Who's right to choose, a womans right to choose.

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
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Ontario
I can't believe all the people arguing that we the public should support their own child just because the Mrs had a right to an abortion. I'm simply amazed at the collective lack of responsibility; morally, legally and ethically of these arguments. I didn't conceive your child, you did. Get off your butt and do something to help your own kid and quit whining about it.
Whos is this "your" person?

Who says she would end up on welfare?

That's a pretty demeaning and damning generalization Kreskin, shame on you, being so derogatory towords women like that.

Not like us evil, morally and ethically bankrupt people that argue woman not only have the ablity, but the right to.

Shame on you indeed.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
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Ontario
Ugh, Morality and law are two different things. If the law was soley based on morality abortion would be illegal as well.

Great fact
That has got to be the worst example you have provided yet. You can do better.
I'm starting to think this is not the same Kreskin I came to an agreement with on a part of this problem. Logic and reason seems to be the strong suit of the other Kreskin.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
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Listen guys, defer the next purchase of weed, defer the purchase of your next GameBoy or computer game, don't go play pool with the boys tonight; take some responsibility for the helpless child you have helped bring into this world. Expecting the rest of us to pay for your sorry selfishness doesn't cut it.
 

Nikki

Free Thinker
Jul 6, 2006
326
2
18
calgary,ab
www.avonbynikki.com
I can't believe all the people arguing that we the public should support their own child just because the Mrs had a right to an abortion. I'm simply amazed at the collective lack of responsibility; morally, legally and ethically of these arguments. I didn't conceive your child, you did. Get off your butt and do something to help your own kid and quit whining about it.

So should abortion now be illegal as well as adoaption and orphanages since the public shouldn't be responsible for the child.

I do agree with you as far as morals go. And personally I hate that we have day care programs and child allowances because I don't believe that I should have to pay for someone else's child.

That beings said though I think you need to seperate the law and morals because they don't always match up despite you think they do. If that were true abortion would be illegal and the government would tell everyone involved to stop being lazy and take care of their own children.
 

Nikki

Free Thinker
Jul 6, 2006
326
2
18
calgary,ab
www.avonbynikki.com
Listen guys, defer the next purchase of weed, defer the purchase of your next GameBoy or computer game, don't go play pool with the boys tonight; take some responsibility for the helpless child you have helped bring into this world. Expecting the rest of us to pay for your sorry selfishness doesn't cut it.

Well that is a pretty prejudice statement if I have ever seen one. How do you know they don't want responsibility for their child because they would rather smoke weed. play computer or go out with the 'boys"


We already pay people for their children with our taxes. So you think it is ok that the rich get $1200/mnth for their children (assuming they have 2 or 3 kids) through the child allowance program but not if they choose they don't want a child? That doesn't make sense to me.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
Listen guys, defer the next purchase of weed, defer the purchase of your next GameBoy or computer game, don't go play pool with the boys tonight; take some responsibility for the helpless child you have helped bring into this world. Expecting the rest of us to pay for your sorry selfishness doesn't cut it.
Would you like some tissues to go with that emotion?
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
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So should abortion now be illegal as well as adoaption and orphanages since the public shouldn't be responsible for the child.

I do agree with you as far as morals go. And personally I hate that we have day care programs and child allowances because I don't believe that I should have to pay for someone else's child.

That beings said though I think you need to seperate the law and morals because they don't always match up despite you think they do. If that were true abortion would be illegal and the government would tell everyone involved to stop being lazy and take care of their own children.
The only reason abortion is legal is because slavery isn't. Our society detests it but understands such a right has to be a necessary evil. It is not a desirable or promoted outcome. For many women such an idea isn't even remotely possible. Just because it can be done isn't close to meaning it is anywhere near being the right thing to do. Therefore, that aspect of this debate is completely meaningless. It has no relevance in the slightest. Not one iota of relevance. Women aren't expected to abort a pregnancy because someone else decides they are irresponsible. A baby isn't expected to live in the gutter because dad decided he was irresponsible.
 

Nikki

Free Thinker
Jul 6, 2006
326
2
18
calgary,ab
www.avonbynikki.com
The only reason abortion is legal is because slavery isn't. Our society detests it but understands such a right has to be a necessary evil. It is not a desirable or promoted outcome. For many women such an idea isn't even remotely possible. Just because it can be done isn't close to meaning it is anywhere near being the right thing to do.

THERE YA GO! This is what people are saying. Men being able to opt out is moraly reprehenable but it should be their right to do so. Women have the right to opt out so should men in the eyes of the law.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
149
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THERE YA GO! This is what people are saying. Men being able to opt out is moraly reprehenable but it should be their right to do so. Women have the right to opt out so should men in the eyes of the law.

Comparing slavery to responsibility is utter nonsense.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
149
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No your emotional opinion and tripe is nonsense.

Well my emotional tripe is supported by the law, by society as a whole, and even those who choose to be irresponsible claim it morally and ethically sound.

