The Science of Free Will
- Thread starter s_lone
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Please define your terms and maybe I'll give it a go..
Well most of us humans consider ourselves 'free' in the sense that we have the power to make choices and control our behavior and actions. But it could always be argued that every single one of our actions is explainable by a causal chain of purely material events... We recieve stimuli (photons enter our eyes, our ears are sensible to air vibration etc. ), bio-electrical currents go through our nervous systems and brains... Complex chemical reactions occur throughout the brain network and in the end, our brain reacts but doesn't 'act'. It's all just physics and chemistry... atoms and molecules moving around according to a fixed set of laws of physics.
This ultra-materialist view makes us humans nothing more than very elaborate machines without any form of authentic free will.
It seems to me that if authentic free will is a reality, then this free will must originate from something that can literally overcome the fixity of laws of physics... Authentic free will would have to come from something that is fundamentally immaterial... But how could that be possible...??? We can imagine this kind of concept with our mystical imagination. But how can this be imagined scientifically and rationally? Could the concept of true and authentic free will ever fit in the scientific world view, where everything is supposed to have an explainable cause?
Let me know if I'm not clear enough... What I'm really asking is how free will can be possible at all?
Probably none... Unless the soul of the aborted foetus CHOSE to experience being aborted...
Interesting question s_lone, I've been thinking about it too since I posted something on the same general subject in the aptly named mrgrumpy's thread, "A challenge to our dear Christian friends." My first thought is that better minds than ours have grappled unsuccessfully with this question so I don't think we're likely to solve it. I googled "free will" yesterday and found this, which I've read carefully several times and come away feeling I've missed something. He claims to have answered your question, in effect, but I don't see that he has. He argues, for instance, that I'm making a subtle logical error in thinking that omniscience and free will cannot coexist, but so far his explanation has proven too subtle for me, I don't get it. Mostly what his notes do is set off the little alarm in the back of my head that goes "BS BS BS BS..."
Still working on it...
Still working on it...
Dexter
Interesting reading for breakfast!
I think "bs bs bs" is a little harsh but would invite consideration of the assumption that seems to be being made here that everything in the universe has always been the way it is currently understood as being....
A slight caveat was made with regard to quantum physics..at least one assumes the Copenhagen Argument.... but the potential that all "probablistic realities" ought to be considered in making these kinds of arguments also means that one cannot state conclusion based on an unchanging 'steady-state' concept like the one that suggests that "physics" is and always has been the same everywhere for all time in the "known" universe....
I don't think this fellow (nor you nor I) have the megagigagoogleplex of synthesized data to fairly or rationally offer absolute conclusion....
Pass the jam...
Interesting reading for breakfast!
I think "bs bs bs" is a little harsh but would invite consideration of the assumption that seems to be being made here that everything in the universe has always been the way it is currently understood as being....
A slight caveat was made with regard to quantum physics..at least one assumes the Copenhagen Argument.... but the potential that all "probablistic realities" ought to be considered in making these kinds of arguments also means that one cannot state conclusion based on an unchanging 'steady-state' concept like the one that suggests that "physics" is and always has been the same everywhere for all time in the "known" universe....
I don't think this fellow (nor you nor I) have the megagigagoogleplex of synthesized data to fairly or rationally offer absolute conclusion....
Pass the jam...
I guess that for me, the issue of free will is a moot point.
Will it make my life better or worse knowing for certain that we possess free will? Frankly, it would make my life worse to know concretely if we didn't.
Now, not to sound like an ostrich wanting to stick my head in the sand here, but, when it comes to deciding where to allocate my time and my intellectual pursuits, well, trying to find out if I'm doing so only because something compells me to seems like a bit of a waste (for me personally).
It seems like an issue of trying to prove the unprovable, thus a bit of an exercise in futility.
Will it make my life better or worse knowing for certain that we possess free will? Frankly, it would make my life worse to know concretely if we didn't.
Now, not to sound like an ostrich wanting to stick my head in the sand here, but, when it comes to deciding where to allocate my time and my intellectual pursuits, well, trying to find out if I'm doing so only because something compells me to seems like a bit of a waste (for me personally).
It seems like an issue of trying to prove the unprovable, thus a bit of an exercise in futility.
s-lone made the comment about "reacting" to stimuli, to a point I agree with this. Everything we do is a reaction to outside stimuli, the difference between ourselves and "animals" is the way we react to those stimuli. With "free choice" we have the option of choosing between multiple reactions to any stimuli. The choices we have may not be ones that we like, but we do have the ability to "choose".
Karrie... I can understand your point... On a day-to-day basis, I simply prefer assuming I'm free because I don't see any good out of thinking I'm a predictable robot.
I'm still fascinated by the subject because I believe it has huge implications. For example, in the thread News Flash: God isn't dead, he never existed, I debated with Mr.Grumpy as to whether or not the universe was alive or not... conscious or not... intelligent or not...
What does free will have to do with that?
Well... Mr. Grumpy's point was that if I am to say with conviction that the universe outside of myself is intelligent and capable of willful intent, the onus is on me to find evidence... And I guess he's right...
But my point is that if he considers the universe outside himself to be a lifeless set of mechanical reactions, then he must logically apply the idea to himself, because he is a part of this lifeless universe. If he thinks he has authentic free will, the onus is on him to find evidence for it.
Furthermore, quantum physics seems to open a door to the possibility of free will... But that's perhaps a naive affirmation... I'm a couple minds at this forum would have something to say on this subject...
I too believe we have the capacity to choose... But I'm at a loss tryiing to imagine how it is concretely possible and explainable scientifically.
As much as the "brains" in this forum would like to think otherwise..... man, at this time, is still unable to explain EVERYTHING scientifically. Therefore, we must take SOME things on faith.
Someone who ascribes to the school of thought that free will is an illusion, would point out that in choosing between possibilities, you are merely weighing learned risk/reward between your choices, much like a rat weighs out the choices in a maze. You then come to your conclusion based on highest reward. It's no more 'free' a choice than that of a rat chasing down cheese.
Gerryh
While not one of your brainier folk, I'd offer the observation that simply because we can't explain something doesn't mean that there is necessarily some superntural causation at work.
For a long time the speed of sound was a barrier...then leaving the earths surface to travel to "outer space"...
While you may be absolutely right, some supernatural or extra-phenominal agent may be at work in the universe, like Karrie says....if there's a difference to be made in how I live my life from day to day...do I rely on the predictability of the "known" or do I invest in the "belief" that a supernatural agent is at work.....
While not one of your brainier folk, I'd offer the observation that simply because we can't explain something doesn't mean that there is necessarily some superntural causation at work.
For a long time the speed of sound was a barrier...then leaving the earths surface to travel to "outer space"...
While you may be absolutely right, some supernatural or extra-phenominal agent may be at work in the universe, like Karrie says....if there's a difference to be made in how I live my life from day to day...do I rely on the predictability of the "known" or do I invest in the "belief" that a supernatural agent is at work.....
The choices we make are not nesasarily a learned risk/reward senario. Mankind has the ability of cognitive thinking. Choices made may not be from learned experience but through our ability to think through different senarios our choices will take us and choose one that we are able to "live" with. This is free will, unlike a strict action/reaction.