Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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To the posters here

I have started off getting on Sanctus' case about my anger with the Church - and while he represents the modern Church - he cannot be responsible for the laws of that body.

We can discuss what we dislike, ask questions to clarify things which we don't understand, and even remark on the apparent stupidity of some of the Church's rules, but ....

Sanctus is not responsible for the whole Church.....but necessarily his answers must be committed to that Church.

I realize now the tremendous input from people priests must carry from their believers, and perhaps coming to a secular gathering such as this forum, can give him a bit of relief - even with the rabble rousers here many of whom have great intellect, interesting dialogue and represent a cross-section of our world....

.....I would hope Sanctus be allowed "recreational time here" as much as we allow it for ourselves without
the constant challenging people are giving him..... for whatever your personal reasons are.... none of us are perfect.

Why do you demand it of Sanctus?

Very well, I will offer my apologies to sanctus, if he addresses the proof posted to him.

I have gone on a bit of an attack mode myself, because I see a self righteous tone in sanctus' writing. I have a history with the church, and quite frankly I let it effect my better judgement at times. The elitism and finality of the words of the church in the eyes and writings of its supporters drive me nuts. 1) Because, there is no difinitive proof that they are the truth, 2) Because with their words they negate the value of all other religions, 3) I see very little ablity to debate, just dismiss proof with prejudice, without the smallest attempt to rebuttle it in any way.

But as I said, if sanctus will take his lofty expertise and apply some debating skills, instead of preaching skills to the proof posted to him, I will appologise sincerely, for my agression towords him.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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Bear

You are a passionate guy - I see nothing wrong with this - but what if Sanctus cannot answer you?

I can't speak for Sanctus but perhaps there are some answers he cannot share here on a public forum?

Perhaps you can tell us why you feel the church has strayed from its original promise you believe it made
to all of us and why you are angry with that institution?

I can think of dozens of reasons of my own, but they are all boring....yours are at least meaty and testy!!!

BTW - good morning!
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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Morning WC.

As usual your post made me think and thus made me offer my conditional apology.

To answer your questions...

Having been over seas and done extensive traveling on the governments dime. As well as my work for a contract mining company, which allowed me to see South America, in its most rural. And being a curious person, with a love of historic places. I have visited Mosques and Temples in Jeruselem, Lebanon, England, Ireland, Somolia, Nicaragua, Mexico, Guatemala etc.

I have seen Buddist monks, Orthdox Jews, Imams, Cardinals and Clerics preach their faiths. Often in languages I could not understand. But I could see the passion.

I took what I witnessed and placed it with the traditional Native teachings of my Grand Father, and based a whole way of life on them. Peace is paramount. That does not mean one can not take up arms for a just cause, but more a daily peace, free of the prejudices of others, respecting all the live and their right to go freely to prayer without condemnation of others.

I see in sanctus the opposite, I see the Catholic churches views that their views are the only views, when clearly they are not. No one group can claim superiority without trampling someone else in the process, no matter how tolerant they claim to be. I am guilty of this myself. But I claim no superior high ground. I am(sanctus might get that).

The Catholic church is guilty of sins as is the Fundamentalist Islam sects. They have perpetuated suffering in Africa with their deniel of the use of condoms, drive Catholisism down the throats of the Native peoples, started the Spanish inquisition and the supported the crusades, just to go slighty into their history in reverse.

My persoanl history is misserable, I was born left handed, I am now right handed. I was changed. I was beaten if I crossed myself with my left. I was made to be an example of because, in their words, I was "the heathen child of dogs". The cruelty I endured, was not merely just mine. I witnessed it being inflicted on anyone that did not fit neatly into the white iconic world of the church. Jesus was born in a time of near racial purity, in an area of the world that would undoubtedly be inhabited by olive skinned or darker, peoples, yet in the Church, Jesus is almost always white, or just a tender tan. This is a racial hypocracy that only furthers the divission in the races, regardless of how many ethnic people sit in the pews.

When I was in South America, I was floored that the Churches had near white Jesus's hanging on the walls, and the local peoples sat dark skinned idolizing a bastardization of the image of Gods son.

Manipulating a faith to further your version thereof, only to ensure it's survival, is fraud. The truth is hiden, the mistakes dismissed or swept under a rug, only to hide the faliblity of God, the lie. Saying homsexuals are not born that way is just another way of saying, "God does not make mistakes", this is how they deal with something that does not mesh with their beliefs. Hate. It may come as a peaceful sermon, but in the end, it is till hate. An abomination inthe eyes of God. Abomination, wow there's a tolerant word.

Immaculate, now is that just peachy. Virgin, even better. If it furthers the fraud. But if a woman that does not have sex today is artificialy inseminated, she is not an immaculate virgin. If she is gay, it's even worse.

When the church recognises that all men and woman are equal, and equal in the eyes of God, then the church will garner my respect. But as long as the church desides who is and is not going to heaven, it is a fraud and not worthy of my support.

