Son's death in Afganistan

[talloola]

This is not an american war, (for the umpteenth time), it is NATO, and it is being fought
originally for the innocent people who died in the twin towers, people FROM ALL NATIONS.

 

[Scott Free]

As a parent I thought about it, is this a war worth the death of my son ?

Absolutely not.

If he wants to go to defend freedom then he should remember he is taking it away from the Afghanis; that is to say, their right to self determination whatever that might mean and whether we like their choices or not - that is the real cost of freedom: we might not like what they are doing but they are free to do it. For example; if we go in and kill all the extremists some will survive but they won't have any in their government. That isn't as good as it might seem because they still haven't gone through the learning process (say like we did with Christianity) so the extremists will reemerge. No one will know the dangers of extremism because they haven't learned it, it was artificially expunged from them. We can tell them the dangers until we're blue in the face but it won't help. They need to go through the process just like we did.

If he is going because he feels a need to help the Afghani people then, noble as that might be, the best way to help them would be to stop occupying them. They have been under forms of occupation for decades. We could support them and offer advice as they rebuild their country. Absolutely some elements we don't like would get in but eventually, through a process of friendship, they would change. You can't rush liberty. People need to discover it and make it their own. You can not give liberty; that is an oxymoron.

If he is going because of 9/11 then he needs to understand that the US let bin Laden escape. The war is over until they find him again. Anything else is just us bullying a third world country. The Afghani people didn't have anything to do with 9/11. If anything the US government is far more complicit than the Afghanis. Imagine going into a school to find a bully that gave you a black eye, you don't find him, so you start fighting with everyone else - a simple metaphor but true non the less IMO.

There are better ways to find adventure if that is his motivation. If he thinks it will make him a man then he should know that basic training will break him and rebuild him into an order taking trigger pulling emotionally unstable marshmallow. I have met and known many soldiers and this is always how they have struck me. Physically tough but mentally and emotionally soft. That's my observation anyway.

 

[Walter]

I have met and known many soldiers and this is always how they have struck me. Physically tough but mentally and emotionally soft. That's my observation anyway.

Must be all the draft dodgers living in BC. Talk to some current members of the Canadian forces; more mature young people you will not meet.

 

[MikeyDB]

It (Afghanistan action) is only a "NATO war" because like the American invaision of Iraq, the people of the United States need to have a scapegoat for killing and looting another nation. Defense industry contractors have been and are making fortunes as the result of both of these conflicts and Afghanistan in particular has nothing to do with NATO or any other nonsense just like the invaision of Iraq had anything to do with the fundamental precepts undergirding the notion of a "United Nations".

People still believe that whatever they're being told about Afghanistan is the truth and the reason why Canada is involved is because we're honoring our "committment" to NATO...

Like the Stephen Harper government, (bed-mate with American industry and ideology) when it serves the interests of American industry and the American agenda, the truth can be hidden and eventually forgotten. Our government was spared the ignomy of participation in the imperialist American invaision of Iraq because even a fool like Jean Chretien could see through American lies. Our government is holding the lives of Canadian service personnel to a "standard" of international "committment" that Harper et al. feel inappropriate when it comes to seeking accountability for the Iraqi invaision. On one hand the arguement is "We have a responsibility to meet our NATO responsibilities...and on the other hand..."It's perfectly OK for the United States to commit to war and kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqis under the aegis of the "United Nations" mandate....

You can of course believe that it's OK to beat your wife and not OK to beat your children...

And when you do, what does that make you?

 

[Scott Free]

Must be all the draft dodgers living in BC. Talk to some current members of the Canadian forces; more mature young people you will not meet.

I do acknowledge that military training does do some good things for a persons character but that does depend on the character they originally started with. I have had friends in the military and know quite a few retired military people. What I have observed is that they are trained to react first question later and this is training seems to come at a high emotional cost.

I have watched an ex Sargent once almost go to tears because someone was razing him. He freaked out and killed a door because he had no emotional defense, it had all been turned physical. Great for war not so much for real life. So I watched everyone else from the military I knew and realized that was what gave them "good character" was that if they got excited they wanted to kill, so they avoid it. They couldn't deal with emotional pain which is also why so many are alcoholics.

