Immigration: The great deception

[snfu73]

I don't believe that integration is forcing people to be something they are not. I believe integration is people working and socializing together. Why come to another country to segregate yourself?

I think you will find that more people "intergrate" than you might realize. I taught english as a second language to new comers to edmonton, and MAN, those people were dedicated to learning the language, so excited about the culture, and so proud to be part of Canada.

But, what I am talking about is forcing people to intergrate. It's one thing to intergrate, forced intergration is another thing. But, just as plenty of white folks like to hole themselves up in suburbs and little fancy gated communities and try to keep ethnic folks out, it only makes sense that people from various countries and cultures would congregate.

And...part of intergration...is acceptance. If you aren't going to accept people until they turn white, speak english perfectly and abondon anything to do with their culture, guess what, they aren't going to be too eager to intergrate (I think I keep spelling intergrate wrong...dang!). So, it's a two way street.

 

[Zzarchov]

no reason it should, but there's an awful lot of people who will want to come here and to stop them is selfish, maybe? I'm not sure

It would be quite selfish on our part.
Of course im also the first to admit to emigrating for a better life is quite selfish. It means rather than make the world around you better you just pack up and flee to wherever the grass is greener at the moment.

 

[hermanntrude]

absolutely. So you can hardly blame people for coming here, and you can hardly complain when they do. Everyone deserves a chance at a good life, and if they feel they're more likely to get one in another place, why shouldn't they go there?

Of course it's only polite to bring something useful with you, like skills, money, knowledge, that kind of thing....

 

[s243a]

I think you will find that more people "intergrate" than you might realize. I taught english as a second language to new comers to edmonton, and MAN, those people were dedicated to learning the language, so excited about the culture, and so proud to be part of Canada.

But, what I am talking about is forcing people to intergrate. It's one thing to intergrate, forced intergration is another thing. But, just as plenty of white folks like to hole themselves up in suburbs and little fancy gated communities and try to keep ethnic folks out, it only makes sense that people from various countries and cultures would congregate.

And...part of intergration...is acceptance. If you aren't going to accept people until they turn white, speak english perfectly and abondon anything to do with their culture, guess what, they aren't going to be too eager to intergrate (I think I keep spelling intergrate wrong...dang!). So, it's a two way street.

Well, clearly some peoples ideas of integration may go to far but if a certain segment of immigrants has trouble integrating we must ask what is the problem at what should we do.

 

[snfu73]

Well, clearly some peoples ideas of integration may go to far but if a certain segment of immigrants has trouble integrating we must ask what is the problem at what should we do.

I think I offered the answer...create an atmosphere in which people would like to integrate in.

Not everyone who comes to Canada is going to be able to integrate...or be willing to let go. Some people don't come to Canada because they necessarily want to come to Canada, some come because if they don't, they will most likely be killed in their home country. They love their culture, they love their home...but they cannot go back. But, really, I believe that most who come to Canada really do try, in one way or another, to belong. But at the same time, I think it is a difficult balancing act...attempting to preserve ones own roots, while adapting to a new society...that is a challenge. I'm concerned because I will soon be moving to Turkey. How will I make out? I do not know the language. I do not have a grasp of the culture. I will be an outsider in a foreign land. No matter how hard I try, I have a suspicion that people will STILL look at me as an outsider and be saying much what you folks are saying...that I am not integrating. Well...it takes time...it takes support...it takes money sometimes...education doesn't come cheap! So, I hope that people have patience with me, and at least try to understand. And, even though I am moving there, I still see myself as a Canadian...which I don't see anything wrong with. I am not about to abandon who I am...who I have been. But, I wish to combine who I have been with who I will be while I am there...combine what I already know with what I hope to know in the future...in the strange, new, exotic land that I will be finding myself in.

I think as well, alot of people assume alot of things. I think of some who I have met that have come from war torn countries...and it has scarred them. It has spawned mental illness, paranoia, fear, difficulties adapting socially. The next time you see someone and you say "Hey, they aren't integrating the way I want them to!", consider what their past may have been, and the challenges they may face in coming into a new society...after a horror filled passed.

And the last point I will make is this. A friend of my wife and I's...mine..whatever...she is from pakistan. She is a wonderful person. When she first moved to Edmonton, she knew little english. She had only been here a few weeks when she was at a bus stop and a young man started being a real dick to her because she did not speak english and was wearing a headscarf. He didn't even bother to find out anything...he just assumed...or was a racist...or whatever. She has learned english, and speaks it well, she is proud to be part of Canada, she tries to take in as many events as possible to feel as though she belongs. She was so happy to be invited to our wedding because it would be the first time she would be part of a Canadian wedding...and that was very exciting to her. If she was given a chance by the first dick, she would have proven that she is a wonderful, openminded person who has tried very hard to fit in...but...he didn't. How many others in here are doing the same thing to people they see on the streets...or their neighbours...or whomever?