Jesus died on the cross for ALL mankind, not the mankind the church picks and choses from.
 
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Dexter Sinister

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Oct 1, 2004
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But you haven't lost me yet:)
Good. I was pretty sure you were made of tougher stuff than that, nice to have it confirmed. I'm glad you told us a little about your personal trials too. We can see so little of who people really are in a place like this that it's far too easy to misunderstand and forget the caring and compassion that represents the best of our common humanity.


Take care Sanctus, and best wishes to you and yours.
 

Sassylassie

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Jan 31, 2006
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I rarely offer an opinion in topics that are about Spirituality and Philosophy but this is the forum section for such discussions so Sanctus has every right render his opinion. If someone isn't comfortable with » Christian Discussion they need not bother opening the thread. I like reading the topics that Sanctus puts forward and I enjoy the debates that take place, I don't respond because these issue are so over my head I have nothing to add.
 

Curiosity

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Jul 30, 2005
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Dear Bear

What a wonderful answer and there of course if much reason for your feelings about Catholicism - you have witnessed and experienced the exclusionary process the church does have - no doubt about it.

I too have been burned by the church and can barely contain my anger when I started to address Sanctus and then realized - he had absolutely nothing to do with my personal religious moments of hell.

We have to separate those who believe and those of us who are hurt - because unless we ever get the opportunity to address the people who have caused us direct pain - we are blaming innocent others who have no control with the church's teachings.

You have great reasons for your feelings and if Sanctus had not been here, you may never have had the feelings to write them down for us to also experience - nor the anger to prompt the feelings in the first place.

You are the kind of man who believes in justice - and misplaced justice against Sanctus is misdirected and lost. He cannot write any wrongs nor even defend them. The "clearing" for you Bear could be that you wrote that wonderful essay above....you have immense knowledge filed away in that head of yours.... I
hope other issues and/or people get you sharing even more with us.
 

Curiosity

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Jul 30, 2005
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I rarely offer an opinion in topics that are about Spirituality and Philosophy but this is the forum section for such discussions so Sanctus has every right render his opinion. If someone isn't comfortable with » Christian Discussion they need not bother opening the thread. I like reading the topics that Sanctus puts forward and I enjoy the debates that take place, I don't respond because these issue are so over my head I have nothing to add.

Sassy

You must be talking about some other member here - there is very little which escapes your great ability to observe and articulate. I cannot imagine anything which would be beyond your comprehension...ever.
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
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Thank you. I was in a "mood" yesterday, for a variety of personal reasons. It was, to say the least, an emotional roller-coaster day that, amongst other things, involves the potential death of a very close family member. Not an excuse, an explanation.As you wrote, even people of faith have those times when they think "enough is enough". I wiped out the personal post because it was not fair to harbour ill will to the perpetuator. Better instead to pray for them. I suspect this comment will invite a slew of new religious insults.So be it.

But you haven't lost me yet:)

Understood. It is unfortunate that personal attacks occur. It is good to see you don't intend to allow such behavior to silence you.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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Sanctus

You are far stronger than letting a cranky majority get to you - and I ask that you stay with it - because you only need one or two who appreciate what you write and how you think to be valued for your writing....

And I don't know why I should do this but I apologize for the silence of the "moderators". It is a loud and screaming silence is it not?

Thank you for your kind words. Generally a "cranky majority" do not get to me. Yesterday was just one of "those" types of day for me. In my vocation, especially the past few years, we become used to the howls of a mob demanding each individual be responsible for the behaviour of all 1 billion members of the Church.You develop a bit of a hard skin, but as you noted, a man is a man is a man after all!
 

sanctus

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Oct 27, 2006
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I rarely offer an opinion in topics that are about Spirituality and Philosophy but this is the forum section for such discussions so Sanctus has every right render his opinion. If someone isn't comfortable with » Christian Discussion they need not bother opening the thread. I like reading the topics that Sanctus puts forward and I enjoy the debates that take place, I don't respond because these issue are so over my head I have nothing to add.


If in any way I have given you the impression that your opinions would be of no value, please accept my heartfelt apologies. I enjoy reading the opinions of anyone who wishes to offer them.

It is true what you wrote, and sometimes since joining this forum a mystery to me. Namely, why some people would read a thread under a heading of something they are opposed to, in this case "Christian Discussions".

In fact, yesterday when one of the people complained at the frequency of the posts I made on a religious topic, I was a bit confused considering I am careful to place posts under the appropriate category. I thought "well, what in the hell should I put under the category of "Christian Discussions", Apple Sauce recipes??"
 

sanctus

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Oct 27, 2006
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Good. I was pretty sure you were made of tougher stuff than that, nice to have it confirmed. I'm glad you told us a little about your personal trials too. We can see so little of who people really are in a place like this that it's far too easy to misunderstand and forget the caring and compassion that represents the best of our common humanity.


Take care Sanctus, and best wishes to you and yours.