There is a history to this training and a reason it is done. It goes back to WWII before the training was employed. The training was developed after the second world war when they realized no more than 10% of soldiers actually did any real fighting. They discovered that a persons natural response under stress is to hide. So today they "break" a man then put him back together so his first instinct is to kill. It creates an emotional basket case but a dangerous army.

I'm not trying to insult anyone. I think the OP was asking a sincere and honest question where the pros and cons need to be weighed in order to make a responsible decision.

On the upside they get really good pensions.

 

[dancing-loon]

Scott, that was a very good answer you gave... I applaud you!

I oppose war on an emotional basis first, as I think all humans are entitled to live in peace and harmony. Also, I come from a totally devastated WW country! It is my own observation that wars are inhuman! I, too have a son! Why would I want him to go to war and risk being blown to bits and pieces? What good is that to him, for me and for Canada as a whole? Nothing!! His life wouldn't matter to the Harper or Bush government... not one little iota. They only have their crooked, inhumane ideologies of profit in whatever form, or self aggrandizement in mind, and then their lies of luring the unsuspecting young boys into their battles!!! They either portray the perceived enemy of their choice as a heinous monster that threatens to take over the world, OR they play on the shame and guilt and honor feelings of us and our children! The poor suffering Afghans who beg us to stay and fight for them!! If we let them down, if we let the Americans down, then we are cowards, spineless wimps and don't deserve to be called Canadians.
I am mature enough now and can see through their fog candles, their real reasons for sending the young boys into the fire!!
The time has come when humanity has to stop fighting each other and negotiate in earnest! Rather help the poorer nations instead of taking advantage of them!! Such attitude would eliminate wars.

 

[MikeyDB]

Dancing_Loon

What you're asking for is the next evolutionary stage of Homo Sapiens.....sorry that's just not possible.

Humanity has been re-shapen into "market-share", into "consumer eclectics" into anything that can write a signature on a credit application....

Human beings are prepared to resign their association with anyone and everyone who tells them the truth. From Elliot Spitzer to George Bush, we've invested in the lies that masquerade as truth.

Human beings are extinct and have been extinct for some time.

 

[Scott Free]

Dancing_Loon

What you're asking for is the next evolutionary stage of Homo Sapiens.....sorry that's just not possible.

Actually it is. Evolution uses a process of natural selection. So where Dancing_Loon is the new human and won't let her son fight she is ensuring that his and her genetic material will make it into the next generations gene pool. People of the old order will be mourning their dead sons. Also because Dancing_Loon's son is also likely to be more stable he is likely to make more of a contribution to society, prosper and have children. So he will be making a contribution to our society not marching in little circles taking orders. This is significant in that because he is of the new order his mothers memes will have a greater influence on our culture.

These things do take time and evolution is a slow process of individual contribution not a mass one. So not only is it possible it is inevitable because Dancing_Loon has just presented the best strategy for survival. Her progeny, if they listen to her, will be more successful than if they don't.

 

[dancing-loon]

Scott, I feel like you are mocking me! But, yes, if my kind of attitude were passed along in genes, then your theory would hold true. Anyway, my husband was also against wars! We passed on a double whammy of good genes to our children! I'm very happy now!!! This good news I must tell my children!:lol:

 

[Scott Free]

Scott, I feel like you are mocking me! But, yes, if my kind of attitude were passed along in genes, then your theory would hold true. Anyway, my husband was also against wars! We passed on a double whammy of good genes to our children! I'm very happy now!!! This good news I must tell my children!:lol:

I definitely wasn't mocking you. If our species is going to survive then we must make this evolutionary/meme (I really don't know which it is) step IMO.

 

[dancing-loon]

Dancing_Loon

What you're asking for is the next evolutionary stage of Homo Sapiens.....sorry that's just not possible.

Humanity has been re-shapen into "market-share", into "consumer eclectics" into anything that can write a signature on a credit application....

Human beings are prepared to resign their association with anyone and everyone who tells them the truth. From Elliot Spitzer to George Bush, we've invested in the lies that masquerade as truth.

Human beings are extinct and have been extinct for some time.

