The myth of the free market?

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
15
38
and if you prefer to ignore the supply chain, drop the guesswork, and change the wording from "tied up in oligarchies" to "are oligopolies", call it 40%.

Year...Top 4 Companies per NAICS Aggregate Percent of Overall Market
1935...29.54144655
1947...36.73522138
1954...35.75067241
1958...37.12601007
1963...36.34797501
1966...36.82665355
1967...41.89663375
1970...41.82790389
1972...42.15078352
1977...42.22106777
1982...39.79792688
1987...39.78712916
1992...40.11130069
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
15
38
ye gawds I'm making a mess of it. forget all that. I haven't even looked at those numbers for over a year.

Let me back up and try to simplify. that long list of industries and percentages is the CR4 by NAICS where the CR4 is actually greater than 50% (ergo oligopoly). It represents over half a trillion dollars in shipping value.

My point is that the impact of oligopolies (and their keepers) is a far cry more significant that the anomaly the textbooks make them out to be.
 

Toro

Senate Member
May 24, 2005
5,468
109
63
Florida, Hurricane Central
Actually, the textbooks don't say their insignificant, at least not the ones I've read. They just say what they are.

But your point is taken.

Oligopolies are significant.
 

Niflmir

A modern nomad
Dec 18, 2006
3,460
58
48
Leiden, the Netherlands
If you own the land and your house, you have a monopoly on that land and house. It is yours. People cannot come to your land and do whatever they please. They cannot steal your land, just like you cannot steal intellectual property. That is not the absence of a free market. That is the enforcement of property contract law.

What you are arguing is not the absence of a true hypothetical free market. What you are arguing is the collapse of the rule of law and anarchy.

The rule of law is a necessary ingredient for me to argue against the existence of a free market, I am certainly not arguing against it. Let me try to make it even easier.

Condition A: The supply in the market is not controlled by the government or investors.
Condition B: The market is a free market.
Condition C: Our laws limit the supply in the market.

Then the logic is this:

If B then A. C, therefore not A and consequently not B.

The argument is a valid one. The only way that this argument could be construed as arguing against our laws is if there was an immovable truth: Condition D. The free market is the ideal, over and above any other human endeavor. I think condition D is absurd.

Now condition C is somewhat complicated. But basically this is what I am arguing:
1) Intellectual property laws limit the number of suppliers in order to ensure fairness for investors.
2) In a market, where entry is prohibited a Nash equilibrium will be reached after sufficient cycles and the market price will be the profit optimal one (not the intersection of supply and demand).
3) By definition, the profit optimal price is obtainable only by controlling the supply.
4) From 2 and 3, a market where entry is prohibited is a market where the supply is controlled.
5) 1 and 4 imply that the laws produce a market where the supply is controlled by investors.

In words, my conclusion is this: free markets don't exist because supply is always controlled by investors. Now, which letter or number do you have a problem with?
 

Toro

Senate Member
May 24, 2005
5,468
109
63
Florida, Hurricane Central
The rule of law is a necessary ingredient for me to argue against the existence of a free market, I am certainly not arguing against it.

N (I hope you don't mind me calling you N because I can never spell your handle. Plus, I'm lazy.)

You appear to not have addressed the issue of what to do with the guy destroying your house. You are differentiating between tangible real property and intangible intellectual property. You are saying that it is okay for the government to protect your tangible property as a condition for a free market but when it protects your intangible property, that is a violation of free markets. Why the difference? If a condition of a free market is to take your music and do whatever one pleases with it, why not your house? Am I not reading this correctly? If so, how?

Let me try to make it even easier.

Condition A: The supply in the market is not controlled by the government or investors.
Condition B: The market is a free market.
Condition C: Our laws limit the supply in the market.

Then the logic is this:

If B then A. C, therefore not A and consequently not B.

The argument is a valid one. The only way that this argument could be construed as arguing against our laws is if there was an immovable truth: Condition D. The free market is the ideal, over and above any other human endeavor. I think condition D is absurd.

Now condition C is somewhat complicated. But basically this is what I am arguing:
1) Intellectual property laws limit the number of suppliers in order to ensure fairness for investors.
2) In a market, where entry is prohibited a Nash equilibrium will be reached after sufficient cycles and the market price will be the profit optimal one (not the intersection of supply and demand).
3) By definition, the profit optimal price is obtainable only by controlling the supply.
4) From 2 and 3, a market where entry is prohibited is a market where the supply is controlled.
5) 1 and 4 imply that the laws produce a market where the supply is controlled by investors.

In words, my conclusion is this: free markets don't exist because supply is always controlled by investors. Now, which letter or number do you have a problem with?
Arthur Laffer would be proud!

You assume a priori that all supply is controlled by investors. That is simply not the case. Think about the market for lettuce. You can dig up your property and plant all the lettuce you wish. Then, you can sell it to whomever wishes to buy. There is no patent. There is no intellectual property. There is merely a good to be bought and sold.

A "computer" is not patented. Certainly, there is intellectual property within your computer, but you can start a company at any time assembling and selling computers. If you have a revolutionary concept, as Michael Dell did, then you can sell all the computers you wish. No patent. No intellectual property. No control of supply.

