I think it's hard to jump to conclusions here without knowing the specifics. If they were in the aisle prostrating on prayer mats and the whole 9 yards then I would think that lacks common sense and they shouldn't be surprised if they were told to stop. If they in fact said them in the terminal before boarding like another poster claims, then there was no reason to throw them off.
Group of praying imams ordered off American flight
- Thread starter Blackleaf
- Start date
I just watched the local news and just about everyone is in agreement that forcefully removing those imams was a severe over reaction. Such profiling is generally not favored here and many are very uncomfortable with the actions taken.
Get this -- the airlines have now offered a refund to the imams. That should settle it.
Nice move!
Nice move!
Well all the dates they'd want to travel on are probably blacked out...
"What's in your wallet?":laughing7:
Thanks for the update Thomaska - well that makes more sense I guess...
So: Imams = 3..... American Airlines = 00 As in Oh Oh !!!
So: Imams = 3..... American Airlines = 00 As in Oh Oh !!!
In our prayers we do not say that God is good and all other faiths are false. We pray to god. Allah Ak Bar.
You cannot delay a prayer. Every pray is important you can reschedule them for a few hours and such but an evening pray is an evening pray.
I do think it is kind of silly for the Imams to do such actions especially if they were headed somewhere and it would take many actions, however, it is their right as religious freedom.
Forgiveness
I thought about this situation today and have changed my view on the subject. There is too much hate in society and we in the Twin Cities area are especially conscious of animosities that exist among varying peoples. Many of us sincerely want to end all such difficulties.
Initially, I was hoping that these imams would sue the airlines for lots of money and said so above. But that wouldn't solve anything except pander to a few people who like to see others punished for what well could have been an honest mistake. It would also be an "affirmation" that Muslims are vindictive.
Therefore, I ask that the imams to adhere the Koran's many teachings about forgiveness. Just one quote:
Turn away evil by what is better, and lo! he between whom and thyself was enmity, shall be as though he were a warm friend
Koran, Sura 41, Line 35
If such a public act is applied with genuine warmth, it will go a long way towards healings at least some of the enmity that exists in our society.
I thought about this situation today and have changed my view on the subject. There is too much hate in society and we in the Twin Cities area are especially conscious of animosities that exist among varying peoples. Many of us sincerely want to end all such difficulties.
Initially, I was hoping that these imams would sue the airlines for lots of money and said so above. But that wouldn't solve anything except pander to a few people who like to see others punished for what well could have been an honest mistake. It would also be an "affirmation" that Muslims are vindictive.
Therefore, I ask that the imams to adhere the Koran's many teachings about forgiveness. Just one quote:
Turn away evil by what is better, and lo! he between whom and thyself was enmity, shall be as though he were a warm friend
Koran, Sura 41, Line 35
If such a public act is applied with genuine warmth, it will go a long way towards healings at least some of the enmity that exists in our society.
This is from an e-mail - my Jordanian friend who was on some kind of a list. It looks like a news report but it wasn't supplied. Maybe it will clear up what happened.
Incident began with message from passenger
Wednesday Nov. 22, 2006
A police report shed new light on what caused passengers to become suspicious of six Islamic clerics who were subsequently removed from a flight departing the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport on Monday.
Read witness statements to the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport's police department
Read officer statements from the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport police department's incident report
"People are scared of us," Imam Mohamed Ibrahim said Wednesday after viewing a copy of the 24-page airport police report.
According to the report, Ibrahim and five other Muslim religious leaders were removed from the Phoenix-bound flight after a passenger slipped a note to the pilot that described six "suspicious Arabic men spread out in their seats."
Two of the men were sitting in the front, two in the middle and two near the back of the plane, according to the police report.
"All were together, saying " .... Allah ... Allah ..." cursing U.S. involvement with Saddam Hussein before the flight," read a note a passenger sent to the pilot.