Mikey, nothing is impossible!!!
Humanity incarnates in big waves. Right now the Atlanteans with their advanced technology is back full force. Very apparent in America.
I feel that I am probably from Lemuria, the submerged continent of Mu!

Alright, I better not upset the apple cart. Have things to do, must go again.

CU later;-)

 

[CDNBear]

For the idiot rolling on the floor!!!

Ah yes, and the name calling begins. Grow up. And after reading the rest or your posts here, you need to bone up on more then just history.

IED explosion claims life of Canadian soldier

A Canadian soldier died in Afghanistan late Sunday after he stepped on an explosive device. He was carrying out a routine foot patrol in the turbulent Panjwaii District.

Do you know his name Loonie?

Do you know the names of any other Van Doos that have perished?

Do you know any of the names of any other Canadian Soldiers that have fallen?

Without Googling them?

I know them all. I've wept for them all.

I have met and known many soldiers and this is always how they have struck me. Physically tough but mentally and emotionally soft. That's my observation anyway.

Mentally soft? I beg to differ. Mentally they are broken down and rebuilt to work and live under extreme situations and circumstances. Mentally being able to query, analyse, equate and adapt in real time seconds.

Emotions are for pussies, emotions on the battlefield cause second guessing and are not combat effective. Yes we do have difficulty dealing with things once removed from a regimented and oft volatile environment. But there is help for that.

I'm not trying to insult anyone. I think the OP was asking a sincere and honest question where the pros and cons need to be weighed in order to make a responsible decision.

It's not the decision of the parent, the decision falls entirely on the son.

If either of my boys choose to follow their military careers past the Cadet level, they will have my support, but the ultimate decision is their and theirs alone.

They, as I, haven't chosen to serve for battle, they have chosen to serve their country.

Are you following me here?

 

[Scott Free]

Mentally soft? I beg to differ. Mentally they are broken down and rebuilt to work and live under extreme situations and circumstances. Mentally being able to query, analyse, equate and adapt in real time seconds.

Logical rational thought and emotion are two different things. If you lose your emotional strength you can still maintain your logical faculties. In reality though they do intertwine but emotion isn't very necessary for a good stratagem.

Emotions are for pussies, emotions on the battlefield cause second guessing and are not combat effective. Yes we do have difficulty dealing with things once removed from a regimented and oft volatile environment. But there is help for that.

That was my point. Sure there is help but it won't put you back together again.

Being emotionally strong is not a pussies attribute in the civilian world it is a very necessary attribute for success. Being a good killing machine isn't much of an asset in the civilian world.

 

[thomaska]

It doesn't sound like honoring the young man's wishes are an option in the family.

What if he saves someones life in Afghanistan?

What if makes an honorable impression on Afghanis that furthers good will toward the west?

What if he doesn't go to war at all, but instead leads an good life and has a good career in a noble institution?

What if he doesn't join, loads up his car, goes to some other work or college tomorrow, and gets hit and killed by another driver?

Might as well not even let him out of the house if the real world is so scary to you.

 

[Scott Free]

It doesn't sound like honoring the young man's wishes are an option in the family.

What if he saves someones life in Afghanistan?

What if makes an honorable impression on Afghanis that furthers good will toward the west?

What if he doesn't go to war at all, but instead leads an good life and has a good career in a noble institution?

What if he doesn't join, loads up his car, goes to some other work or college tomorrow, and gets hit and killed by another driver?

Might as well not even let him out of the house if the real world is so scary to you.

There is a big difference between not leaving your house and deliberately turning yourself into an emotional basket case. There is also a big difference between creating your own narrative than following one created for you to address issues that don't actually effect you. There is also a big difference between taking risk and taking unnecessary risk. There is also a big difference between furthering the political elites dreams of imperialism and furthering your own dreams.

It is perfectly reasonable to take the risk inherent in driving to school.

 

[talloola]

Scott, that was a very good answer you gave... I applaud you!

