Is Our Aboriginals On The Warpath?

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
You mean pretending to be a liberal.

The liberal web site www.democraticunderground.com did an expose' of right wingers posing as libs on web forums in order to discredit libs. This character is undoubtedly another one of those paid posters.
Good point. We already know West enjoyed causing a ruckus by claiming any number of controversial and contradictory points of view. Why not the same agenda here!
 

folcar

Electoral Member
Mar 26, 2007
158
5
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According to David Peterson the reason things have degraded so badly with native affairs is the levels of beaurocracy that have been getting rich off stalling the talks, natives are undoubtedly frustrating as in many cases they have legitimate beefs over broken treaties. The issue has many aspects to be considered, such as non-native people living on the land in dispute, infrastructure on the land, what sort of compensation is required, and what historical information is available to verify either sides case.

The situation should be handled by the facts only and then once ownership is decided then what to do about all of the above situations can be ironed out. In terms of the occupations and other criminal type activities. Native protestors who do so weeken there overall cause, by bringing a negative publicity to it. However it is the publicity that they are after so any might be considered good.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
119
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That topic title is starting to get to me....should it be repaired?
 

snfu73

disturber of the peace
According to David Peterson the reason things have degraded so badly with native affairs is the levels of beaurocracy that have been getting rich off stalling the talks, natives are undoubtedly frustrating as in many cases they have legitimate beefs over broken treaties. The issue has many aspects to be considered, such as non-native people living on the land in dispute, infrastructure on the land, what sort of compensation is required, and what historical information is available to verify either sides case.

The situation should be handled by the facts only and then once ownership is decided then what to do about all of the above situations can be ironed out. In terms of the occupations and other criminal type activities. Native protestors who do so weeken there overall cause, by bringing a negative publicity to it. However it is the publicity that they are after so any might be considered good.
I don't think they are looking for approval or sympathy...I think they are looking for their land back...they are looking to reclaim what is rightfully theirs...and they have been pushed to the point where this appears to be their last resort, and I don't blame them one bit. The fact that the ontario government has allowed development to begin on contested lands shows a troubling lack of understanding and respect. In many ways, what else can these folks do? You said it yourself...the buearacracy (sp) is making is difficult to make any headway. Governments continue to screw them around. What...we all expect them to just go away and not say anything about it? Not likely. Would any of us do any differently in the same situation? I doubt it. Nope, I disagree...they are doing pretty much the only thing they CAN do at this time...everything else seems to have failed for them.
 

folcar

Electoral Member
Mar 26, 2007
158
5
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I don't think they are looking for approval or sympathy

I agree they are not looking for sympathy or approval, but creating situations that are nothing but confrontational creates a situation where compromise and understanding are less likely. Most people who feel threatened tend to not want to talk reasonably with the people who are threatening.

The problem is alot of land was sold and alot more was ursurped by governments and another eras corrupt beaurocrats, is it solveable? YES? There are so many factors at play today though that nothing is going to be easy, the two main things accomplished by the tactics being employed by the native protestors is to create publicity and to put them at odds with the local people they are negatively impacting. The argument that people are doing something wrong by living on land they had no idea was stolen doesn't fly. Keeping in mind all this was done generations ago, and the lack of resolution that has let this situation fester to where we are today lies squarely on governments shoulders. However as we have seen in Caledonia even the natives are divided, many do not support the negative impact the occupations and public disruptions are having on there cause. Also a great deal of natives are now mixed native and European decent, this is also a factor for native families as it can create divisions in there households. My point is human nature ussually dictates that confrontation is ussaually met with more confrontation, the oucome of which is never good.