 

[Pangloss]

I take issue with the highlighted statement, as it applied to the US. Since I live in the one of 3 heavy immigrant states and have seen and dealt with this myself for a very long time, I can assure you that:

Immigrants ten to be younger (girls marry at 14), much less educated if they even speak English, work harder at piddly-ass jobs for less money, proportionally have a higher crime rate, and they do have more babies that are LESS like to finish high school. PERIOD.

Honey, it's quality not quantity. More sows' ears or more silk purses?:roll:

Uncle

Dude:

Preface: I care very little about the U.S. immigration experience: it was not what I was writing about. As this is the "Canadian Content Community," I was speaking to the facts on the ground as they pertain to Canada.

Your experience means nothing as compared to actual hard facts compiled by Census Canada. The lesbian who lives next door to me is left handed: should I then conclude that all lesbians are left handed?

Arguing world views based upon your own experience and your own experience alone is narcissistic. Therefore prone to failure.

So unless you are a demographer who can show me the flaws in StatsCan's methodology, I doubt very much that you ". . .can assure me that. . ." anything at all. I choose to have more faith in the reports put out by the Pacific Coast Group For Policy Alternatives, The Fraser Institute, and the Carnegie Foundation: a leftie, a rightie, and a centrist, respectively.

You do indeed have the right to your own opinions, but alas, not your own facts.

Pangloss

 

[Sparrow]

When someone immigrated to another country they need to understand that what was their norm at home their new country is different. Everyone has a right to practice their beliefs in the privacy of their own homes. But in their everyday life here they must conform to the ways of their new country. The majority do but we never of them, the only ones we read and hear about are those who resist integration. If we moved to their countries we sure as h*** have to integrate of suffer the consequences.
Immigration sure be closely scrutinized. It is not the quantity that counts but the quality.

 

[tracy]

care to check your facts and firgures Tracy?.

No North or South American country has the right to slate Britain for it's foreign policies...let alone the US....or maybe we sould ask a native american, because you sure as hell didnt say "oh, Hello, were' colonising your land, you wouldnt mind awfully if you move would you?" - how do North Americans sleep at night slateing the British for this?

"We HATE colonialism" ha dont make me laugh, Colonialism is ALL NORTH America is about....period and it is hypocrytical to cast Britain in a bad light for this.

Well, first off I'm not American, but either way, the Brits obviously were the ones who first started converting the natives weren't they? The savages in Canada were being dealt with pretty harshly before Canada was even a country of its own. That's sort of off topic imo anyways. I'm not saying we didn't do those things, that's not what the article was about. I say the same things when Canadians whine about immigration.

I was speaking about more recent British immigrants. When I travel overseas to countries that weren't part of the British Empire, I don't see Brits adopting the local culture, dress, language, customs, etc. If anything they seem to get more British. They have their British social club, hang out in a British pub, open a UK cultural center, often don't bother to even learn the language... When I lived in the Czech Rep. the most one Brit could say in Czech was "Another glass of wine please". My roomate here is English, but she's lived in Kenya and India as well. Her only Kenyan and Indian contacts were her maids. She certainly never adopted their cultural norms. Can you imagine how any woman from our culture would react if we had to become subservient to our husbands should we move to India? We'd say how we act at home is our business. The same goes for them.

 

[s243a]

They have their British social club, hang out in a British pub, open a UK cultural center, often don't bother to even learn the language... When I lived in the Czech Rep. the most one Brit could say in Czech was "Another glass of wine please".

Well, you got to learn the essential phrases first. I kind of see your point though. To be fair to the Brits, they accept more immigrants per Capita then the Czechs.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/imm_new_cit_percap-immigration-new-citizenships-per-capita

 

[s243a]

My roomate here is English, but she's lived in Kenya and India as well. Her only Kenyan and Indian contacts were her maids. She certainly never adopted their cultural norms. Can you imagine how any woman from our culture would react if we had to become subservient to our husbands should we move to India? We'd say how we act at home is our business. The same goes for them.

I agree.

 

[tracy]

Well, you got to learn the essential phrases first. I kind of see your point though. To be fair to the Brits, they accept more immigrants per Capita then the Czechs.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/imm_new_cit_percap-immigration-new-citizenships-per-capita

Sure, but that probably has to do with the fact that they can afford it. The Czech economy isn't exactly great.

