How can we get rid of our sinfulness?

L Gilbert

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Uh... What?!?

Last time I checked, the universe was defined as: "The observable, physical space in which we live." It is defined to be the measurable.
How big is it, then? Can you provide me with a definitive number for the amount of suns it contains?

But lets not get off track the topic of sin. Measuring physical variable is far simpler than measuring social or psychological ones.
I agree.
 

Niflmir

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Dec 18, 2006
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How big is it, then? Can you provide me with a definitive number for the amount of suns it contains?

I can tell you that. The number is called aleph-one, it represents the cardinality of the real numbers, our universe is that big. As to the number of stars, that's aleph-null. Remember, if we can someday measure it, then it is measurable. If we will never be able to measure it, and no one ever will be able to, that is unmeasurable, regardless of our current limitations or position.

You could argue that sin is that sort of thing... in fact I generally argue that. I actually believe that moral objectivity is just false. I do not think that you can ever completely know that what you did is universally wrong, only that what you did was bad based on some principals that you have accepted.
 

L Gilbert

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I can tell you that. The number is called aleph-one, it represents the cardinality of the real numbers, our universe is that big.
Cardinalities are just a measurement of the elements in a set. Aleph one is a vaguery. How many light years across is the universe?
As to the number of stars, that's aleph-null.
How many stars are in an aleph null? Remember I said in defintive numbers.

You could argue that sin is that sort of thing... in fact I generally argue that. I actually believe that moral objectivity is just false. I do not think that you can ever completely know that what you did is universally wrong, only that what you did was bad based on some principals that you have accepted.
Pretty much. Personally, I rely just on my perception of whether something I did caused discomfort or harm to anyone else; usually they tell me if I did. That keeps it simple for me and I'm pretty good at not doing those things. The one I keep slipping up on though is the seventh cardinal sin, sloth. I get lazy now and then. :)
 

mapleleafgirl

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Dec 13, 2006
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Psychology is iffy as a science. But as I said earlier, emotions, thoughts, and the like can be measured in electrochemical activity.

you can probably measure the body waves or whatever, but you cant measure how a person feels, or what she thinks.and you cant measure those sorts of things because they are emotions
 

mapleleafgirl

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Right on, Sanc. My problem with them is that I don't see them doing their level best at the job, but overall, I'm really glad that at least some of them exist.

what do you think the job of the church is anyway?for me it would seem to be doing whatever god tells it to do, if that is what they are all about anyway
 

m_levesque

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Dec 18, 2006
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Just wanted to declare my good intentions. I was raised Roman Catholic, but fell out when I realized that what I though being Christian meant differed from what everyone else thought.
cal choices?

God gives us our will to do what you want, and because of our ignorance, selfishness, pride, blindness, weakness, lack of faith, you name it, etc:
- we don't see Jesus Death's is for us,
- we are not truly sorry for our sins,
- we don't know that if without God's Mercy, we are doomed for eternity in the fire of Hell.
- we don't see that our sins hurt Jesus enough.
- we don't thank Him enough for His Death and resurrection.

We are so blinded by our sins.
I am sure many others can give you more reasons.
 

m_levesque

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Dec 18, 2006
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Yup. Priorities have been an issue for a long time. I think it's partially due to the idea that people are serving society rather than societies serving their peoples (which is their whole purpose). Joseph Campbull mentioned this in one of his books. Societies were (are) developed to support people's survival and activities. Now, it seems as if societies have started using people to ensure their own survival and activities. Gov'ts are good examples of this. The machine exists not for the people but for itself. It's no wonder that people have become like that. They've been trained to be that way. Why? Is it to keep them from advancing faster than society can handle by keeping them focused on themselves at the exclusion of others?


The need for our salvation then is freely offered by our sinless God with his own death on the cross. Having lived a sinless life, Christ offers us his own death in place of our own to assume the penalty of our actions that we deserve. Placing faith in Jesus Christ and asking him to indwell within you assures us of our spiritual salvation when we physically die. That is the promise of God, which is why we Catholics share this good news with others.

If one wants the gift of salvific assurance, then all one would have to do is take account of one's sins, acknowledge one's need for a savior, and pray to receive Christ the way one would receive a gift. Then one should seek out a Catholic Church and ask the priest for guidance to ensure one's faith is properly disposed to receive Christ fully at a mass (classes are required for non-Catholics) and partake of the sacraments to shed our sinfulness while still on earth. We call this process living the life of grace.
 

m_levesque

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No problem with that. Where I differ is that I prefer to have a relationship with nature or the universe because I know for a fact that either exist. I find comfort in those facts.

You cannot really think that's the best science can offer? I agree that it's a low point, but there are much better things available from science.

