Dion's national program brings hope

[Walter]

Monday, July 14, 2008


CALGARY - Prime Minister Stephen Harper used a hometown audience Sunday to assail Liberal Leader Stephane Dion's carbon tax proposal as "the green shaft" and little more than a wealth transfer disguised as an environmental policy.
A week after Dion toured Calgary and Edmonton to sell his Green Shift carbon tax, Harper dedicated a good chunk of his speech to 800 Conservative supporters at Heritage Park to the Liberal proposal.
The prime minister, who missed most of Stampede due to G8 meetings in Japan, charged that the Green Shift has been a hidden agenda of the Liberals for years that will target the energy riches of Alberta and the wealth of other prosperous provinces.
"Dion's carbon tax is not an environment policy. It is just a wealth redistribution program disguised as an environment policy," Harper told the crowd. "The Green Shift is a green shaft and we must never let it happen to our country."
Dion's proposal would slap a levy on greenhouse gas emissions and return the roughly $15 billion in revenue via tax cuts.
But there's concern in the oilpatch that the Liberal program would disproportionately hurt Alberta, which is responsible for about one-third of all greenhouse gas emissions in Canada.
Dion insisted last week in Calgary that his policy is good for the entire country, and that leading Canadian economists agree a price needs to be put on greenhouse gas emissions.
"This fear mongering will not work," he told reporters at the time.
Dion also insisted that Canada risks isolating itself from the rest of the world if it doesn't slap a levy on carbon -- a measure he says that's absolutely necessary if environmental policies are to achieve substantial reductions in greenhouse gases.
But Dion's argument that the Green Shift is, above all, a key environmental measure, took a hit last week when one of his Ontario Liberal MPs suggested the tax is a wealth transfer that will pay for Liberal party promises.
Grit MP Ken Boshcoff stated on a blog post that his party's carbon tax program will target Alberta and its oil and gas industry.

 

[Lester]

Does anyone on this site think this is fair? that two provinces, Alberta and Saskatchewan should be robbed of their wealth? This why liberals don't get elected here, Dion is a fool to think that we would just hand it over to him without a fight, does anybody know if that nonwithstanding clause would work in this instance.

 

[Socrates the Greek]

Does anyone on this site think this is fair? that two provinces, Alberta and Saskatchewan should be robbed of their wealth? This why liberals don't get elected here, Dion is a fool to think that we would just hand it over to him without a fight, does anybody know if that nonwithstanding clause would work in this instance.

Lester, you can protect your provinces resource all you want Alberta, Saskatchewan, Nova Scotia, keep in mind that your province with all that energy wealth has a very limited life span. Soon the world will convert to a much cleaner energy source, and you and many others like you will be soon scratching your heads. BC is a PORT PROVENCE, ALBERTA IS LOCATED DEEP IN THE MOUNTAINS, THERE WILL BE A TIME SOON COMING UP THAT ALBERTA WILL BE SUBJECTED TO HIGH COST IN USING OUR PORTS. THEN YOU’LL WISH YOU WERE A BETTER FRIEND WITH YOUR LIMITED ENERGY my friend!!!!! ;-)

 

[Risus]

Lester, you can protect your provinces resource all you want Alberta, Saskatchewan, Nova Scotia, keep in mind that your province with all that energy wealth has a very limited life span. Soon the world will convert to a much cleaner energy source, and you and many others like you will be soon scratching your heads. BC is a PORT PROVENCE, ALBERTA IS LOCATED DEEP IN THE MOUNTAINS, THERE WILL BE A TIME SOON COMING UP THAT ALBERTA WILL BE SUBJECTED TO HIGH COST IN USING OUR PORTS. THEN YOU’LL WISH YOU WERE A BETTER FRIEND WITH YOUR LIMITED ENERGY my friend!!!!! ;-)

LOL, I guess you'll say anything to try to show support for your failing liberal party!

