Origin of Universe: God <vs> Big Bang/Non-God theories

[karrie]

Well then if you are taking your child to church and you persist with it you will be instilling your beliefs in your child. If that's your choice as a parent then you need to know that religion will become a part of him because of the fact that he is very impressionable at the age of 5. You have made your choice but for me I would avoid the church for him at least until he is capable of making an intelligent decision on his own. Perhaps the age of 12 would be a good time to introduce a child to religion IMHO. I trust you are coming to learn and accep this concept karrie, as it's apparent to me that you didn't understand when I first introduced it to you a few days ago. In fact you appeared to be quite hostile toward the idea. Think about that o.k? It's not originally my idea, it comes from the experts who are qualified to talk about such things. Perhaps do some research if you care about the implications enough?

I'm not trying to tell you what to do with your child, I'm only giving you the logical consequences of the religious education you have chosen. And I'm very concerned that somehting I say may be taken as an insult so I want to jus ensure you that none is intended. The new rules ya know. ;-)

I know plenty of people who were raised Catholic, my own siblings for example, who are now atheists. The core values of respect for others, respect for self were still kept, but they discarded what didn't apply to their personal truth. So your assertion that my kids will not be able to decide for themselves down the road simply does not hold true to me. And I'm sorry if I made you feel I was hostile towards the ideas you presented. Not one idea you have put forward has offended me. To be truthful, and not trying to pick a fight, the attitude you put them forth with at times is what has bugged me and caused issue.

You have to take into account that MY beliefs are what will be instilled. And, my beliefs include religious tolerance, that all humans should have the same gonvermental rights, that scientific exploration is key to human understanding, and that one should never stop learning or exploring. I don't see anything wrong with letting my children get an education in many different areas, backed up with MY beliefs.

 

[lieexpsr]

Not to mention the fact that not one of the Catholics I've met here, or in the real world, says that it should all be taken literally. Not one nun or priest I've discussed the issue with has EVER said that. It's simply too old, been translated too many times, and was written for an audience with a much smaller understanding of the universe.

I do not accept the excuse that it was written for an audience with much less ability to understand. That could be true if the lies and mistakes were not present. For example, considering that it is supposed to be the infallible truth and the word of god, did it make it easier to understand to say that the earth was the center of the universe. Why would god say that if he knew it wasn't true.

Don't pick on that one example becaust that's all it is, an example. Explain to me why some many wrong assumptions were made. Clearly it is not the word of god, it is the word of a bunch of mortals who couldn't even get it right amongst themselves. Why they couldn't even get it right about the events which took place when Jesus was supposed to come back to life. Which version do you believe and then we can discuss it if you like. :angel8:

And of course the reason why they can't say it literal is because they are sensible enough to reallize that they can't any more. Check out the southern Baptists who are still stuck on the 6000-100000 year old earth nonsense!

 

[karrie]

My signature is doing nothing more than recording religious hate and bigotry. If it makes you uncomfortable, and I imagine it could, you can report it to the moderators and if they wish for me to change it then I will. Be aware though that what you are doing is censoring my right to free expression. If that becomes a part of the new rules then I think we are all in a lot of trouble!

Think about it before you act!

My point is that it is hypocritical. You keep an inflammatory sig up, you comment on poor forum ettiquette, yet you expect that we won't point out bad behavior and bad ettiquette? You are attempting to censor as well, and if that starts, we are all in a lot of trouble!

 

[lieexpsr]

read my post above.

My point was that tomorrows facts are todays fantasies. This is a valid concept, an important philosphical point, and admittedly presented in a humourous way, but that doesnt detract from it's meaning. At least to those of us who can think on more than one level at a time

I'm sure you are not suggesting that I can't think on more than one level at a time. ;-)

 

[karrie]

Which version do you believe and then we can discuss it if you like. :angel8:

And of course the reason why they can't say it literal is because they are sensible enough to reallize that they can't any more. Check out the southern Baptists who are still stuck on the 6000-100000 year old earth nonsense!

Is there a version I believe in? The answer would be no. All are, as you say, written by humans. Humans are flawed. Humans have agendas. Humans have limits in understanding due to the times and societies in which they exist. Do I think that it was inspired? Yes. Do I think it contains many great lessons, yes. I judge it as I do anything else in life.... does it have more good to teach than anything else? yes. so I keep it. If it contained more bad than good, I wouldn't be a Christian anymore. Simple as that.

 

[lieexpsr]

You know, I'd love to expand on it more, but there's simply no way to! it's a gut feeling, it's something I can't explain thoroughly. There's no scientific basis for it, no links to back my argument up with. Just, a personal sense. Thus, the laughter and dismissal. Anytime people talk about Heaven, it makes me laugh a little inside, because I really don't feel there is some place hidden up in the clouds where we'll all go and gather as ourselves. I feel there's just an excess of energy holding the world together, an undercurrent from which we draw our intelligence. We die, and it simply reabsorbs what's holding us together. We go back to that flow. *shrugs* and there you have it. lol.