This is your original statement.

There are no free markets in Canada.

It is simply incorrect that there are no free markets in Canada. Take a look around your house. Perhaps you have something you would like to sell that I would find of interest. If you sell it to me over the Internet, that is a free exchange. That is a free market. There is no government control. There is no investor control.

On your point about patents, though your point about game theory is interesting, and is valid in some cases, it does not apply to all markets. It does for some markets but it does not for all. The patented product, as I stated in my original point, can be one of many choices for consumers.

Thus, to say that there are no free markets in Canada is false.

In reality, economies are a mixture of free and controlled markets.
 

gc

Electoral Member
May 9, 2006
931
20
18
The very aim of patent and copyright law is to give corporations monopolies so that they can exploit control over their product to maximize their profit for a period of time and gain a fair return on their investment.

If there were no patents, corporations would have no incentive to invent. Would you rather have the choice of buying a product or not, or would you rather that it's simply unavailable because it was never invented?
 

gc

Electoral Member
May 9, 2006
931
20
18
great thread.....
I can tell you for sure generic drugs are NEVER as good as the originals.
2 companies in Canada Apo and Novo make generic drugs.
I've had this discussion with pharmacists a thousand times and they stand by the claim that the drug is the same whoever makes it.

Naaah, a chemical is a chemical, doesn't matter who makes it. There are strict regulations on the purity of the product, so pure acetominophen (for example) is identical to pure acetominophen, regardless of who made it.

On a related note, this is why I find it strange that people will spend more money to buy water that comes from certain areas of the world. H2O is H2O no matter where it comes from. It's identical.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
15
38
Actually, the textbooks don't say their insignificant, at least not the ones I've read. They just say what they are...

heh

Been a while since I've cracked an intro text but from what I've seen in a theoretical microeconomic postscript to the extinction of monopolies sort of way, indeed they do. The best treatment of the macroeconomic reality I've read so far is JKG's "The New Industrial State".

I'm on a history kick these days, but I'm open to suggestions.
 

Niflmir

A modern nomad
Dec 18, 2006
3,460
58
48
Leiden, the Netherlands
N (I hope you don't mind me calling you N because I can never spell your handle. Plus, I'm lazy.)

You appear to not have addressed the issue of what to do with the guy destroying your house. You are differentiating between tangible real property and intangible intellectual property. You are saying that it is okay for the government to protect your tangible property as a condition for a free market but when it protects your intangible property, that is a violation of free markets. Why the difference? If a condition of a free market is to take your music and do whatever one pleases with it, why not your house? Am I not reading this correctly? If so, how?

Ok, so I am ignoring the case of the house because it is irrelevant. What will it take for you to stop this red herring? If I say I agree with intellectual property laws will you stop trying to figure out my stance on it? If I say that I disagree with them, but that it doesn't matter? How about if I just point out that any view on intellectual property laws don't matter, that they simply exist? This is simply not what I am trying to discuss. Property laws exist. Someone cannot destroy my house really or figuratively.

I don't assume anything a priori, I have clearly stated all my premises. The thing that you think I assume is clearly outlined in statement number 2. To understand lettuce you have to go back to my opening statement, where it would fall into the category of goods receiving subsidies. So yes, there is no market barrier, but I would find that the for the price I receive, the time I spent growing the lettuce would be wasted. There is cheaper lettuce out there, probably less insect bitten than mine.

If you think I am assuming something without clearly stating it, that is assuming something a priori tell me what it is and which condition a-c or 1-5 fails because of it. If you don't think that subsidies count let me know. But please drop the line of intellectual property laws, as I said above someone cannot destroy my house figuratively and that is a premise, not something I seek to argue against.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
15
38
Intellectual property laws serve as protection from the open market. Plain and simple. The ethics of that reality is an entirely different matter.
 

Niflmir

A modern nomad
Dec 18, 2006
3,460
58
48
Leiden, the Netherlands
If there were no patents, corporations would have no incentive to invent. Would you rather have the choice of buying a product or not, or would you rather that it's simply unavailable because it was never invented?

Yes, they would have no incentive, and that is why we give them temporary monopolies. It is irrelevant what I would rather have, reality is what it is and that is what I am arguing from. This is not armchair philosophy where I argue for a utopia. All I am arguing is that people should stop calling our market a free one. I am accusing the economists of contradicting the real world by idealizing the free market.
 

Niflmir

A modern nomad
Dec 18, 2006
3,460
58
48
Leiden, the Netherlands
Intellectual property laws serve as protection against the open market. Plain and simple. The ethics of that reality is an entirely different matter.

Exactly, and they do that be creating temporary monopolies. The reason of course being incentive, but the reason is irrelevant here and I can't seem to stress that enough. All that is necessary for the sake of argument is the fact that they do protect corporations from the open market
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
15
38
Exactly, and they do that be creating temporary monopolies. The reason of course being incentive, but the reason is irrelevant here and I can't seem to stress that enough. All that is necessary for the sake of argument is the fact that they do protect corporations from the open market

hush, now. No need to confuse the freshmen. ;-)
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
4,600
100
63
The statement you don't get, isn't that people disagree with

"Intellectual property laws serve as protection from the open market."