 

[Lester]

Well Soc, pehaps now that the northwest passage is opening up- you can stick your port up your ass, we can ship all our oil via pipeline to the state's with out bothering to go over the mountains and import the same way, how about a nice little tariff for goods that flow through Alberta to the rest of Canada from your PORTS. And the world may indeed switch to a cleaner source of energy, but not in your lifetime. BTW do you know where plastic comes from? A: OIL

 

[Socrates the Greek]

Well Soc, pehaps now that the northwest passage is opening up- you can stick your port up your ass, we can ship all our oil via pipeline to the state's with out bothering to go over the mountains and import the same way, how about a nice little tariff for goods that flow through Alberta to the rest of Canada from your PORTS. And the world may indeed switch to a cleaner source of energy, but not in your lifetime. BTW do you know where plastic comes from? A: OIL

Hey Lester first off let’s be civil here, as for the North West passage, too bloody cold you can have it. Southern BC is the place where the whole world is looking with great interest.
So, I wouldn’t be yakking so ill about BC’s port. Should Alberta decide to separate from Canada, they will be on their knees to quickly drum up support from BC, as I am sure BC will ask the question to Alberta what is in it for us for separating together with you, and Lester, Alberta the answer my friend will be port use for oil use. Who is trying to fool who here?;-)

 

[Socrates the Greek]

LOL, I guess you'll say anything to try to show support for your failing liberal party!

Mark my comment here, the Liberals will be back and that is not an overstatement.
I am only going there because you did, the Conservatives in the past 2 ½ years have stayed on the polls in the same periphery 34% just imagine in this amount of time one would thing that the Conservatives would be the next majority in waiting.

I don’t want to disappoint you but the Liberals may not come in with a majority in the next election soon, but trust me they will be the next minority Government of Canada, after they choose a new leader in the 2016 general election they will have a clear shot at a majorety. The Canadian voter remembers the Conservatives as the political PARTY OF MANY NAMES, the reason for that the Conservative party is not really sure of its real identity as a political force, the Tories, the Canadian Alliance, the Reform (that was a scary time), the Progressive Conservatives now under Harper all that in the past 18 years. For the past 40 years the Liberals have maintained a solid identity. “VIVA LA LIBERAL”
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

[Risus]

Mark my comment here, the Liberals will be back and that is not an overstatement.
I am only going there because you did, the Conservatives in the past 2 ½ years have stayed on the polls in the same periphery 34% just imagine in this amount of time one would thing that the Conservatives would be the next majority in waiting.

I don’t want to disappoint you but the Liberals may not come in with a majority in the next election soon, but trust me they will be the next minority Government of Canada, after they choose a new leader in the 2016 general election they will have a clear shot at a majorety. The Canadian voter remembers the Conservatives as the political PARTY OF MANY NAMES, the reason for that the Conservative party is not really sure of its real identity as a political force, the Tories, the Canadian Alliance, the Reform (that was a scary time), the Progressive Conservatives now under Harper all that in the past 18 years. For the past 40 years the Liberals have maintained a solid identity. “VIVA LA LIBERAL”
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

The voting public will not soon forget the cretin, cretien.

 

[Lester]

Hey Lester first off let’s be civil here, as for the North West passage, too bloody cold you can have it. Southern BC is the place where the whole world is looking with great interest.

Who cares if it's cold were looking for freighters and tankers not cruise ships

So, I wouldn’t be yakking so ill about BC’s port. Should Alberta decide to separate from Canada, they will be on their knees to quickly drum up support from BC, as I am sure BC will ask the question to Alberta what is in it for us for separating together with you, and Lester, Alberta the answer my friend will be port use for oil use. Who is trying to fool who here?

Alberta would be free to leave just as Quebec is(we do not need to drum up anything except for oil)- I reiterate why do we need your port when any ol' U.S. port will do- I'm not trying to fool anyone, I'm just stating the difficulties in your argument. you are under the delusion that AB -Sask union would not be feasible without BC, I think your wrong:-?

 

[Socrates the Greek]

The voting public will not soon forget the cretin, cretien.

Risus, Chrétien was exonerated at the end, were have you been? Chrétien has a perfect record of his T4 slips, Brown Bag Mulroney has a red flag at the revenue Canada records, come on my good pal we agree to disagree here, but reality dictates that the whole on the wall it may be now patched, but at one time during in power, Mulroney’s hand went through doing silent deals and very late Inco tax filing.

In fact if the German arms dealer had not opened his yap, Mulroney may have never paid the tax on the $300,000 or $225,000 as stated by Brown Bags M. So who is the crook here Mulroney or Chrétien?. :roll:

 

[Socrates the Greek]

Who cares if it's cold were looking for freighters and tankers not cruise ships



Alberta would be free to leave just as Quebec is(we do not need to drum up anything except for oil)- I reiterate why do we need your port when any ol' U.S. port will do- I'm not trying to fool anyone, I'm just stating the difficulties in your argument. you are under the delusion that AB -Sask union would not be feasible without BC, I think your wrong:-?