But Ibrahim said Wednesday that the men only said Allah when they recited their prayers before boarding the flight. Ibrahim was one of three of the men who said the sunset prayer in the terminal before boarding the flight.
"In the traditional way of making prayers as Muslims, the imam in every movement says Allahu akbar, Allahu akbar," Ibrahim said. "I think (the notewriter) misunderstood the Muslim prayers."
Ibrahim also denied discussing Iraq or anything about Saddam or U.S. involvement in Iraq.
"During my conversations with the imams, we never talked about that at all," said Ibrahim, a 31-year-old, bearded man, originally from Egypt. "We were talking about the results of the conference. We're talking about our community. I found somebody among the group, I didn't know him before. He's from Egypt, I'm from Egypt, I was asking him about his village, his city."
Ibrahim also said the men's seating arrangements were incidental.
The six were among about 155 imams who attended the North American Imams Federation's annual meeting in Minneapolis last weekend. Ibrahim said he didn't even know he would be on the same flight with the men from the Phoenix area until they started talking on the hotel shuttle bus that morning.
Behavior caused suspicion
When the pilot received the passenger's note, he requested airport security remove the six men from the plane, the police report said.
The airport police and a U.S. federal marshal agreed the seating configuration, the fact that three of the men had one-way tickets and no checked luggage and the praying in the gate area was suspicious, the report said.
Patrick Hogan, the airport's spokesman, said it's common practice for airport police to contact federal authorities when there's a security concern.
In this case, he said, the FBI asked police to detain the six men.
The men were handcuffed and taken to the airport police station, where they were questioned by the FBI, the Secret Service, U.S. Marshals and Transportation and Security Administration officials.
Ibrahim said the men were questioned by federal authorities separately.
Ibrahim said his bags were taken to a separate area and he didn't know if they were searched. Federal officials asked him to hand over everything in his pocket -- including his wallet and cell phone.
During the interview, Ibrahim was asked about the conference, and what he did before leaving the hotel and arriving at the airport.
Federal authorities also told Ibrahim they heard the men had been discussing the safety of President Bush.
"I told him we didn't even mention his name in our discussion," Ibrahim said.
After about six hours, the authorities apologized to the men and released them.
No charges were filed.
Meanwhile, police took written accounts from passengers and crew members aboard the plane.
According to those statements, listed in the airport police report:
* A ticket agent at the gate found it suspicious that the men were so loud as they recited their prayers in the terminal.
* A flight attendant became suspicious when one of the imams seated in first class requested a seat belt extension, because he wasn't "overly heavy." Shortly after that, two imams seated in seats 9C and 9D also requested extensions. The flight attendant also mentioned that the imam in first class got up several times after boarding to go talk to other imams seated farther back on the plane.
* A flight attendant who was flying as a passenger on the plane saw the three men praying in the gate area, but "didn't think this was too unusual." Once on the plane, however, the flight attendant thought it was unusual that two of the imams seated in front of her asked for seat belt extensions, because they did not seem to need them. "Then the imam in (first class) came back and spoke to them in Arabic," the flight attendant wrote. "This is when it just did not seem right."
* A passenger who sat next to Ibrahim wrote that she travels to Turkey frequently and knows many Muslims, but the behavior of the six imams was "atypical."
She said some of the men engaged in "aggressive eye contact" with her when she watched them pray in the terminal before boarding the flight.
The woman said she talked with Ibrahim and the "he expressed views I consider to be extreme fundamentalist Muslim views." Ibrahim discussed the problems of governments that did not follow Islamic law, the woman said. Ibrahim said Turkey repressed Muslims and Turkey and Egypt should be operating under Islamic law.
She also wrote that Ibrahim "indicated that it was necessary to go to whatever measures necessary to obey all that's set out in the Quran."
Suspicion refuted, not condemned
Ibrahim said he told the woman sitting next to him that Turkey was a secular country and "the secular system is not a very good system."
