DND to argue legal obligations regarding detainees

[BitWhys]

ye gawds

I don't care about the legalities. This is a new low.

Defence chief enlists academic who argued legality of Iraq invasion
By BRUCE CHEADLE

OTTAWA (CP) - The Canadian government has hired a controversial international academic to argue that Canada's military has no obligation to accord Afghan detainees Canadian-style legal rights.

Christopher Greenwood, a professor of international law at the London School of Economics, submitted an opinion in mid-August to the Federal Court, which is hearing an application by Amnesty International to halt all prisoner transfers by Canadian soldiers to Afghan authorities.

...

Greenwood's 34-page opinion for Canada's Federal Court, dated Aug. 14, says it was prepared at the request of Gen. Rick Hillier, the chief of defence staff.

...

Since Canada is in Afghanistan under a United Nations mandate, Greenwood argues, this country's international treaty obligations don't apply.

...

Generals gone wild. 8O

 

[CDNBear]

The Canadian government has hired a controversial international academic to argue that Canada's military has no obligation to accord Afghan detainees Canadian-style legal rights.

And they aren't entitled to them...They are entitled to the laws of which their Nation has set as the standard, or International Military Law and nothing more.

This is so logical, why is this so hard for you to grasp bit?

 

[BitWhys]

I understand perfectly well what they're entitled to do.

Its why they'd want to do it that makes my skin crawl.

 

[CDNBear]

I understand perfectly well what they're entitled to do.

Its why they'd want to do it that makes my skin crawl.

Huh?

 

[wallyj]

If this is true and it probably is,one more fraudulent tool that the libs were using to bash the conservatives will be taken away. Many seem to forget that it was a LIBERAL arrangement that put the detainees in a POSSIBLE precarious position. Facts and the truth mean little to liberals or the NDP,what matters is gaining political points,no matter what the cost.

 

[hermanntrude]

Facts and the truth mean little to liberals or the NDP,what matters is gaining political points,no matter what the cost.

let's be realistic. Facts and truth aren't high on the list of any politician.

 

[BitWhys]

If this is true and it probably is,one more fraudulent tool that the libs were using to bash the conservatives will be taken away. Many seem to forget that it was a LIBERAL arrangement that put the detainees in a POSSIBLE precarious position. Facts and the truth mean little to liberals or the NDP,what matters is gaining political points,no matter what the cost.

The Conservatives had plenty of time to improve the arrangements and made it clear early they had no intention of doing so.

 

[FiveParadox]

Re: Revenge Complex

With very few exceptions, the rights and freedoms established in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms apply to everyone, not just Canadian citizens. If we are so willing to treat detainees (none of which have been convicted of any crime, I might add) like garbage, then we should revoke rights and freedoms across the board—they would mean nothing to us in any case.

This seems all-too-indicative of some kind of “revenge complex” on the part of conservative Canadians—but I would hope that Canada is a more responsible nation than that. See ss. 7–10, and s. 12 of the Charter—the word everyone is used. “Everyone has the right...”

 

[elevennevele]

It was General Hillier that wrote the detainee transfer agreement, and he did so as Canada was heading for an election. The government was clearly distracted at the time because of this.

I don't know how the Liberals would have handled the situation regarding detainee abuse, or if they would have revised the policy prior to such issues arising, but what is clear is how the Conservative government handled the affair. Terribly! And what is also glaring is they way they showed an incredible lack of sensitivity to the possible torture of such detainees while trying to obstruct any democratic process or investigation into such allegations.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070502.wdetainee02/BNStory/Afghanistan/home

Hillier pushed flawed detainee plan
Foreign Affairs shunted aside when Canada's top soldier insisted on signing 2005 deal that left no follow-up role for Ottawa

PAUL KORING and BRIAN LAGHI AND CAMPBELL CLARK

From Wednesday's Globe and Mail

May 2, 2007 at 1:00 AM EDT

WASHINGTON AND OTTAWA — The Department of Foreign Affairs was pushed to the sidelines when Canada struck its detainee-transfer deal in Afghanistan, two senior government sources have told The Globe and Mail.