Hey Lester if we look at the context as in Real Estate, the slogan goes location, location, location. So, in such a case Alberta and Saskatchewan may say good bye to Canada but, port cities are without a doubt the dream place to live for many people.
And besides lets face it, when a new energy source replaces oil, then Albertans and Saskatchewanians will move to BC looking for work. Ha ha ;-);-):smile:

 

[Risus]

Risus, Chrétien was exonerated at the end, were have you been? Chrétien has a perfect record of his T4 slips, Brown Bag Mulroney has a red flag at the revenue Canada records, come on my good pal we agree to disagree here, but reality dictates that the whole on the wall it may be now patched, but at one time during in power, Mulroney’s hand went through doing silent deals and very late Inco tax filing.

In fact if the German arms dealer had not opened his yap, Mulroney may have never paid the tax on the $300,000 or $225,000 as stated by Brown Bags M. So who is the crook here Mulroney or Chrétien?. :roll:

Chretien is still a slimebag, and he destroyed the liberal party.

 

[Ron in Regina]

<P>Whether this is an East vs. West (or a Class) issue or not, in the short term this "Green Shift" Liberal Tax Program doesn't seem to have much to do with the Environment (positively or negatively) except to use it as an excuse to tax us. The term "revenue neutral" is tossed out often, and I'm assuming it means "revenue neutral" to the Federal government if the Liberals come into power. For all of the tax collection, tax cuts, child benefit pay outs, and so on and so forth...an estimate of a percentage of this 15.4 BILLION collected to be used to administer this monstrosity to keep it "revenue neutral" to the Federal government never seems to be mentioned. Lets assume 25% for the sake of some grade school level math (I am not an Economist by any means). 15.40 billion collected in this tax (6 billion plus from Alberta & Saskatchewan) - 3.85 billion in administration of this tax plan (assuming 25% collected) - 9.00 billion in tax cuts - 2.90 billion in a child tax benefit = -0.35 billion to improve the environment, new investment in green technologies, ect...So....where's the "green" part of this "Green Shift" plan suppose to come from?<BR>Factoring in administration (again assuming 25% & yes I know what happens when one ass/u/me's), the 3 billion that might have been left for the green part of this tax grab becomes a NEGATIVE 1/3 billion dollars. It cost how many billions to administer the failed Gun Registry before the program was scrapped??? The Gun registry was nowhere near as complicated as this "Green Shift" wealth distribution (I mean Environment) program, so assuming only 25% of all revenue collected by this tax going towards its administration is most likely too small of a percentage, and the "Green Shift" will already be short of funds and needing a hand out with ZERO dollars going to any environmental issues...needing more tax dollars than projected right from the get-go. I'm not against the environment, but I'm against getting screwed over.</P>

 

[Lester]

Ron: It will become another bureaucratic nightmare that acheives absolutely nothing but a bigger and more costly government plus cause a huge rift in Provincial/Federal relations. IMO thing are going alright, the feds are running surpluses thanks to oil, Alberta and Sask are paying more than their faishare and are not missing the money that much, and the National debt is still being paid down.

 

[Lester]

Hey Lester if we look at the context as in Real Estate, the slogan goes location, location, location. So, in such a case Alberta and Saskatchewan may say good buy to Canada but, port cities are without a doubt the dream place to live for many people.
And besides lets face it, when a new energy source replaces oil, then Albertans and Saskatchewanians will move to BC looking for work. Ha ha ;-);-):smile:

I'll take the mountains over your condom and syringe laden beaches any day:lol:. and it is you who should wake up and smell the coffee instead of living in your little dream world. I went through the NEP days here, we all managed quite well without having to move to BC. Should this yet unnamed miracle energy source appear you shouldn't forget it will take sometime to build an infrastructure for it.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Lester: I concur with your assessment of the situation. In my rambling way I was trying to point out that once the administration costs are factored in, the Liberal Party has already promised more money flowing out of the "Green Shift" to social (vote buying) programs than they claim they'll take in with this wealth distribution program. What social evil will they have to tax next to cover the short fall in revenue? I vote for the "Stephane Dion 'Swear Jar'," and every time a Western Canadian say's a discouraging word about the Liberal Party, they'll have to throw a Nickel in the Jar. We'd at least feel like we where getting something for out money that way. The scary thing is that, even through the Liberals will do very poorly out here (I'm being kind), they'll still most likely be the next government in Ottawa and then they'll jam this thing down our throats. It's not going to go over well out here. BC is as deep into the oil industry as Saskatchewan is (though both aren't even close to Alberta's league at this point and may never be), but as far as who will do better provincially if Canada splits apart, the three Western states (who would no longer be provinces) together with an open invitation to Manitoba would be the best bet. As far as our limited life span for our oil wealth, at the current level of production, we should be running dry about 2166 with the current proven reserves. If we triple production we could be running low in 50 years and then we'd be mining Uranium (and Potash) out of Saskatchewan faster than you would believe possible. By that time clean coal technology would be five decades old, and it was just announced today that, while looking for Diamonds (and Gold) in Saskatchewan recently, we accidentally discovered a new coal deposit that's even bigger than the one south of Estevan (Ops!!!). Canada's proved Oil reserves are 178,200,000,000 barrels (including the oil sands that we know about on the Alberta side) and I'm going to assume most of that is in the three Western provinces. All of Canada's current consumption (as of 2006) was 2,290,000 barrels per day. The Resourses in Western Canada may have a limited life span, but that life span may be longer than that of my future Great Grandchildren. The numbers don't support the "oil in Canada is going to run out soon" argument so for those that are still using it, just let it go. Oh yeah, there's only 1,537,000,000,000 cu.m. (that's 1.537 trillion) of Natural Gas proved reserves also so that's not running dry anytime soon either so that argument can be put on the shelf for a while too. The "Green Shift" will kick BC in the crotch as surely as it will Alberta and Saskatchewan. Perhaps not to the same extent in the more obviously targeted ways (so far) but I'm assuming that the mining and forestry industries will not go untouched, and the higher cost of Diesel for the ships in the BC ports and the trucks on the roads (and the trains on the rails) will have a negative impact on the BC economy. As beautiful as the mountains are, it costs a whole lot to haul anything over them right now without the added Federal carbon tax on top of BC's own self imposed Provincial carbon tax (and the federal excise fuel tax and the GST on top of that tax). In the context of Real Estate, Alberta and Saskatchewan aren't on the beach, but it doesn't hurt to have the bank in our backyards.

 

[Socrates the Greek]

Chretien is still a slimebag, and he destroyed the liberal party.

The man gave the Liberal party height and vision. Three landslide electoral victories and went out with grace. Mulroney 2 landslide victories and went out with shame on his signature. Let’s not compare scum with class. :roll:

 

[Socrates the Greek]

I'll take the mountains over your condom and syringe laden beaches any day:lol:. and it is you who should wake up and smell the coffee instead of living in your little dream world. I went through the NEP days here, we all managed quite well without having to move to BC. Should this yet unnamed miracle energy source appear you shouldn't forget it will take sometime to build an infrastructure for it.

Lester as for your comparison to BC’s condom and syringe laden beaches, hey look in your back yard you may find forgotten natives on glue passed out at the curb. While some Albertans call them f Indians and how they wish they were not a part of their neighborhoods. The injustice of the white man. I am sure you know what I mean. Your nice little corner with all the rich oil resource, sell it to the rest of Canada at a premium. Ha ha ha. You will need our port one day and we will not need Alberta’s dirty sands.

 

[Lester]

Lester as for your comparison to BC’s condom and syringe laden beaches, hey look in your back yard you may find forgotten natives on glue passed out at the curb. While some Albertans call them f Indians and how they wish they were not a part of their neighborhoods. The injustice of the white man. I am sure you know what I mean. Your nice little corner with all the rich oil resource, sell it to the rest of Canada at a premium. Ha ha ha. You will need our port one day and we will not need Alberta’s dirty sands.

That day is far off, and I don't know where you get this f indians bullshyte from are you implying that all the natives are glue sniffing disgrace? there happen to be quite a few well off natives in this community, and as with ANY community there will be substance abusers no matter what the race, Have you been down to Hastings Street lately? Anyway this is just hypothetical b.s. Dion will never get in -

1.he's too stupid, has no idea what he's talking about
2. Any tax grab will be met with any number of unpleasant responses from the Provinces especially Alberta.
3. People won't allow the feds to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs especially when the consequences are spelled out- increased taxes, no more oil money flowing into federal coffers, a deficit once again, decreased social spending. A simple fact is whether anybody likes it or not Alberta is willingly paying a big share of the bills, this allows the country to prosper while the U.S. tanks. Without the Dirty Oil money the east would be tied to the U.S. economy and would be headed in the same direction as they are.

I'm a Canadian, then an Albertan, we don't mind doling out the cash, but we won't allow anyone to steal it in the form of an altruistic environmental measure.

 

[Risus]

The man gave the Liberal party height and vision. Three landslide electoral victories and went out with grace. :roll:

If you believe that, considering what he left Martin, I have swamp land in Florida to sell you...