This may sound entirely unromantic but my answer to you is that you need to explore the science which explains the workings of our brains. My link to the Dawkins site is a really good start. And I realize that some people don't want to lose the romance that is in it. If that's you then leave it alone. It can't be any more straight forward than that and please don't bother saying that it is something deeper than that or above that, because you simply don't know.

 

[darkbeaver]

We are never going to know it all but we may know enough to write off religious superstition in the foreseeable future.

I hope you're right. That's a matter of education I belive.Even then it will be impossible to remove the sense of awe in the mysterys of the universe, that is a fundemental human quality.If we are sucessful in removing all practices that do not conform with scientific examination, it will be a poor planet to live on. What can science tell us about art and literature or love? A black and white world is not what any of us want is it?:wave:

 

[lieexpsr]

much more palatable. I am very much a fence-sitter in this matter. I truly believe there's no way we can logically say one way or the other at this stage. I do disagree with one of your statements, though. I don't think that any possible God would necessarily have to have a part to play in everything. I think it's perfectly possible for Him/Her/It to have started everything and left it to develop. I also don't think that the theory flies in the face of all current christian belief. certainly your average catholic wouldn't agree but there are as many kinds of christians as there are christians themselves.

There are as many assorted religious beliefs as Carter has pills, and that's what makes it so funny. For instance assuming the Christians have it right, they all get raptured up and the other 4.5 billion get offed. (and most Christians aren't even charitable enough to include others' denominations!)

 

[karrie]

This may sound entirely unromantic but my answer to you is that you need to explore the science which explains the workings of our brains. My link to the Dawkins site is a really good start. And I realize that some people don't want to lose the romance that is in it. If that's you then leave it alone. It can't be any more straight forward than that and please don't bother saying that it is something deeper than that or above that, because you simply don't know.

lol... I had brought that up with you, that the brains of the spiritual work differently, and you dismissed it as merely being a result of societal upbringing. I know perfectly well that a lot of it has to do with the workings of our brains. Like I've told you, there's not much I haven't researched on the topic. But scientifically explaining that they DO work differently doesn't explain WHY they work differently. See the problem there? Well, it doesn't really matter if you do I suppose, because I do, and that's what matters in my perception of the universe.

 

[darkbeaver]

Your words speak my heart. I understand that feeling completely. I do not believe in God in the traditional sense, just that there's some kind of binding energy that holds us all together.. I don't know what it is, it could be no more than our thoughts and feelings having an affect on each other, but it's still there.

The Gian stuff about the power of the planet itself as a complex organism as that binding energy you're talking about offers me a lot of comfort.:wave:

 

[lieexpsr]

I know plenty of people who were raised Catholic, my own siblings for example, who are now atheists. The core values of respect for others, respect for self were still kept, but they discarded what didn't apply to their personal truth. So your assertion that my kids will not be able to decide for themselves down the road simply does not hold true to me. And I'm sorry if I made you feel I was hostile towards the ideas you presented. Not one idea you have put forward has offended me. To be truthful, and not trying to pick a fight, the attitude you put them forth with at times is what has bugged me and caused issue.

You have to take into account that MY beliefs are what will be instilled. And, my beliefs include religious tolerance, that all humans should have the same gonvermental rights, that scientific exploration is key to human understanding, and that one should never stop learning or exploring. I don't see anything wrong with letting my children get an education in many different areas, backed up with MY beliefs.

You need to understand the meaning of the word 'hostile' and then you won't be offended so easily. If your siblings lost their religion then I'm betting that they didn't have it strongly instilled in them when they were young. You seem to be confusing the fact that children are likely to adopt their childhood learning as a part of their lives in adulthood with the fact not all do adopt everything. Let's move beyond that because your continuing to use that as an argument is not helping.

The principle is: If a child has religious beliefs strongly instilled in him at a young age then depending on the forcefulness of that teaching, the child will adopt those beliefs. It's just as sure as the fact that if a child isn't shown love and kindness by it's parents then that will have very negative effects on the person when he is an adult. So extreme that our murders, child molesters, and other violent criminals' behaviour can be traced back to childhood influences in the wide majority of cases, if in fact not all. If you take your child to church every Sunday, make him say his prayers at dinner time, immerse him in church functions where he is subject to a priest's ideas, etc., you will be ensuring that he will grow up to be a Christian who practices the faith. I don't know how extreme your Christian education is but you get the drift I'm sure. And if you make a a hardcore Christian of your kid then IMO that is going to hamper him throughout his life.