“We were not consulted,” said one, adding that Foreign Affairs was shunted aside by the Department of National Defence and Canada's top soldier, Rick Hillier, when he signed the accord in 2005. The deal has become mired in controversy because it includes no follow-up role for Canada on the fate of detainees in Afghanistan's notoriously brutal prison system.

Another senior foreign-service officer gave a longer explanation: “Hillier went to Kabul thinking of them [the detainees] as ‘scumbags' and made the deal. Hillier wanted to sign it; he insisted on signing it,” he said. “Defence took the file and messed it up.”

And Hillier is no Liberal. Especially with that "decade of darkness" under Liberal rule comment he made. A comment which clearly crosses the line as to abusing the position he holds. A country does not need their military leaders using their rank or position for political advocacy (though I'm sure some Conservatives here will disagree with that and think that it's just dandy for military leaders to appear partisan with their statements).

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

Canada has been fighting for years to uphold human rights worldwide, now this government decides it's not a priority?

Maybe they can hire Alberto Gonzales to come and bend our laws to permit our participation in torture the way he did for Bush in the US.

With every step this government shows just how little they reflect Canadian values, and all to impress the US Neocons who are rapidly self-destructing anyway.

 

[CDNBear]

With very few exceptions, the rights and freedoms established in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms apply to everyone, not just Canadian citizens. If we are so willing to treat detainees (none of which have been convicted of any crime, I might add) like garbage, then we should revoke rights and freedoms across the board—they would mean nothing to us in any case.

It is the CANADIAN Charter by the way...

This seems all-too-indicative of some kind of “revenge complex” on the part of conservative Canadians—but I would hope that Canada is a more responsible nation than that. See ss. 7–10, and s. 12 of the Charter—the word everyone is used. “Everyone has the right...”

Oh give the wet noodle a rest Paradox. Every Canadian not every Tom, Dick and Ahkbar, it's pinko Libby's that have allowed the Charter to be bent and abused to serve as a tool for dismantling and dimembering this nation.

It was General Hillier that wrote the detainee transfer agreement, and he did so as Canada was heading for an election. The government was clearly distracted at the time because of this.

I don't know how the Liberals would have handled the situation regarding detainee abuse, or if they would have revised the policy prior to such issues arising, but what is clear is how the Conservative government handled the affair. Terribly! And what is also glaring is they way they showed an incredible lack of sensitivity to the possible torture of such detainees while trying to obstruct any democratic process or investigation into such allegations.


And Hillier is no Liberal. Especially with that "decade of darkness" under Liberal rule comment he made. A comment which clearly crosses the line as to abusing the position he holds. A country does not need their military leaders using their rank or position for political advocacy (though I'm sure some Conservatives here will disagree with that and think that it's just dandy for military leaders to appear partisan with their statements).

As an ex Army NCO...I think what he did was just fine and dandy, that wasn't partisanship, that was stating a fact, yes I know how you Libbies love abscuring fact with fiction...But you can blow your ridiculous comments out your ass...head or whatever you like( I think you could likely do both at the sametime).

Canada has been fighting for years to uphold human rights worldwide, now this government decides it's not a priority?

Maybe they can hire Alberto Gonzales to come and bend our laws to permit our participation in torture the way he did for Bush in the US.

With every step this government shows just how little they reflect Canadian values, and all to impress the US Neocons who are rapidly self-destructing anyway.

Another knee jerk reactionary...Why don't you get together with bitwhys and paint lil Hitler moustaches on Harpo pictures...

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Look here you Armchair Generals and Monday morning Tactical advisors. 1...There is a far distance between Civilian Law and Military Law...2...We are talking about detainees in a Combat area. Not like in the States where they are possibly holding noncombatants picked up outside combat zones.

Canadian Troops do not just kick in doors and storm off with dear old Dad on a whim. We have a stringent process, we are accountable to our own morals and we do not have to follow orders that are in breach of law...unlawful. Not to mention that the process of Military Law is fundamentaly based on the same Charter. Thus breach of anyones human rights is still an unlawful order and/or a criminal act.