I have debated this very subject a great deal, and feel the only resolution to it is a select group of chosen negotiators from both sides per claim, with a firm legal unwavering agreement before hand from all parties that all decisions made by the group are binding and final. Those chosen to represent should be amongst the most respected people from both sides. All decisions should then be based on facts and honest compromise in terms of what the government/ Public needs are and those of the natives. This would eliminate the beurocracy and greed based stalling on the government side and the large number of native chiefs and representatives that have been posturing for positions at the negotiating table and slowing down talks from there end.
 

snfu73

disturber of the peace
I don't think they are looking for approval or sympathy

I agree they are not looking for sympathy or approval, but creating situations that are nothing but confrontational creates a situation where compromise and understanding are less likely. Most people who feel threatened tend to not want to talk reasonably with the people who are threatening.

The problem is alot of land was sold and alot more was ursurped by governments and another eras corrupt beaurocrats, is it solveable? YES? There are so many factors at play today though that nothing is going to be easy, the two main things accomplished by the tactics being employed by the native protestors is to create publicity and to put them at odds with the local people they are negatively impacting. The argument that people are doing something wrong by living on land they had no idea was stolen doesn't fly. Keeping in mind all this was done generations ago, and the lack of resolution that has let this situation fester to where we are today lies squarely on governments shoulders. However as we have seen in Caledonia even the natives are divided, many do not support the negative impact the occupations and public disruptions are having on there cause. Also a great deal of natives are now mixed native and European decent, this is also a factor for native families as it can create divisions in there households. My point is human nature ussually dictates that confrontation is ussaually met with more confrontation, the oucome of which is never good.

I have debated this very subject a great deal, and feel the only resolution to it is a select group of chosen negotiators from both sides per claim, with a firm legal unwavering agreement before hand from all parties that all decisions made by the group are binding and final. Those chosen to represent should be amongst the most respected people from both sides. All decisions should then be based on facts and honest compromise in terms of what the government/ Public needs are and those of the natives. This would eliminate the beurocracy and greed based stalling on the government side and the large number of native chiefs and representatives that have been posturing for positions at the negotiating table and slowing down talks from there end.
I disagree. I think that the negotiations have been going on for so long now, and the government of ontario has pulled so low ball tricks by allowing development to happen on the land in question. In the end, if and when the issue FINALLY gets to the courts and is heard, the land will be gone anyway...there won't be much that can be done. So, in a sense, dealing in bad faith by the government has created a crisis situation for these folks, and what else can they do? This land has been in contention for decades, and the natives who claim the land have been waiting for years and years just to have their case heard...meanwhile, developers start building on the land with permission of the government. Time has run out...and they haven't even had a chance to have their voice heard. What is left? The only thing left is to protest...is to do what they are doing and I support them one hundred and ten percent...and again, I state, if this happened to anyone else in this country...if land that someone of european ancestory was in contention and this exact same situation happened, you don't think that the same path wouldn't be taken? It is very unfortunate, but the government has, in this case and many others, screwed around for too long and left these folks hanging...their chance for real negotiation has been blown by stupid, arrogant decision making and beaurocracy. Now, these folks are backed into a corner...they HAVE to do something NOW...or the land is gone.
 

iARTthere4iam

Electoral Member
Jul 23, 2006
533
3
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Pointy Rocks
There is a limit to what even a rich country like Canada can afford. With constant demand for more money for our expensive health care and increasing clamour to implement the vastly expensive kyoto commitments does anyone have a good plan to solve all the native land claims and the 20-30 billion dollars it will take? I don't. I'm sure the majority of Canadians would like to see the native communities thrive. I find it hard to believe that land claim difficulties are keeping natives down. Waves of immigrants have come to Canada with nothing and have worked hard and enjoy the freedoms and prosperity of this country. Why are native communities less well off? They have the same freedoms and rights as other Canadians plus many other added benefits of their native status- tax breaks, free school, special loan and grant opportunities, hunting and fishing rights etc..
 

