first.

A few more months of life in a hospital is cheaper than twenty more years of CPP and OAS/GIS and the eventual illness and hospitalization that comes to everyone.

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: $40 billion for Booze, cigarette, and drug addicts?

Something like 40% of Ontarios budgetted expenditures are health care related and this is expected to increase. Pretty sad in light of services lost over the years.

That isn't just due to an increase in health care costs though. That also has to do with them cutting funding to other areas, which makes the percentage spent on health care seem huge even though it hasn't increased nearly so much as a function of actual dollars.

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: $40 billion for Booze, cigarette, and drug addicts?

As for the cost of cigarette smoking I have always wanted to see it proven that smokers cost more than non. If they live 7 years less on average that's 7 years less of CPP, OAS and other government paid services. Everyone eventually gets sick and die from something.

It isn't how long you live that matters. The vast majority of health care expenses are spent in the last few months of people's lives. Smoking causes a lot of expensive and chronic diseases.

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: $40 billion for Booze, cigarette, and drug addicts?

[A few more months of life in a hospital is cheaper than twenty more years of CPP and OAS/GIS and the eventual illness and hospitalization that comes to everyone.

If you really think that, then you have no idea how much health care really costs. That's the one bad thing about the system in Canada. Let me tell you, I had a day surgery procedure here. I was in the hospital for less than 10 hours. I had my surgery done by a general surgeon (cheapest type of surgeon there is) and my anesthesia done by a nurse anesthetist (cheapest anesthesia provider there is). It cost over 20 thousand dollars. Treating cancer or emphysema or heart problems caused by smoking is soooooooo much more expensive. Non-smokers aren't necessarily going to get those illnesses and they aren't necessarily going to die in a hospital like you said.

 

[Kreskin]

Tracy, I've never seen an indepth analysis from an economics perpspective. I know smokers are in the minority and thus easy prey for politicians, who are damn good and fearmongering, but everything is anecdoctal piece meal stuff.

 

[Kreskin]

p.s. what does it cost to support a non-smoking ex marathon runner who has chronic joint problems, requires hip replacement surgeries and lives to age 92 on public pension plans/benefits? Is he/she any cheaper?

 

[Said1]

Re: RE: $40 billion for Booze, cigarette, and drug addicts?

Here is part of a pretty good report on health care, I can't find t he rest of it though!

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/english/pdf/romanow/pdfs/HCC_Chapter_7.pdf

Can you tell me:
1. How much did this report cost to produce?
2. How will this report help/change/improve the public health care system?
3. How many health care workers were laid off during the production time of this report?

Why? Why not get to the point - which would be what?

 

[Said1]

Re: RE: $40 billion for Booze, cigarette, and drug addicts?

Something like 40% of Ontarios budgetted expenditures are health care related and this is expected to increase. Pretty sad in light of services lost over the years.

That isn't just due to an increase in health care costs though. That also has to do with them cutting funding to other areas, which makes the percentage spent on health care seem huge even though it hasn't increased nearly so much as a function of actual dollars.

That's why I said "related".

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: $40 billion for Booze, cigarette, and drug addicts?

Tracy, I've never seen an indepth analysis from an economics perpspective. I know smokers are in the minority and thus easy prey for politicians, who are damn good and fearmongering, but everything is anecdoctal piece meal stuff.

I guess I just see it as plain old common sense. I have never seen a study telling me the sky is blue or water is wet either, but I believe both things. Like I said 10 hours in a hospital costs 20K, so I would think common sense would tell us that paying CPP for 20 years is actually cheaper (and that's assuming that marathon runner doesn't collapse of a heart attack killing him instantly like it would me if I ever tried to run that far ).

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: $40 billion for Booze, cigarette, and drug addicts?

p.s. what does it cost to support a non-smoking ex marathon runner who has chronic joint problems, requires hip replacement surgeries and lives to age 92 on public pension plans/benefits? Is he/she any cheaper?

Hip replacement surgeries are cheaper than emphysema, heart disease, lung cancer, etc. because they don't require long hospitalizations or excessive ongoing care. Hip replacement patients are usually in the hospital less than a week.