I oppose war on an emotional basis first, as I think all humans are entitled to live in peace and harmony. Also, I come from a totally devastated WW country! It is my own observation that wars are inhuman! I, too have a son! Why would I want him to go to war and risk being blown to bits and pieces? What good is that to him, for me and for Canada as a The time has come when humanity has to stop fighting each other and negotiate in earnest! Rather help the poorer nations instead of taking advantage of them!! Such attitude would eliminate wars.

What you wish is, 'i hope' , what most of us want, what a wonderful and 'normal' world that would be, BUT, as I get older and learn more, and the world changes and becomes
'smaller', I feel those wishes slipping further and further away, and it is being replaced
with a more 'hopeless' feeling. It's not just the u.s., it's many countries of the world.
Their leaders and their religions dictate what happens, and 'cooler' and 'sensible' heads
do not prevail. GREED and self gratitude seem to lead the way, and the medias don't
help anything, as they feed us the worst of the happenings on this earth, and we see and
hear that 24-7, and it seems that the good in the world is being squeezed out, and
there is so much bad that it is overwhelming.

 

[Tonington]

Holy crapsicles Batman...To each their own, does that even mean anything nowadays?

 

[talloola]

There is a big difference between not leaving your house and deliberately turning yourself into an emotional basket case. There is also a big difference between creating your own narrative than following one created for you to address issues that don't actually effect you. There is also a big difference between taking risk and taking unnecessary risk. There is also a big difference between furthering the political elites dreams of imperialism and furthering your own dreams.

It is perfectly reasonable to take the risk inherent in driving to school.

But the point is, after the dust settles, the many conversations which will naturally take
place in the family, exchanging opinions and wishes back and forth, then, it is his decision,
and no one is sending him anywhere, or making him do anything against his will, it is up
to him.
When a young person reaches 'THAT' age, to make such a decision, hopefully, the family has spent
a few years around the dinner table, educating the children, and keeping them up to date as to what is going on in the world and why, and how our country connects to
those situations, so that, if and when he/she makes that decision it is with some knowledge of history and happenings.

 

[thomaska]

There is a big difference between not leaving your house and deliberately turning yourself into an emotional basket case. There is also a big difference between creating your own narrative than following one created for you to address issues that don't actually effect you. There is also a big difference between taking risk and taking unnecessary risk. There is also a big difference between furthering the political elites dreams of imperialism and furthering your own dreams.

It is perfectly reasonable to take the risk inherent in driving to school.

Is it perfectly reasonable to assume that going to Afghanistan is an instant death sentence?

And everyone that goes comes back a basket case?

Take a closer look at the anti-war crowd if you want to see some grade "A" examples of case basketry...

Typical, and perfectly predictable hyperbole from the left.

What can the parent do about it anyways? If the young man is an adult according to Canada, then I guess the parents only recourse is to be unsupportive and whiny, isn't it?

 

[Scott Free]

Is it perfectly reasonable to assume that going to Afghanistan is an instant death sentence?

Not quite but if your Canadian it is a risk.

And everyone that goes comes back a basket case?

Just the training to go makes you one.

Take a closer look at the anti-war crowd if you want to see some grade "A" examples of case basketry...

Typical, and perfectly predictable hyperbole from the left.

I think you have mistaken Canada for a US style democracy. In Canada we are still free to have a liberal bias if we wish, we do not consider it a weakness to care about our fellow man even if they are not Canadian. We have many political parties not just one and some of those are liberal. In a real democracy having a liberal view is perfectly acceptable.

So while you claim a liberal view is hyperbole you yourself are attempting to use Ad Populum (appeal to popular belief) which isn't the popular belief in this country. We are free to feel and care about our fellow man as much as we like without derision or fear - it is even viewed as a quality here!

As for protesters: In a real democracy protesting is not only tolerated but desirable. Naturally they might protest something we don't like but that is where liberty comes into play and so they are free to protest and we are free to ignore them.

What can the parent do about it anyways? If the young man is an adult according to Canada, then I guess the parents only recourse is to be unsupportive and whiny, isn't it?

True enough. If you haven't done a very good job raising your child I expect he wouldn't listen to your view. In countries (like Canada) where children don't watch so much TV but interact with their parents; the parents are actually very influential in the child's life right into adulthood. It is very common here for children and parents to be so close they are like best friends.

It's called family values. They are worth checking into.