His comments about obeying what is set forth in the Quran only had to do with living a complete life, which included a government run by Islamic law, he said.
Ibrahim said he did not request a seat belt extension, but said the men who did needed them because they're overweight.
"It's very normal for them. They are fat," he said. "But the rest of the thin people like me, we didn't ask for one."
One of the men who requested a seat belt extension is 6 feet 1 inch tall and weighs 206 pounds, according to the report. The other was 6 feet tall and weighs 200 pounds.
Ibrahim had a roundtrip ticket and did not know which of the other imams had one-way tickets or why.
Despite what happened, Ibrahim said he symphathizes with Americans who are concerned about safety on their flights.
"I feel compassionate with the American people in this country when they go to the airplane and they feel scared, skeptical about every motion, about everybody," he said. "They are afraid all the time."
Ibrahim said he is more upset with US Airways for refusing to reissue the men tickets or even allow thenm to purchase a new ticket to fly home.
US Airways did not return calls Wednesday seeking comment.
But according to ABC News, the airline's policy after a security incident is to put the passengers involved on another airline.
Incident began with message from passenger
Wednesday Nov. 22, 2006
A police report shed new light on what caused passengers to become suspicious of six Islamic clerics who were subsequently removed from a flight departing the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport on Monday.
Read witness statements to the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport's police department
Read officer statements from the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport police department's incident report
"People are scared of us," Imam Mohamed Ibrahim said Wednesday after viewing a copy of the 24-page airport police report.
According to the report, Ibrahim and five other Muslim religious leaders were removed from the Phoenix-bound flight after a passenger slipped a note to the pilot that described six "suspicious Arabic men spread out in their seats."
Two of the men were sitting in the front, two in the middle and two near the back of the plane, according to the police report.
"All were together, saying " .... Allah ... Allah ..." cursing U.S. involvement with Saddam Hussein before the flight," read a note a passenger sent to the pilot.
But Ibrahim said Wednesday that the men only said Allah when they recited their prayers before boarding the flight. Ibrahim was one of three of the men who said the sunset prayer in the terminal before boarding the flight.
"In the traditional way of making prayers as Muslims, the imam in every movement says Allahu akbar, Allahu akbar," Ibrahim said. "I think (the notewriter) misunderstood the Muslim prayers."
Ibrahim also denied discussing Iraq or anything about Saddam or U.S. involvement in Iraq.
"During my conversations with the imams, we never talked about that at all," said Ibrahim, a 31-year-old, bearded man, originally from Egypt. "We were talking about the results of the conference. We're talking about our community. I found somebody among the group, I didn't know him before. He's from Egypt, I'm from Egypt, I was asking him about his village, his city."
Ibrahim also said the men's seating arrangements were incidental.
The six were among about 155 imams who attended the North American Imams Federation's annual meeting in Minneapolis last weekend. Ibrahim said he didn't even know he would be on the same flight with the men from the Phoenix area until they started talking on the hotel shuttle bus that morning.
Behavior caused suspicion
When the pilot received the passenger's note, he requested airport security remove the six men from the plane, the police report said.
The airport police and a U.S. federal marshal agreed the seating configuration, the fact that three of the men had one-way tickets and no checked luggage and the praying in the gate area was suspicious, the report said.
Patrick Hogan, the airport's spokesman, said it's common practice for airport police to contact federal authorities when there's a security concern.
In this case, he said, the FBI asked police to detain the six men.
The men were handcuffed and taken to the airport police station, where they were questioned by the FBI, the Secret Service, U.S. Marshals and Transportation and Security Administration officials.
Ibrahim said the men were questioned by federal authorities separately.
Ibrahim said his bags were taken to a separate area and he didn't know if they were searched. Federal officials asked him to hand over everything in his pocket -- including his wallet and cell phone.
During the interview, Ibrahim was asked about the conference, and what he did before leaving the hotel and arriving at the airport.