So again, guys get off your lazy butts and become men or the law will enforce it for you.
 

Outta here

Senate Member
Jul 8, 2005
6,778
158
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Edmonton AB
Damn near 30 pages to this thread and nothing anyone has said has convinced me that the male is completely devoid of responsibility to help provide for any child that he fathers. Many have repeatedly stated, as have I, that the only - and I do mean ONLY - responsibility the courts force them take on is to contribute to the financial well being of a child.

The amount of money males actually contribute to the raising of their children in no way covers the actual cost of raising them. This is only a very small aspect of what a child needs from his parent. I beleive that any child needs what both parents can contribute to their upbringing... in some cases there are wonderful grandparents and other family involved in the child's life to provide that role modeling that is so needed - without input from a loving male parent, this has to be addressed by some other family member... yet another responsiblity abdicated by run away dads and left for others to pick up... And what about the other needs of the child - the nurturing, the being there for them 24/7 hours a day, the constant putting their needs first, the worrying about their well being, the endless sleepless nights spent trying to figure out how to stretch the paltry amount of child support to cover extras that pop up that can never be pre- anticipated, issues such as affordable, yet decent child care while the mother works... and yes ... most of us DO work to support our children. The caring for them while they're ill, worrying about job stability if your child needs you to take too much time off to care for them due to a lengthy illness.. these needs the mother takes care of can never have a price placed on them.

The price a woman pays far far far exceeds the piddly amounts of money that come off a man's paycheck... in this way, women already DO accept responsibility for their choice to keep that child. Their lives are changed forever, and most welcome this change, but rest assured, it's no picnic...

Another point I've not seen addressed yet is the men who think they want to be a father, and participate in the decision to keep the child, but find out 6 months or a year into it that it's really not what they want, and then bail out of the fathering role. The stance that they're not responsible financially or in any other way when they jointly decided to have that child... what about these guys?

If you want to separate the moral from the legal here, that's just ridiuclous, since most laws have some basis in morality. More learned minds than yours or mine have disected this issue and come up with the best possible solution... to hold men ONLY accountable financially... and even then... only somewhat responsible financially. I cannot help but see any other point of view as a push to allow men to have all the sex they want, with absolutely no personal accountability for the consequences. No matter how ya slice it, that's just how it comes off, and likely why the courts don't entertain any laws to support that stance.

IMO, the men that turn their backs on their children already are getting off easy. The bottom line is if a guy wants to avoid such consequences, there's only one sure fire way to ensure he doesn't get caught with his pants down... and that's by keeping them zipped up.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
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THERE YA GO! This is what people are saying. Men being able to opt out is moraly reprehenable but it should be their right to do so. Women have the right to opt out so should men in the eyes of the law.

Opting out of responsibility is somehow equal to opting out of being a physical slave? What the hell do either of these have to do with each other? I don't think you get it. The right to an abortion is simply a right not to be a physical slave. Nothing more. There is no expectation to have one. It is not a desired outcome. The law doesn't expect a woman or a child to give up other rights because she has right not to be a slave. She doesn't have this right because it is a means of birth control. The law does not look at this right from the birth control perpsective. It is allowed only because she has a right not to be a slave. If some women choose it for birth control, there isn't much we can do about it. For the millions of others that would never in a million years exercise this right under any circumstances, their children don't automatically lose their rights and the fathers don't automatically receive free deadbeat passes.
 

Nikki

Free Thinker
Jul 6, 2006
326
2
18
calgary,ab
www.avonbynikki.com
Opting out of responsibility is somehow equal to opting out of being a physical slave? What the hell do either of these have to do with each other? I don't think you get it. The right to an abortion is simply a right not to be a physical slave. Nothing more. There is no expectation to have one. It is not a desired outcome. The law doesn't expect a woman or a child to give up other rights because she has right not to be a slave. She doesn't have this right because it is a means of birth control. The law does not look at this right from the birth control perpsective. It is allowed only because she has a right not to be a slave. If some women choose it for birth control, there isn't much we can do about it. For the millions of others that would never in a million years exercise this right under any circumstances, their children don't automatically lose their rights and the fathers don't automatically receive free deadbeat passes.

A physical slave this is what you call pregnancy nice. Accidents happen sure. And I am personally pro choice. But I think males should have equal rights.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
149
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A physical slave this is what you call pregnancy nice. Accidents happen sure. And I am personally pro choice. But I think males should have equal rights.

Being pregnant isn't a slave. Forcing birth is slavery.

Are you aware that Canada has outlawed abortion in the past? The Supreme Court didn't overrule those laws because it was a good birth control choice. The issue is much deeper than that.


Abortion is not a crime in Canada. But it is an area of the law where, beyond that simple fact, the waters are very murky. In a nutshell, the Supreme Court of Canada said that the section of the Criminal Code which made abortion a crime was of no force or effect so it is as if that section did not exist. The Supreme Court can overrule Parliament when the latter's laws are incompatible with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. That was the case here.