God made us to His likeness and that ment that we have our own minds to make up. We are not made like a computer. You might remember St Paul saying "Body of mine why do you do the things I detest"? (Acts of)
The love of God NEVER controls unless for a reason God demands something to show that He and He alone is God of all. Take Paul (saul) when he was knocked off his horse and God appointed him as an apostle. Up til that time Saul had sinned manny times.

God gives us the spirit of control, and the spirit of discernment those are His gift to us should we ask for them. However God also knows our heart, take the sinner on the cross who asked Jesus to remember him when He went into His kingdom, God's mersy saw right into the persons heart and mercy was given him just as it is given those of us who sin ( make mistakes) through our own weaknesses.
God like all good fathers (and better) allows us to live in freedom not caged up animals. So His Mercy oversees our hearts and thoughts, just as He expects His children to exercise mercy on our brothers and sisters ( all people) here.
 

csanopal

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Dec 22, 2006
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Fr. C. G. Vaillancourt
Have Mercy on me a sinner [Luke 18:10-14]
There were two men who came to the temple, one was justifying himself saying Lord thank you for making me a good man, I pay my taxes to the Church, I give alms, I study the Law of the prophets, I am really good, but that man on the corner is a publican, he truly is a sinner, I am happy that I am not like Him. In the mean time the other man was beating his breast saying: Lord have mercy on me, I am a sinner.
Jesus said that the second man went home justified because he accepted that He was a sinner. Someone called Jesus good and He rebuked Him saying there is only one who is Good, the Father in Heaven. Therefore, we are no good, and the more we think we are, the more evil we become because we allow pride to take the better of us.
We must understand that the only reason why Christ died for us is because His goodness makes up for the evil in us. We have offended God starting with Adam to the last man, and the offence is of infinite value because it is done not to something finite but to God who is Almighty and Infinite in all His perfections. So the offence had to be paid with coin of infinite value which is Christ Our Lord.
We have an infinite debt with Him, if we aspire to live eternally. How can we pay? God knows what we are made of and He only expects us to believe in Him, to believe in His Son and to accept His Salvation. He has called us to repent and to amend our lives, to love Him and to love our neighbour.
The just man sins seven times a day, so we must indeed sin many more times than him, we have to accept that we are sinners and we must shed tears of repentance for our sins.
To appreciate the Love of God for us, we must become familiar with the Passion, agony and death of Our Lord Jesus Christ, our King. This way we will know Him more and this knowledge will grow into great love for God. At the same time we will understand the role of Mary in our Salvation, because it is through Mary that Jesus came into the world and we must realise the debt that we have to her, who is our Mother and Queen.
God is infinitely merciful [Psalm 103], but we must come to the Throne of Mercy to obtain pardon for our sins, we must truly feel sorry of having crucified Jesus on the cross and we must come to Him with humility, because without Him there is no Salvation.
He has set up his throne of Mercy in the confessional box, where He listens through the priest in order that we may humble ourselves. By confessing our sins to another man we are giving witness that Jesus is Our Saviour, and that He is still alive through the Sacraments of His Church. I will be with you until the end of times [Matthew 28:20].
The Sacrament of Reconciliation produces the fruit of peace in our souls and prepares us to be worthy to receive the Precious Body and Blood of Jesus in the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist.


Repentance is key to being forgiven; a person who approaches someone to ask forgiveness is, in essence, then repentant of what he did. A person who is not sorry for what he did will not ask for forgiveness, and hence could not be forgiven. It's actually simple, common sense.
 

L Gilbert

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you can probably measure the body waves or whatever, but you cant measure how a person feels, or what she thinks.and you cant measure those sorts of things because they are emotions
Should pay attention in science class, hun. Or perhaps that stuff isn't taught till psych 101 or so, but it's in the science mags anyway. EEGs measure brain waves and how intense they can get. It's a very well researched subject. Everything a body does is sorted out throught the brain, that includes autonomous functions as well as voluntary functions and each action by the brain is measurable as it is only electrochemical activity and electrical signals can be measured down to nanovolts and the like.
 

L Gilbert

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what do you think the job of the church is anyway?for me it would seem to be doing whatever god tells it to do, if that is what they are all about anyway
I think the job of whatever faith is simply a guide for people to live by. As Einstein once said, "The desire for guidance, love, and support prompts men to form thesocial or moral conception of God." Some of us can do quite well without this support and guidance; others obviously cannot.
 

L Gilbert

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The need for our salvation then is freely offered by our sinless God
Sinless god? Which one are you referring to? There have been myriads of sinless gods. Pretty tough for a myth to actually commit a sin.
Um, if you are referring to Yahweh, the critter has been written several times in the holey bible to have broken its own commandments.