Federal authorities also told Ibrahim they heard the men had been discussing the safety of President Bush.
"I told him we didn't even mention his name in our discussion," Ibrahim said.
After about six hours, the authorities apologized to the men and released them.
No charges were filed.
Meanwhile, police took written accounts from passengers and crew members aboard the plane.
According to those statements, listed in the airport police report:
* A ticket agent at the gate found it suspicious that the men were so loud as they recited their prayers in the terminal.
* A flight attendant became suspicious when one of the imams seated in first class requested a seat belt extension, because he wasn't "overly heavy." Shortly after that, two imams seated in seats 9C and 9D also requested extensions. The flight attendant also mentioned that the imam in first class got up several times after boarding to go talk to other imams seated farther back on the plane.
* A flight attendant who was flying as a passenger on the plane saw the three men praying in the gate area, but "didn't think this was too unusual." Once on the plane, however, the flight attendant thought it was unusual that two of the imams seated in front of her asked for seat belt extensions, because they did not seem to need them. "Then the imam in (first class) came back and spoke to them in Arabic," the flight attendant wrote. "This is when it just did not seem right."
* A passenger who sat next to Ibrahim wrote that she travels to Turkey frequently and knows many Muslims, but the behavior of the six imams was "atypical."
She said some of the men engaged in "aggressive eye contact" with her when she watched them pray in the terminal before boarding the flight.
The woman said she talked with Ibrahim and the "he expressed views I consider to be extreme fundamentalist Muslim views." Ibrahim discussed the problems of governments that did not follow Islamic law, the woman said. Ibrahim said Turkey repressed Muslims and Turkey and Egypt should be operating under Islamic law.
She also wrote that Ibrahim "indicated that it was necessary to go to whatever measures necessary to obey all that's set out in the Quran."
Suspicion refuted, not condemned
Ibrahim said he told the woman sitting next to him that Turkey was a secular country and "the secular system is not a very good system."
His comments about obeying what is set forth in the Quran only had to do with living a complete life, which included a government run by Islamic law, he said.
Ibrahim said he did not request a seat belt extension, but said the men who did needed them because they're overweight.
"It's very normal for them. They are fat," he said. "But the rest of the thin people like me, we didn't ask for one."
One of the men who requested a seat belt extension is 6 feet 1 inch tall and weighs 206 pounds, according to the report. The other was 6 feet tall and weighs 200 pounds.
Ibrahim had a roundtrip ticket and did not know which of the other imams had one-way tickets or why.
Despite what happened, Ibrahim said he symphathizes with Americans who are concerned about safety on their flights.
"I feel compassionate with the American people in this country when they go to the airplane and they feel scared, skeptical about every motion, about everybody," he said. "They are afraid all the time."
Ibrahim said he is more upset with US Airways for refusing to reissue the men tickets or even allow thenm to purchase a new ticket to fly home.
US Airways did not return calls Wednesday seeking comment.
But according to ABC News, the airline's policy after a security incident is to put the passengers involved on another airline.
An update on the woe atlas it's me of the six Imams, it appears the ring leader isn't quite the innocent. After reading this article I'd say it was a publicity stunt, tisk tisk.
A Profiling In Courage
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INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY
Posted 11/22/2006
Homeland Security: Kudos to US Airways. Risking fines and a boycott, it did the right thing this week by removing a group of Muslim men from a flight to protect its crew and passengers.
By most accounts, the six bearded men were behaving suspiciously at a time when airports were on high alert for sky terror during the holidays. "There were a number of things that gave the flight crew pause," an airline spokesman said. According to witnesses and police reports, the men:
• Made anti-American statements.
• Made a scene of praying and chanting "Allah."
• Asked for seat-belt extensions even though a flight attendant thought they didn't need them.
• Refused requests by the pilot to disembark for more screening.
Also, three of the men had only one-way tickets and no checked baggage.