folcar

Electoral Member
Mar 26, 2007
158
5
18
snfu73, actually after reading your post i think we are more in agreement with one another than in disagreement. I don't like scare tactics and confrontation because it ussually brings the possibility of violence and escalation, but the governments record of negotiation is simply horrid!!!! That is why i suggest any negotiators that take part be respected individuals who have earned that respect of all represented parties. And they be given a clear mandate of facts only, with all decisions final. Many of the claims are well documented and although the terms seem silly by today's standards. They are cut and dry, with time lines and agreed upon exchanges for use of the land. The time we are seeing wasted on the issue is as David Peterson claims quite deliberate and a direct result of innefiecient over paid beaurocrats getting rich of the havoc they are creating. The simplest solution is to return land that has been taken against the treaties signed by Native Nations and the Governing body of the time, buy out the home owners who are on the land. And if public infrastructure is on the land it is lost, as it should never have been built there in the first place. But the problem is that in some areas entire cities reside on the land in question, i know i live in one. So when talking 90 000 people in one city alone that is on the land in question, the seriousness and scope of the issue changes dramatically. I don't believe that time has run out, rather the kettle has reached a boil due to the constant stalling and underhanded politics by the government. There are many ways to fix the overall issue one and my favourite is to adopt the native system of land ownership, which is they don't own the land they tend it. I lean towards this philosophy because the land was here before any of us, we can tend it, shape it, use it, and it will be here long after we have become a part of it. Owning it is an idea that isn't well thought out.
 

iARTthere4iam

Electoral Member
Jul 23, 2006
533
3
18
Pointy Rocks
The simplest solution is to return land that has been taken against the treaties signed by Native Nations and the Governing body of the time, buy out the home owners who are on the land. And if public infrastructure is on the land it is lost, as it should never have been built there in the first place. But the problem is that in some areas entire cities reside on the land in question, i know i live in one. So when talking 90 000 people in one city alone that is on the land in question, the seriousness and scope of the issue changes dramatically.

There are many ways to fix the overall issue one and my favourite is to adopt the native system of land ownership, which is they don't own the land they tend it. I lean towards this philosophy because the land was here before any of us, we can tend it, shape it, use it, and it will be here long after we have become a part of it. Owning it is an idea that isn't well thought out.

You have hit upon the scary part very nicely. Tens of thousands of Canadians would lose their land. Land owners are the ones who tend the land. You clearly are not a home owner or you would see that the land you own is the land that you manage and that land owners are the ones with the most to lose or gain by the land's management. In the cases that you point out where entire cities are within land claimed by natives how do you suppose the situation would work out? citizens leave and native bands inherit entire city infrastructures? What sense is there in that.

Continuing to treat natives as a collective will always lead to native cultural stagnation and poverty. Until we treat individual natives as individuals and allow them to decide their fate as individuals they as a collective will remain in their sad state. Their innability to own land on reserves and funding that goes to bands rather than individuals are blocking their success.
 

folcar

Electoral Member
Mar 26, 2007
158
5
18
You clearly are not a home owner or you would see that the land you own is the land that you manage

Actually i am on my 3rd property currently and i do a great deal of maintenance to both the house and land. Just planted 7 trees on Earth day actually, and i take great pride in maintaining my home and yard. The existing system of land ownership is based upon the monetary system, where land has a dollar value based upon demand in a given area. The system rises and falls as different factors determine the value of the properties, why i do not favour this system is because it tends to support homelessness by putting a price tag that not everybody can pay. And by the after effect of leaving a person without a home and no money to buy one in limbo. We offer nice soup kitchens, and shelters but none of it gets a person off the streets.

Continuing to treat natives as a collective will always lead to native cultural stagnation and poverty. Until we treat individual natives as individuals and allow them to decide their fate as individuals they as a collective will remain in their sad state. Their innability to own land on reserves and funding that goes to bands rather than individuals are blocking their success.

Actually many reserves and native bands have adapted nicely to modern culture, and have become quite successful within Canada. Many have also found themselves floundering between the old ways and the modern world, and have become trapped in a cycle of poverty. It seems to be dependant on weather or not people are willing to take on the challenges to become a success, as have many individual natives risen out of poverty to be a success in there own right. But those stories tend to be forgotten as they don't make for entertaining TV or news stories.

citizens leave and native bands inherit entire city infrastructures? What sense is there in that.