 

[s243a]

Sure, but that probably has to do with the fact that they can afford it. The Czech economy isn't exactly great.

When you say can't afford it are you implying their is a cost to immigration? I think their can be a cost but it depends on alot of factors. Many Immigrants don't have to be trained so in one respect we get workers without having to pay for their education. On the other hand it means more people looking for housing which can add to the inflationary cost of housing prices.

It is truly hard to asses the opportunity cost of immigration. Sometimes countries may gain more economically then it costs and other times they don't but I don't think immigration policies are purely in place for economic reasons.

 

[Daz_Hockey]

Well, first off I'm not American, but either way, the Brits obviously were the ones who first started converting the natives weren't they? The savages in Canada were being dealt with pretty harshly before Canada was even a country of its own. That's sort of off topic imo anyways. I'm not saying we didn't do those things, that's not what the article was about. I say the same things when Canadians whine about immigration.
I was speaking about more recent British immigrants. When I travel overseas to countries that weren't part of the British Empire, I don't see Brits adopting the local culture, dress, language, customs, etc. If anything they seem to get more British. They have their British social club, hang out in a British pub, open a UK cultural center, often don't bother to even learn the language... When I lived in the Czech Rep. the most one Brit could say in Czech was "Another glass of wine please". My roomate here is English, but she's lived in Kenya and India as well. Her only Kenyan and Indian contacts were her maids. She certainly never adopted their cultural norms. Can you imagine how any woman from our culture would react if we had to become subservient to our husbands should we move to India? We'd say how we act at home is our business. The same goes for them.

Firstly, the British wernt the first ones to ship slaves to North America (they were however one of the first to stop) and while we stopped such an awful practise, the US and other N & S American countries continued it. You expanded exponentally after the British left (how does anyone NOT think of this as colonisation?) and that had nothing to do with Britain.....they were (and still are) as power hungry and land-grabbing as they ever were.
But anyway, most women must know as soon as they step out of the western world they are demoted to (at best) second class citizens; anyone moving to India MUST beware of this before hand, at least out in public.
I whole-heartedly agree with about British people congrigating in British pubs abroad, I dispise that type of person. They mainly go to places like Spain and seem not to realise to be in a different culture is the reason you travelled, not to stay at home. It's the same with the Polish here...we've got about 4 Polish shops have opened down the road, selling the same stuff we do, just "for polish people" which is the same thing as I just said...to top it, one of the shops even has a polish web adress...HELLO, your not in Poland!!!! and this is how, for example the Spanish must feel about British tourists.

 

[tracy]

When you say can't afford it are you implying their is a cost to immigration? I think their can be a cost but it depends on alot of factors. Many Immigrants don't have to be trained so in one respect we get workers without having to pay for their education. On the other hand it means more people looking for housing which can add to the inflationary cost of housing prices.

It is truly hard to asses the opportunity cost of immigration. Sometimes countries may gain more economically then it costs and other times they don't but I don't think immigration policies are purely in place for economic reasons.

Well, there is simply a cost for services, but there is also a cost in jobs. Any job an immigrant takes is a job a Czech person couldn't. Since they don't have a lot of open jobs, they can't absorb as many immigrants. I don't know the exact stats, but I'm pretty sure their unemployment level would be higher than the UK, the US or even Canada. People tend to immigrate to richer countries from poorer ones. That makes the UK a lot more attractive than the Czech Rep.

 

[tracy]

Firstly, the British wernt the first ones to ship slaves to North America (they were however one of the first to stop) and while we stopped such an awful practise, the US and other N & S American countries continued it. You expanded exponentally after the British left (how does anyone NOT think of this as colonisation?) and that had nothing to do with Britain.....they were (and still are) as power hungry and land-grabbing as they ever were.
But anyway, most women must know as soon as they step out of the western world they are demoted to (at best) second class citizens; anyone moving to India MUST beware of this before hand, at least out in public.
I whole-heartedly agree with about British people congrigating in British pubs abroad, I dispise that type of person. They mainly go to places like Spain and seem not to realise to be in a different culture is the reason you travelled, not to stay at home. It's the same with the Polish here...we've got about 4 Polish shops have opened down the road, selling the same stuff we do, just "for polish people" which is the same thing as I just said...to top it, one of the shops even has a polish web adress...HELLO, your not in Poland!!!! and this is how, for example the Spanish must feel about British tourists.

Again, I don't really care about the slave trade when it comes to this discussion. Congrats on being the first to end it and all, but it wasn't that period of history I was referring to.