As a christian believer you may want to reject the idea because you are probably convinced that you are right with your faith. I don't know about that because to me you seem to be wavering all over the place, but that's only my perception and may not be entirely true. But I believe that you have now adopted the concept and you are now left with the choice of whether or not to leave such teaching until the age of 12, at which time you will not have the same power over your child and he can make his own choices. It's not teaching him that religion is wrong, it's only allowing him to make his own decision bases on his worldy experiences.

You understand the concept so I'm through explaining this to you for now unless you are interested in expanding on the idea.

 

[lieexpsr]

My point is that it is hypocritical. You keep an inflammatory sig up, you comment on poor forum ettiquette, yet you expect that we won't point out bad behavior and bad ettiquette? You are attempting to censor as well, and if that starts, we are all in a lot of trouble!

You are entitled to your opinion but I'm keeping my signature up until you convince them that it needs to be taken down. It's illustrative of Christianity to a large extent IMO and that's why it's there. It's not inflammatory. Grab something I have said if you must and even attach my name to it if it serves your purpose. Also keep in mind that I didn't attach the offending christian's name but I could have done. Or just take it as the punishment that is deserved by the offending individual.

 

[thorswolf]

Interesting thread. I noticed one teensy-weensy missing dimension and that's time and our own point of view. We are still egotistical in thinking that our own (very fallible) human point of view is the only one that exists and that patterns of the Universe HAVE to fit within our own very limited worldview. We see time in a very linear fashion and we see events as unfolding through that perception of time: this happened, THEN that happened, etc. It's our own perception and our own observation, but who says that it's the truth?

My own 2% of a dollar...

 

[lieexpsr]

lol... I had brought that up with you, that the brains of the spiritual work differently, and you dismissed it as merely being a result of societal upbringing. I know perfectly well that a lot of it has to do with the workings of our brains. Like I've told you, there's not much I haven't researched on the topic. But scientifically explaining that they DO work differently doesn't explain WHY they work differently. See the problem there? Well, it doesn't really matter if you do I suppose, because I do, and that's what matters in my perception of the universe.

This doesn't make any sense at all! If you think I have been inconsistent then you have not read carefully. If you want to try to restate that in a language we can understand then I am willing to devote more time to you. I'll just add that if you don't understand that in this case DO and WHY are the same, and if you don't get that then you are not comprehending.

WARNING: The impoliteness between us is escalating karrie. Let's both keep that in mind.

 

[lieexpsr]

The Gian stuff about the power of the planet itself as a complex organism as that binding energy you're talking about offers me a lot of comfort.:wave:

You must mean the Gaia stuff. I like it too but I choose to use other terms because it doesn't completely explain where I'm coming from. And besides, it subject to a lot of derision from religious people and I don't like opening any doors for them, so to speak.

 

[lieexpsr]

Interesting thread. I noticed one teensy-weensy missing dimension and that's time and our own point of view. We are still egotistical in thinking that our own (very fallible) human point of view is the only one that exists and that patterns of the Universe HAVE to fit within our own very limited worldview. We see time in a very linear fashion and we see events as unfolding through that perception of time: this happened, THEN that happened, etc. It's our own perception and our own observation, but who says that it's the truth?

My own 2% of a dollar...

You got that right thor. Stick around we can use a breathe of fresh air here.

 

[hermanntrude]

I'm sure you are not suggesting that I can't think on more than one level at a time. ;-)

Well u seem to have missed my point in that post, which suggests you either assumed stupidity on my part or lacked the insight to see what i was saying.

 

[lieexpsr]

Can someone explain the rep point thing for me? I've now got a red mark next to my name and not that I really care but does that happen when you get enough negative rep points to outdo the positive ones? For instance, I know that there are enough people around to add em up in this manner and it really doesn't matter to me unless they can effectively give a person they disagree with enought to have an effect in getting rid of a person with different opinions. It's a mystery because everything I have said today has been perfectly polite and allowable and within the forum rules, but the red mard has just showed up in the last hour.

Actually, if there are no real damaging implications to it other than it shows that people have to attack opinions which they disagree with, I sort of wear it as a badge of honour.

Anybody know what this is all about?

I guess I better go and check who's got a ha--on for me today!

 

[hermanntrude]

Interesting thread. I noticed one teensy-weensy missing dimension and that's time and our own point of view. We are still egotistical in thinking that our own (very fallible) human point of view is the only one that exists and that patterns of the Universe HAVE to fit within our own very limited worldview. We see time in a very linear fashion and we see events as unfolding through that perception of time: this happened, THEN that happened, etc. It's our own perception and our own observation, but who says that it's the truth?

My own 2% of a dollar...

I heard somewhere that there may be imaginary time as well as real time, in the same way we have imaginary and real numbers.... intriguing, eh?

 

[lieexpsr]

Well u seem to have missed my point in that post, which suggests you either assumed stupidity on my part or lacked the insight to see what i was saying.

I think we'll just leave it at that now. I'll just add that I have no bad intentions toward you.