Actually i was refering to the complexity of the issue and that obviously such an event would not happen, locally the city cooperates with the native band as they fully realize that the city lies in a treaty zone. And the land itself was under a lease agreement as i understand it, many areas locally were also sold so in the past by the band. So what was sold and what was leased is somewhat of a question mark, this needs to be concretely determined as well as what to do with the areas that are under lease. The most likely end result will be the lease will be renewed or a buy out will be arranged, but the very fact that such situations exist calls for a more reasonable and calmer solution than confrontational tactics.
 

John Welch

New Member
Apr 27, 2007
29
0
1
The infrastucture of city transport systems is definitely Indian property which proves they did not sabotage the Toronto rail track:
Rail Australia - Trains - The Indian Pacific[SIZE=-1]The Indian Pacific is the last remaining trans-continental train journey. This amazing train traverses Australia from cost to coast, between the sparkling ...
www.railaustralia.com.au/indian_pacific.htm - 8k - Cached - Similar pages[/SIZE]
(anonymous).
 

RomSpaceKnight

Council Member
Oct 30, 2006
1,384
23
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London, Ont. Canada
Are the Indians responsible for this Train derailment that happened on the Toronto-Montreal corridor today.

It seems that there has been a lot of train derailments lately and we do have a threat that the Mohawks warriors are ready to disrupt rail service.

They would not be sneaky about it. They would tell the press and whoever else cared to come make a publicity thing out of it. Wanton disregard for human life is not a part of the native radical movement. Disruption of service maybe but not without warning.

You still have some nasty anti-native thoughts even with the new name.
 

iARTthere4iam

Electoral Member
Jul 23, 2006
533
3
18
Pointy Rocks
The existing system of land ownership is based upon the monetary system, where land has a dollar value based upon demand in a given area. The system rises and falls as different factors determine the value of the properties, why i do not favour this system is because it tends to support homelessness by putting a price tag that not everybody can pay.

Of course this is getting off topic for this thread, but I just have to say, it would be completely impossible if it weren't so with land ownership. How could a given piece of real estate support everybody who wanted to be there. Space is limited. I couldn't afford a piece of space in downtown Vancouver that would suit my needs and my wants so I live elsewhere. I choose to live in a place that I can afford on land large enough for my needs and wants. If I chose to live in a city that was too expensive and I had to live on the streets I would have to say it was my own damn fault.


I personally don't think that the land claim situation is likely to ever be resolved. There are far more land claims comming in than are being resolved. The process is too slow and expensive. The only solution that will allow this to be behind us, IMHO, is a comprehensive settlement covering all native land claims. Rip the band-aid off all at once spend 20 billion and get it over. Otherwise our great grandchildren will still be dealing with it.
 

temperance

Electoral Member
Sep 27, 2006
622
16
18

"our aboriginals"...we own them? They are ours...get away from them. And you wonder why some folks within the native community might want to rebel against folks like you...with lousy attitudes towards them like yours....with your sucky grammar (sorry, had to through in that last part).



Our --lol

So As a Native of Canada I could say "Our white folks" need to fix the rails --The rail system has been crumbimg for some time and using trains not bulid for mountians in B.C with proper brakes may be one cause --
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe...9/wfive_derailments_070209/20070210?hub=WFive
 

temperance

Electoral Member
Sep 27, 2006
622
16
18
And at the very least ,Native Canadians are standing up for themselves ,unlike some of us that have tried in vain to write letter protest quietly ,all to no avail --

Our Counrty islosing its self I here daily how" NORTH America " is doing this or that

Im in Canada I dont want my goverment to follow a U.S plan --
 

folcar

Electoral Member
Mar 26, 2007
158
5
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And at the very least ,Native Canadians are standing up for themselves ,unlike some of us that have tried in vain to write letter protest quietly ,all to no avail --

I agree, the fact that the government is so out of tune with the population shows the need for protest and change.