What is true religion .

[L Gilbert]

And yet in basic terms it's impossible to be spiritual without being religious. No man is an island... but all carry within them the church of their own being and consciousness. Tom Harpur has always called it "the Christ within." We all possess the ability to feel connection. Religion becomes personal. And in this we recognize our spirituality.

Except for those of us without either religion or spirituality. I don't seek any connection to some higher power because I am pretty sure there isn't one. I feel connected to the universe and its inhabitants and that's all. Nothing is greater than anything else, just different.

 

[tamarin]

And yet if you feel connected to the "universe" it's a given that you're spiritual. Stated or not, you believe there's purpose and meaning to the greater whole you're a small part of. You belong to something that is much larger than you.
I love to take walks and get out a bit in the wild. By myself. It is hard on such excursions to not be aware of the presence of that larger other that seems to exist all about us. Life is so rich and so full, its imprint and expression so manifest in what we see and hear and touch, that it does more than a little overwhelm you. When you have time to think about it.

 

[TekJansen]

I don't seek any connection to some higher power because I am pretty sure there isn't one. I feel connected to the universe and its inhabitants and that's all.

And that is your faith, in my arrogant opinion. :lol:

 

[L Gilbert]

And yet if you feel connected to the "universe" it's a given that you're spiritual.

In your view perhaps, but not mine.

Main Entry: spir·i·tu·al·i·ty
Pronunciation: "spir-i-ch&-'wa-l&-tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
1 : something that in ecclesiastical law belongs to the church or to a cleric as such
2 : [SIZE=-1]CLERGY[/SIZE]
3 : sensitivity or attachment to religious values
4 : the quality or state of being spiritual

- Merriam-Webster

Main Entry: 1spir·i·tu·al
Pronunciation:

spir-i-ch

-w

l, -i-ch

l, -ich-w

l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Late Latin; Anglo-French espirital, spiritual, from Late Latin spiritualis, from Latin, of breathing, of wind, from spiritus
1 : of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit : [SIZE=-1]INCORPOREAL[/SIZE] <spiritual needs>
2 a : of or relating to sacred matters <spiritual songs> b : ecclesiastical rather than lay or temporal <spiritual authority> <lords spiritual>
3 : concerned with religious values
4 : related or joined in spirit <our spiritual home> <his spiritual heir>
5 a : of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomena b : of, relating to, or involving spiritualism : [SIZE=-1]SPIRITUALISTIC[/SIZE]
- spir·i·tu·al·ly adverb
- spir·i·tu·al·ness noun

- Merriam-Webster

The only definition that comes close is "4 : related or joined in spirit <our spiritual home> ....." But it doesn't hit the mark. I'm connected to the universe because I live in it, there is nothing incorporeal about it. I am connected to other creatures and things in the universe because we all exist in it. IOW, my connection to the universe and everything in it is purely a result of a common ground basis.

Stated or not, you believe there's purpose and meaning to the greater whole you're a small part of.

No, I don't.

You belong to something that is much larger than you.

Size is irrelevant.

 

[L Gilbert]

And that is your faith, in my arrogant opinion. :lol:

Actually, no. It's a certainty, not a faith. I have tangible grounds for thinking there are no "higher powers" and no grounds for thinking there are.

 

[TekJansen]

Actually, no. It's a certainty, not a faith. I have tangible grounds for thinking there are no "higher powers" and no grounds for thinking there are.

Funny, that's what religious folks say also.

There is no such thing as absolute certainty, imao.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Our connection to the larger universe beyond our own little planet is that every element heavier than helium had to be cooked up in the nuclear reactions inside a star, which then blew up and scattered its products around the neighbourhood , to be recondensed in another generation of stellar and planetary systems. That's the only such connection I know of. It also means the universe has to be a certain minimum size and age for us to exist at all, though it appears to be a lot bigger and older than that.

 

[L Gilbert]

Funny, that's what religious folks say also.

I've never heard any religious sort say they have tangible grounds for thinking there are "higher powers". I am sure that if I did, I would simply ask them to show me this evidence.

There is no such thing as absolute certainty, imao.

I am absolutely certain that the sun exists, you typed that silly statement, and I need another tea.

 

[TekJansen]

I'm not even sure that I exist, much less the sun.

...and religious folks use text(s) that they see as proof AND as being a true account of history to boot!

You may very well be a figment of my imagination or I of yours.

 

[L Gilbert]

I'm not even sure that I exist, much less the sun.

...and religious folks use text(s) that they see as proof AND as being a true account of history to boot!

You may very well be a figment of my imagination or I of yours.

lmao That's a valid point, but that's the way you see it. I am not you.
Religious folks cannot provide scientific evidence of the existence of any higher powers but refer constantly to the book of myths called "The Holy Bible" which by the way, constantly has to be reinterpreted to conform to scientific discoveries. In fact, there is no conclusive evidence that suggests that this Jesus Christ critter even existed.

I suppose we may be figments of each other's imagination, but I prefer not to base my life on ifs and maybes.

 

[TekJansen]

lmao That's a valid point, but that's the way you see it. I am not you.
...
I suppose we may be figments of each other's imagination, but I prefer not to base my life on ifs and maybes.

Heh...I am probably the only me right now, so no worries:lol:.

My life is based on the ifs and maybes of faith. I have faith that my girlfriend loves me. I have faith that my animals do too. I have faith that I am living a good life. I believe that there is both good and bad in man. I believe you exist (btw).