Behaviour in Canada can only be criminal if a federal law specifically prohibits it.
Section 287 of the Criminal Code became law in 1969.
The Charter of Rights and Freedoms followed in 1982.
The Code made it a criminal offence to "procure a miscarriage." Section 287 says that every one who, with intent to procure the miscarriage of a female person, uses drugs, instruments or manipulation of any kind, for the purpose of carrying out their intention, is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for life. The Code exempted doctors from criminal liability if a hospital abortion committee was prepared to sign a statement to the effect that the "continuation of the pregnancy of the female person would or would likely to endanger (the pregnant woman's) life or health."

Section 7 of the Charter says that "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice."
Dr. Henry Mortgentaler, through his attempts at establishing abortion clinics in a variety of Canadian provinces, forced the issue of the lawfulness of section 287 of the Criminal Code.

The issue came to a judicial head in 1988, when the Supreme Court ruled that section 287 of the Code offended section 7 of the Charter, and that the former was therefore of no force or effect.
"Forcing a woman," wrote the Chief Justice, Brian Dickson, "by threat of criminal sanction to carry a foetus to term unless she meets certain criteria unrelated to her own priorities and aspirations, is a profound interference with a woman's body and this a violation of her security of the person."
There were to be other legal challenges.

An Albertan, Joseph Borowski asked the high court to rule that abortions violated the foetus' right to life and equality under section 7 of the Charter. The Saskatchewan Court of Appeal ruled that a foetus was not a person capable of claiming rights under the Charter. Borowski's case never made it to the Supreme Court as the decision in Mortgentaler made the issue in Borowski's appeal moot.

The issue of the rights of the foetus reached the Supreme Court when, in 1989, a Quebec man succeeded in getting an injunction from a Quebec court to prevent his former partner from aborting her foetus. The Court sidestepped the question of foetal rights under the Charter by deciding that the foetus was not a "person" under Quebec's Civil Code.

A legislative vacuum of sorts was created.

Nova Scotia tried to write a law which prevented abortions except at certified hospitals. The provincial act was ruled invalid as an encroachment on criminal law powers that is reserved to the federal government.
When she was prime minister, Kim Campbell tabled a bill to bring back a form of criminal law control over abortions. The bill survived a close vote in the House of Commons on May 29, 1990, (140 to 131) but was defeated in the Senate by a rare tie vote (43 to 43) on January 31, 1991.

Therefore, since the Mortgentaler decision, there is no Canadian criminal law which addresses abortion.
The Liberal government in Ottawa has made it clear that it will not introduce amendments to the Criminal Code with respect to abortion.

A recent development (November, 1996) involves a pregnant Ottawa woman, Brenda Drummond, who tried to kill herself or her foetus by discharging a pellet gun into her vagina. The pellet lodged into the foetus' head and the baby was born alive a few days later. Emergency surgery saved it's life when an x-ray revealed the pellet in the child's head. Attempted murder charges were brought under section 223 of the Criminal Code which says that "a person commits homicide when he causes injury to a child before or during its birth as a result of which the child dies after becoming a human being." The same section defines a "human being ... when it has completely proceeded, in a living state, from the body of its mother whether or not it has completely breathed, it has an independent circulation or the navel string is severed." Defence lawyers are saying that this was merely a failed abortion which, as explained above, is no longer a crime in Canada.

http://www.duhaime.org/family/ca-abor.aspx

The right to an abortion is a legal anomally. Historically Canadians have legislated against it but have now come to terms with the difference between outlawing it and not. If an abortion can be outlawed then so can just about any physical right. If an abortion can be denied so can your right to live in a free society if legislators decide that for you. This doesn't mean Canadians see it as a viable option for everyone. It is not expected that everyone exercise the right, consider to use, or be required to lose other rights if such a procedure is not elected. It just simply isn't a crime, like it's not a crime to fall down a flight of stairs and miscarry. No one expects a woman to fall down a flight of stairs or face the consequences of her baby's father having no responsibility to his child, just because she can.
 

Nikki

Free Thinker
Jul 6, 2006
326
2
18
calgary,ab
www.avonbynikki.com
I am aware of our history thanks. It still doesn't change my position. If a women can opt out so can a man. Noone is focing a women to give birth. You guys keep saying "noone forced the male to have sex" well noone forced a female to have sex either.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
149
63
I am aware of our history thanks. It still doesn't change my position. If a women can opt out so can a man. Noone is focing a women to give birth. You guys keep saying "noone forced the male to have sex" well noone forced a female to have sex either.

Then since a woman can elect to fall down a flight of stairs and miscarry then our public education system will provide no services to single parent kids. Why should I pay for anyone's kid? You know why? It isn't the kids fault. AHA! Notice the kids interests, not the poorly handled attempt at mom falling down stairs. We have a responsibility to our children. We, the public, have a responsibility to everyone's children in public education no matter what. The same goes for the father. He has responsibility to provide for his own children no matter what the prior circumstances are. The kid's interests are what matters, not any of the prior circumstances.