As long as people from the UK go abroad without integrating completely I think it's hypocritical to expect that every immigrant that comes to the UK will integrate completely. If I took a job in Saudi Arabia tomorrow, I would certainly have to make some changes in how I dressed and acted in public. But, there would be limits to that. I wouldn't become a Saudi woman. At home, I wouldn't change that much. I'd still speak English even if I learned Arabic. I'd still eat foods that were familiar to me even if I ate new ones as well. I would still hang out with other expats because I could have a sense of kinship with them even as I made friends with natives of that country. I don't see why immigrants to my country should be scorned for doing the same thing.

I really wonder if the people who get so upset about this have ever moved abroad before. If they had, they might not think that the things immigrants do here were so malicious.

 

[Daz_Hockey]

My father lives (in the summer time at least) in India in his holiday villa, I've lived in Canada and the US for extended periods...as well as Romania for about 8 months...I do know what I'm talking about. But the Polish situation is something very different, the numbers are crazy, nearly a million on an island population of about 70mil is shocking...the impact is crazy.

 

[tamarin]

"Second, because numbers do matter. And the larger they are, the more they matter. And third, because, although it may not be politically correct to say so, culture matters too.

The Huguenots and the Jews were both of European, Judeo Christian culture and so more easily integrated into our society.

We are taking large numbers from cultures very distant from our own and from each other."

The immigration problem in Britain really is culturally significant. Does the island want to keep its culture or not? Multiculturalism has been a great tool to diminish the West. For some reason leftists don't want western culture to continue. They want dilution. The clueless insistence on the equality of all cultures is simply a means to their end: the modification of western history, traditions and roots. To be replaced by some grand, humanist scheme, totally pie-in-the-sky that they're sure awaits. It's nuts.

 

[Pangloss]

Well, there is simply a cost for services, but there is also a cost in jobs. Any job an immigrant takes is a job a Czech person couldn't. Since they don't have a lot of open jobs, they can't absorb as many immigrants. I don't know the exact stats, but I'm pretty sure their unemployment level would be higher than the UK, the US or even Canada. People tend to immigrate to richer countries from poorer ones. That makes the UK a lot more attractive than the Czech Rep.

In Canada, an immigrant cannot get an L.I. visa unless they have proof of a job. The potential employer has to be able to demonstrate that the search for a qualified Canadian was fruitless.

So, nuts to your "they take our jobs" BS.

Now if you are talking about refugees, well what are you moaning about? These people are refugees! That means they are escaping war, torture, persecution, slavery - any number of nightmares we should thank our lucky stars we know nothing about. OMG - some refugees are badly educated and get janitorial positions! So?

And yes, some 'fugees are lying, and some claims are pretty lame. Not nearly as many as you might think. The media jumps on pretty much every disputed claim and attempted deportation because it is great for ratings: the lefties cry "human rights abuse" and the righties cry "keep our borders sovereign."

Pangloss

 

[tracy]

In Canada, an immigrant cannot get an L.I. visa unless they have proof of a job. The potential employer has to be able to demonstrate that the search for a qualified Canadian was fruitless.

So, nuts to your "they take our jobs" BS.

Now if you are talking about refugees, well what are you moaning about? These people are refugees! That means they are escaping war, torture, persecution, slavery - any number of nightmares we should thank our lucky stars we know nothing about. OMG - some refugees are badly educated and get janitorial positions! So?

And yes, some 'fugees are lying, and some claims are pretty lame. Not nearly as many as you might think. The media jumps on pretty much every disputed claim and attempted deportation because it is great for ratings: the lefties cry "human rights abuse" and the righties cry "keep our borders sovereign."

Pangloss

I didn't say they take our jobs. That would be pretty stupid since I immigrated based on an employment visa myself. What I'm saying is exactly what you said: There has to be an open job for them to immigrate. If a country like the Czech Rep. doesn't have a lot of open jobs because their own population is looking for work, then they aren't going to absorb a lot of immigrants are they?

Secondly, where exactly did I whine about refugees? You may want to actually read what I write without putting your own twist on it because you're getting it dead wrong.

 

[Pangloss]

1) "Well there is simply a cost for services, but there is also a cost for jobs. Any job an immigrant takes is a job a Czech person couldn't." Your words there.

Now, unless you mean something other than what those words say right there, I don't have you wrong. If the words do mean something other, then please use other words. More accurate ones, perhaps.

2) I wrote "If you are talking about refugees" simply to cover the two major classes of newcomers: immigrants and refugees. As you were not talking about refugees, and there is an "if" in my statement, it obviously does not apply. As I am sure you already realized.

Glad to be of service.

Pangloss