 

[jimmoyer]

My own delving into that search has convinced me that there's nothing to look for, all such experiences exist only inside our own heads and represent just a particular electrochemical state in the brain which can be induced in a variety of ways, like sensory deprivation, certain drugs, direct electrical stimulation, emotional or physical stress, illness and fever, meditation, and so on. There's no external reality to it, in my opinion.
------------------------------------------------------Dexter Sinister-------------------------------------------

Hmmm.... stark. And unprovable a thesis as that of most religions.

For example.

Scientists have just changed the DNA of mice's brains so that it can register seeing the color red.

Think about that one.

Their eyes were collecting the data for red but the brain was not wired to interpret it as such.

You could go either way with conclusions on this finding.

Is the brain "making it all up" as Dexter Sinister comes close to saying, or is the data there but not interpreted fully by the brain ?

A simpler way of posing it : Does a tree falling in the woods
make a sound if no one is there to hear it ?

Do things exist without an audience. Does anything exist without an observer ?

Science has proven that the observer does alter what it observes by the mere act of
observation, but that is another thought that might not fully explain the mice seeing red experiment.

So if the data is there, but the brain does not register it, then how does one
square that with Dexter's very stark and limiting and finite conclusions ?

What also doesn't fit Dexter's conclusions are the existence of things not observed
by our 5 senses. So we create tools to perceive them. X-rays. Extra dimensions.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

And unprovable a thesis as that of most religions.

I did offer it only as my opinion, remember.

Scientists have just changed the DNA of mice's brains so that it can register seeing the color red.

Sloppy research jim, that's not what they did. Certain mice were genetically modified so that their eyes now contain photoreceptors capable of detecting red light.

Does a tree falling in the woods make a sound if no one is there to hear it ?

Sophistry. If by 'sound' you mean the pattern of vibrations set up by the falling tree in the air and ground and other materials around it, then yes, of course it does.

Science has proven that the observer does alter what it observes by the mere act of
observation

A popular and inaccurate conclusion from quantum theory that's generated a lot of nonsense. Read this.

What also doesn't fit Dexter's conclusions are the existence of things not observed
by our 5 senses. So we create tools to perceive them. X-rays. Extra dimensions.

No tool can perceive extra dimensions, all we've got are mathematical techniques that enable us to think about them in certain ways. Tools for things like detecting x-rays convert what they detect into things our senses can detect. Morever, the electrochemical states in the brain I referred to are observed by our senses; how else could we be aware of them? The error is in imputing complex and mystical causes to them when they're readily explained much more prosaically. Occam's Razor, jim.

 

[L Gilbert]

Heh...I am probably the only me right now, so no worries:lol:.

My life is based on the ifs and maybes of faith. I have faith that my girlfriend loves me. I have faith that my animals do too. I have faith that I am living a good life. I believe that there is both good and bad in man. I believe you exist (btw).

Likewise.
I don't really need faith that my wife, kids, & critters love me because I know it........

 

[selfactivated]

Likewise.
I don't really need faith that my wife, kids, & critters love me because I know it........

Your Faith is chaos and Dex is logic......any two people that so vehiamantly seek after a cause that has to be faith......I mean no disrespect in saying so but the quote "Me thinks thou protests to much" applies here. *kiss*

 

[selfactivated]

I dont think the word chaos is right either......but its not logical either......I'll think on it somemore

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Your Faith is chaos and Dex is logic......any two people that so vehiamantly seek after a cause that has to be faith......I mean no disrespect in saying so but the quote "Me thinks thou protests to much" applies here. *kiss*

No offense taken, my friend, I know what you mean. I try to walk the line between being so open-minded my brains fall out, and so skeptical that I don't believe anything. Not always easy.

 

[selfactivated]

No offense taken, my friend, I know what you mean. I try to walk the line between being so open-minded my brains fall out, and so skeptical that I don't believe anything. Not always easy.

*giggle* You walk that line quite fine Your consistant and your a true gentleman in the proccess. Thats why I Love you so much. Consistancy is a rare trait especially in faith

 

[china]

hi ,this is China I will repond to some of your posts in the nearest future .I,m on the business trip and staying in different hotel evey day .Some have computers , some don't ;and there is the time element that I have to consider. This topic of religion is not an easy one as each of us have a different idea what religion is or isn't .So , I just browse the forum ,add few words here or there ,and look at my watch to see how much time I have till the next meeting.

 

[L Gilbert]

Your Faith is chaos and Dex is logic......any two people that so vehiamantly seek after a cause that has to be faith......I mean no disrespect in saying so but the quote "Me thinks thou protests to much" applies here. *kiss*

uh-huh.

I love you, too, but .........

Main Entry: 1faith
Pronunciation: 'fAth
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural faiths /'fAths, sometimes 'fA[th]z/
Etymology: Middle English feith, from Anglo-French feid, fei, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust -- more at [SIZE=-1]BIDE[/SIZE]
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : [SIZE=-1]LOYALTY[/SIZE] b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>
synonym see [SIZE=-1]BELIEF[/SIZE]

What we are referring to here, unless I'm mistaken is the parts I've posted in red. They do not apply to me. I do have allegiances, loyalty, sincerity, and fidelity to things not requiring belief in myths. I also have complete trust in extremely few things that do not entail said myths.

And, no. My "faith" is not based upon chaos. My certainties are based upon what science has taught me and what I've observed personally. To me the universe and contents are perfectly ordered. Humans may not know the order of all things but we find more and more as time goes by.