I think all your belly aching and silly fingure pointing is based solely on your political ideology...not the process, nor the actions wished to be taken in the military process of detainees...You're looking to hang the Cons and nothing more.

Grow up.

 

[BitWhys]

I live in a country whose military leaders think they should be able to hand people over for torture and no one in charge is telling them otherwise.

Its disgraceful.

 

[CDNBear]

I live in a country whose military leaders think they should be able to hand people over for torture and no one in charge is telling them otherwise.

Its disgraceful.

Oh yes bit...We should bring them all to Canada and put them on welfare, great thinking...Good grief.

Stop judging the world through yor pampered life. It isn't realistic for one, it's also unhealthy and absurd.

This is war, I know you live your life in comfy safety thanx to guys that do an ugly job, but don't thrust your skewed sense of morality on a situation that has as much civility in it as a bag of snakes.

You live in a country that has legal and moral obligations to uphold its share of an organisation that ostensably protects the very ground you spit upon with your contempt.

If we are operating within the boundries of a Nation that has its own set of rules and laws and we are mandated to turnover detainees to said Nation, then so beit. We should abide by their laws,,,non?

Now if the story were reversed, you'ld likely be crying that we were trying to circumvent Afghani law...

Good grief, how do you live day to day with your political ideology as your only moral-meter?

 

[BitWhys]

I'm not the one defending the use of torture.

 

[CDNBear]

I'm not the one defending the use of torture.

Oh what an enlightend response bit...

I see your views haven't broadend any in my prolonged absence.

Nothing like making false statements to try and shut down the voices of reason and debate.

Your skewed ideology driven agenda/views are legendary my friend. You wouldn't back a Conservative agenda if it would make Canada a stable world leader in democratic process or prosperity.

I'm not defending the use of torture, though I have very few issues with it. It has been proven as often as not to produce valuable intel. When you are facing certain issues in the field you have to go above and sometimes beyond the normal course of reason. I have absolutely no hope of the likes of understanding this. People like you just enjoy the ends, but condemn the means as if it were pure entertainment to you.

Sleep well tonight, we paid for it, so you wouldn't have to.

 

[BitWhys]

...
Sleep well tonight, we paid for it, so you wouldn't have to.

Have fun with the thumb-screws.

 

[CDNBear]

Have fun with the thumb-screws.

This is what it comes to when you have nothing left to your arguement?

You've digressed...How sad.

 

[BitWhys]

This is what it comes to when you have nothing left to your arguement?

You've digressed...How sad.

look

You want to call me ungrateful as if its some sort of rebuttal that's fine, but don't be calling it an argument. It just reveals your mentality. And if gratitude involves condoning torture then as far as I'm concerned you can leave your service on the dung heap where it belongs.

Pathetic thing about this is you're not even defending the service. You're defending the morons that got themselves and their troops in this stupid situation in the first place.

 

[CDNBear]

look

As soon as you put something up to look at...

You want to call me ungrateful as if its some sort of rebuttal that's fine, but don't be calling it an argument. It just reveals your mentality. And if gratitude involves condoning torture then as far as I'm concerned you can leave your service on the dung heap where it belongs.

Hey, I put up an arguement several posts ago, you missed it. Not surprising though, it fell well out side and above your ideology.

Pathetic thing about this is you're not even defending the service. You're defending the morons that got themselves and their troops in this stupid situation in the first place.

No the pathetic thing is, that people like yourself want to put free peaceful world ways of thinking into a combat situation, this does nothing, but show just how littlethought you've given your arguement. The ungrateful part comes from your absurd contempt for those having to abide by the laws of the Nation (in this case a once failed state)they are assisting to regaining control of.

So we shouldn't be there, this I know you believe, but we are there and we should ignore the Laws of the Nation in question? How's your cake taste, but you can't have it too.

You're the same type of person that will bitch, whine and complain if the Rwandan War criminals are sent back to face the death penalty...It's better they stay here on welfare.

Good thinkin'...Lets make Canada a haven for all the world trash.

Your arguement was lost the moment you made it by using your political ideology and not your mind.

 

[BitWhys]

If you really supported the troops you wouldn't be letting Hillier drag them into the mud like this.