Its that you are forgetting that sentance is needleslly complicated.

"property laws serve as protection from the open market."

That is Toro is saying. If you got rid of IP laws, but left all other propery laws it still wouldn't be your definition of a free market.

Example, currently you contest that with the current IP laws on the name Tylenol you cannot make any to fill the demands as you see fit (1, yes you can, just buy the name Tylenol, Free market doesnt' mean your business doesn't have costs and everything is free).

If you got rid of the IP laws, the same types of situations would apply. If I wanted to make Medication and didn't know the forumlae and process to make it, I couldn't unless I got a hold of the recipe and/or directions. So unless I again, buy the directions (same as buying the name Tylenol) I have to be allowed to walk into his place of business and take his recipe by busting open his safe.

Intellectual property is still property. Selling someones IP is about as essential to free market principles as being allowed to walk onto their propery and pick up their merchandise and sell it. After all, if you want to sell a Violin made by Lugio Armocci in a free market, property rights get in the way, you can only do it if you steal his violin's and sell them yourself. Otherwise no matter what, he didn't make them.

That is the absurdity of your statement.
 

Niflmir

A modern nomad
Dec 18, 2006
3,460
58
48
Leiden, the Netherlands
The statement you don't get, isn't that people disagree with

"Intellectual property laws serve as protection from the open market."

Its that you are forgetting that sentance is needleslly complicated.

"property laws serve as protection from the open market."

That is Toro is saying. If you got rid of IP laws, but left all other propery laws it still wouldn't be your definition of a free market.

Not my definition, the economical definition, look it up.

Example, currently you contest that with the current IP laws on the name Tylenol you cannot make any to fill the demands as you see fit (1, yes you can, just buy the name Tylenol, Free market doesnt' mean your business doesn't have costs and everything is free).

Granted, but a free market is not one where potential suppliers are barred from entry. More on brand names in a bit.

If you got rid of the IP laws, the same types of situations would apply. If I wanted to make Medication and didn't know the forumlae and process to make it, I couldn't unless I got a hold of the recipe and/or directions. So unless I again, buy the directions (same as buying the name Tylenol) I have to be allowed to walk into his place of business and take his recipe by busting open his safe.

It is a necessity to have free information in a free market. It is one of the very first tenets that economists will talk about. It is a given that if there is no freedom of information there is no free market.

Intellectual property is still property. Selling someones IP is about as essential to free market principles as being allowed to walk onto their propery and pick up their merchandise and sell it. After all, if you want to sell a Violin made by Lugio Armocci in a free market, property rights get in the way, you can only do it if you steal his violin's and sell them yourself. Otherwise no matter what, he didn't make them.

Branding is another issue in its entirety, you aren't really talking about intellectual property here. So let us say that I can make a violin which is just as good in quality as Lugio Armocci, his violins will still sell for more because of his name. I cannot sell his name, and that is what people are paying for. This distinguishment makes our two products completely different markets.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
15
38
...Not my definition, the economical definition, look it up...

that reminds me. I should have said "free", not "open".

although I prefer the use of the phrase "self-regulating market" since it more closely reflects the intent of the discipline's Englightenment originators, such as they were.
 

Niflmir

A modern nomad
Dec 18, 2006
3,460
58
48
Leiden, the Netherlands
that reminds me. I should have said "free", not "open".

although I prefer the use of the phrase "self-regulating market" since it more closely reflects the intent of the discipline's Englightenment originators, such as they were.

They started from the bottom up, defining what the market should be before they went out and looked at real markets. In the end they ended up with a crappy ideal. Even the idea of the invisible hand is terrible.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
15
38
baa baa black sheep

and I think Smith was probably being sarcastic so cut the old boy some slack.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
4,600
100
63
Granted, but a free market is not one where potential suppliers are barred from entry. More on brand names in a bit.
You are not barred from entry, if you want to make and sell tylenol you can, buy the materials needed for it, one of those is the trademark. Its for sale and just as essential for making tylenol as all the chemical ingredients.

It is a necessity to have free information in a free market. It is one of the very first tenets that economists will talk about. It is a given that if there is no freedom of information there is no free market.
Information however does not exist in a vacuum. It is property, if for no other reason than it is written on his physical property. If you got rid of explicit IP laws, you would still have to destroy property laws to the point you can tell someone else what to do with their legal property (ie, force him to open HIS safe on HIS land and show you HIS notebook all because you said so). So ALL property rights, intellectual or not lead to the death of a free market. That is by your interpretation. A free market cannot exist with any property laws by your interpretation of the definition (which is what is meant by your definition, im well aware its the official one, your interpretation is not however).


Branding is another issue in its entirety, you aren't really talking about intellectual property here. So let us say that I can make a violin which is just as good in quality as Lugio Armocci, his violins will still sell for more because of his name. I cannot sell his name, and that is what people are paying for. This distinguishment makes our two products completely different markets.

Trademarks are intellectual property. They are one specified by you specificially as being incompatible with the free market.