Thank you. The internet is the sort of place that sometimes does make us forget that on the other end of the words we are reading are actual human beings. Further, we can come across in one way that is not actually consistent with how we are in reality.
 

sanctus

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my respect. But as long as the church desides who is and is not going to heaven, it is a fraud and not worthy of my support.

Jesus died on the cross for ALL mankind, not the mankind the church picks and choses from.


I am deeply regretful that your experiences in the Church were less than positive for you. I wish I could open your eyes to the many blessed events that do take place with Church people every single day. All of us should remember that the Church is not the whole, but is experienced with each and every member. My regret is those you have encountered have soured you towards the whole.
 

sanctus

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Oct 27, 2006
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Very well, I will offer my apologies to sanctus, if he addresses the proof posted to him.

.

First off, we have been through this before. Your "proof" is your opinion, it is not my proof. I accept what the church teaches completely.I also refuse to debate Church doctrine. As I have told you a number of times, I accept all Church teaching without reservation or doubts. That you disagree with the doctrine of the Church is, if you'll permit me, your issue, not mine. It is not my individual place to reform you and bring you back to the Church.

As to your apology, one thing I will share from the teachings of the Church. Forgiveness and apologies are the sorts of things one either offers and accepts or does not. There are no conditions on these actions. You either apologize, in any situation, or you do not. For example, I would not call a man names, and than tell him later I would offer my apologies if he would accept the task of washing my car. Since that seems to be the nature of your apology, you needn't bother making the gesture.

Further, I do not require the apology in the first place.
 

sanctus

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Oct 27, 2006
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Dear Bear

What a wonderful answer and there of course if much reason for your feelings about Catholicism - you have witnessed and experienced the exclusionary process the church does have - no doubt about it.

I too have been burned by the church and can barely contain my anger when I started to address Sanctus and then realized - he had absolutely nothing to do with my personal religious moments of hell..


It is unfortunate that such events have happened so as to cause the Church to lose two of her children. How interesting it might be if, some day, you could reconcile with the Church and bring your experiences to her. I personally would enjoy having such strong and motivated people in any community I served. I well imagine both of you are the sort that would shake an old established parish up and make them confront the Jesus they proclaim with their mouths, an event I'd very much enjoy watching unfold! I have served in parishes where the older congreants seem to be of the opinion that nothing must ever change in their parishes. That is a problem I confront in my personal ministry all the time. I believe in members of the Church learning to actually believe in their hearts the phrases they let roll off their tongues. Frankly, I get very impatient with people who do not live their faith on a daily, constant basis, thinking it is something they just need to do when at Mass.
 

Sassylassie

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Jan 31, 2006
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If in any way I have given you the impression that your opinions would be of no value, please accept my heartfelt apologies. I enjoy reading the opinions of anyone who wishes to offer them.

It is true what you wrote, and sometimes since joining this forum a mystery to me. Namely, why some people would read a thread under a heading of something they are opposed to, in this case "Christian Discussions".

In fact, yesterday when one of the people complained at the frequency of the posts I made on a religious topic, I was a bit confused considering I am careful to place posts under the appropriate category. I thought "well, what in the hell should I put under the category of "Christian Discussions", Apple Sauce recipes??"

LOL I love the apple sauce analogy, any handy cooking tips Sanctus? Just kidding. Sanctus, no you haven't done anything to prevent me from posting here or insulted my opinion. I'm out of my depth with Religion and Philosophy (I'm surprised I can even spell it). I do enjoy reading the debates between you and Curio and Dex and the others who are educated in these areas. Keep up the good work.

I have a stupid religious question about communion waffers to ask you thou? I bought an pump organ from a RC church 20 years ago and it came with a lovely covered silver Holy Communion dish but it's full of the Blessed waffers and I'm scared to throw them out, can I feed them to the birds or mail them to you? What is the normal precedure to dispose of something that's been blessed by a Priest?
 

sanctus

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I have a stupid religious question about communion waffers to ask you thou? I bought an pump organ from a RC church 20 years ago and it came with a lovely covered silver Holy Communion dish but it's full of the Blessed waffers and I'm scared to throw them out, can I feed them to the birds or mail them to you? What is the normal precedure to dispose of something that's been blessed by a Priest?


What a lovely thing to have! I love organ music with a passion. Much prefer it to guitars in Church.

You are correct that it would be most improper to simply throw away the Blessed Sacrament. The best and most advised procedure would be to simply bury them in your garden, if you have one. In fact, when I served in the Philippines, many of the older people would bury a small statue of the Blessed Virgin with a Blessed Host in their gardens. Their beliefs were that such would make their gardens blossom.Hey, it certainly can't hurt!
 

Sassylassie

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Jan 31, 2006
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Thanks for anwering my question Sanctus, I've carried them all over Canada from Victoria to NFL they are well traveled Communion waffers. Oh yes I have a garden, and come spring I shall plant them with a rose bush. Thanks again.