If one wants the gift of salvific assurance, then all one would have to do is take account of one's sins, acknowledge one's need for a savior, and pray to receive Christ the way one would receive a gift. Then one should seek out a Catholic Church and ask the priest for guidance to ensure one's faith is properly disposed to receive Christ fully at a mass (classes are required for non-Catholics) and partake of the sacraments to shed our sinfulness while still on earth. We call this process living the life of grace.
Why sin in the first place? Seems to me that if one defies doing the things laid out in the 10 commandments and the cardinal sins, one can be pretty much sin free. And all that takes is some self-control and willpower.
 

L Gilbert

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God made us to His likeness and that ment that we have our own minds to make up. We are not made like a computer. You might remember St Paul saying "Body of mine why do you do the things I detest"? (Acts of)
Um, see it's my opinion that man made gods in his own image. My body does things I don't like once in a while; it creaks and pains and such things. I think that comes with age and I don't consider aging a sin.
The love of God NEVER controls unless for a reason God demands something to show that He and He alone is God of all. Take Paul (saul) when he was knocked off his horse and God appointed him as an apostle. Up til that time Saul had sinned manny times.
Far be it for me to bend your opinion to mine, but your god acts an awful lot like humans do, what with the temper tantrums, the murder, the jealousy, etc. That's one reason why I think man invented gods.

God gives us the spirit of control, and the spirit of discernment those are His gift to us should we ask for them.
I have self-control, I have the power of judgement, etc. and I never asked for these attributes from anyone: I learned them, I developed them within myself.
However God also knows our heart, take the sinner on the cross who asked Jesus to remember him when He went into His kingdom, God's mersy saw right into the persons heart and mercy was given him just as it is given those of us who sin ( make mistakes) through our own weaknesses.
God like all good fathers (and better) allows us to live in freedom not caged up animals. So His Mercy oversees our hearts and thoughts, just as He expects His children to exercise mercy on our brothers and sisters ( all people) here.
Uhuh. All this stuff may be written into your bible, but I prefer to follow simpler and more concise guidelines to life and a lot less hearsay.
 

look3467

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Dec 13, 2006
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Sinless god? Which one are you referring to? There have been myriads of sinless gods. Pretty tough for a myth to actually commit a sin.
Um, if you are referring to Yahweh, the critter has been written several times in the holey bible to have broken its own commandments.>>>L Gilbert

Common sense view there Gilbert, though true. But if you are right, then I stand to loose nothing. And if you are wrong, well, I loose all that Yahweh can give me.

The world offers me everything, riches, glory and fame, and on the other side, poverty, sicknesses and disease, and most of all death.

This things we all share whether we believe in a God or not. The only advantage one would have over the other is one been born to a rich family over one born in poverity.

Now, in the case of the believer in God, not just “a” god, but Yahweh God, then of one is rich in spirit, of which this world could not and can not touch.

The world can have your body but not your soul.

The choice not to believe in Yahweh God, is absolutely “OK”.

But one thing I can surely say, I know there is a God, who dearly loves me and works to my end.

The end that is: in overcoming everything this world has to offer in lieu of His love.

One can be in this world, but one does not have to be of this world.

There in lies the choice.

Peace>>>AJ
 

sanctus

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Ever read the Tao Te Ching? My favorite version is the translation by Gia Fu Feng. I found for the most part it parallels the bible in teachings but a lot of the stuff that's easily misinterpreted and sidetracks people's minds is left out. It is concise and simple.


I have read it, yes. Truth is a universal message, if you will. What is in the Scriptures regarding life is understood in many cultures. The unique quality of the Bible is its indication that it is God who spreads His truth to mankind.
 

sanctus

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No problem with that. Where I differ is that I prefer to have a relationship with nature or the universe because I know for a fact that either exist. I find comfort in those facts.

.


And for me, I know for a fact that God exists. I too have a relationship with His world, but in it I see so many points of evidence for not only His existence, but His continued presence in our lives.
 

sanctus

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Right on, Sanc. My problem with them is that I don't see them doing their level best at the job, but overall, I'm really glad that at least some of them exist.

Whenever you have any organization that involves mankind in its membership, you are going to have some of the members not behaving in accordance with the stated standards/beliefs of the organization. That does not make the Church corrupt, or evil in essence. The Church itself, being created and governed by God, is perfect. Some of its members though....:)
 

sanctus

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If one wants the gift of salvific assurance, then all one would have to do is take account of one's sins, acknowledge one's need for a savior, and pray to receive Christ the way one would receive a gift. Then one should seek out a Catholic Church and ask the priest for guidance to ensure one's faith is properly disposed to receive Christ fully at a mass (classes are required for non-Catholics) and partake of the sacraments to shed our sinfulness while still on earth. We call this process living the life of grace.


We call the process conversion. I am somewhat uncomfortable with your statement regarding "receiving Christ as your Saviour". This smacks a bit of protestant pentecostalism and is not in accordance with the teachings of the Church. Yes, we are to allow the Spirit of God, Jesus, into our hearts, but be careful of this "personal relationship" with Jesus stuff. That smacks of humanism.