Police had to forcibly remove the men from the flight, whereupon they were taken into custody. A search found no weapons or explosives, and they were released to continue on their journey.
Within hours, the men enlisted a Muslim-rights group to make a stink in the press, insisting they were merely imams returning home from an Islamic conference in Minneapolis. They say they were "harassed" because of their faith.
But were they victims or provocateurs?
All six claim to be Americans, so clearly they were aware of heightened security. Surely they knew that groups of Muslim men flying together while praying to Allah fit the modus operandi of the 9/11 hijackers and would make a pilot nervous. Throw in anti-U.S. remarks and odd demands about seat belts, and they might as well have yelled, "Bomb!"
Yet they chose to make a spectacle. Why? Turns out among those attending their conference was Rep.-elect Keith Ellison, D-Minn., who will be the first Muslim sworn into Congress (with his hand on the Quran). Two days earlier, Ellison, an African-American convert who wants to criminalize Muslim profiling, spoke at a fundraiser for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the Muslim-rights group that wasted no time condemning US Airways for "prejudice and ignorance."
CAIR wants congressional hearings to investigate other incidents of "flying while Muslim." Incoming Judiciary Chairman John Con-yers, D-Mich., has already drafted a resolution, borrowing from CAIR rhetoric, that gives Muslims special civil-rights protections.
While it's not immediately clear whether the incident was a stunt to help give the new Democratic majority cover to criminalize airport profiling, it wouldn't be the first time Muslim passengers have tried to prove "Islamophobia" — or test nerves and security.
Two years ago a dozen Syrian men caused panic aboard a Northwest Airlines flight by passing bags to each other as they used the lavatory. As the plane prepared to land, they rushed to the back and front of the plane speaking in Arabic.
Then there's the case of Muhammed al-Qudhaieen and Hamdan al-Shalawi, two Arizona college students removed from an America West flight after twice trying to open the cockpit. The FBI suspected it was a dry run for the 9/11 hijackings, according to the 9/11 Commission Report. One of the students had traveled to Afghanistan. Another became a material witness in the 9/11 investigation.
Even so, the pair filed racial-profiling suits against America West, now part of US Airways. Defending them was none other than the leader of the six imams kicked off the US Airways flight this week.
Turns out the students attended the Tucson, Ariz., mosque of Sheikh Omar Shahin, a Jordan native. Shahin has been the protesters' public face, even returning to the US Airways ticket counter at the Minneapolis airport to scold agents before the cameras.
In an Arizona Republic interview after 9/11, he acknowledged once supporting Osama bin Laden through his mosque in Tucson. FBI investigators believe bin Laden set up a base in Tucson.
Hani Hanjour, who piloted the plane that hit the Pentagon, attended the Tucson mosque along with bin Laden's onetime personal secretary, according to the 9/11 Commission Report. Bin Laden's ex-logistics chief was president of the mosque before Shahin took over.
"These people don't continue to come back to Arizona because they like the sunshine or they like the state," said FBI agent Kenneth Williams. "Something was established there, and it's been there for a long time." And Shahin appears to be in the middle of it.
CAIR asserts the imams are peace-loving patriots. "It's inappropriate to treat religious leaders that way," a spokesman said.
Yeah, they all wear halos. Omar Abdul-Rahman, a blind sheikh, is serving a life term for plotting to blow up several New York landmarks. Imam Ali al-Timimi, a native Washingtonian, is also behind bars for soliciting local Muslims to kill fellow Americans. Imams in New York were recently busted for buying shoulder-fired missiles. Another in Lodi, Calif., planned an al-Qaida terror camp there.
We could go on and on. Imams or not, US Airways did right by its customers. Shahin is calling on Muslims to boycott the airline; that might actually work in its favor. US Airways has been flooded with calls from Americans saying it just became the safest airline.
A Profiling In Courage
var tcdacmd="sa=a;sz=3;ad";http://anad.tacoda.net/ads/ad13984a-map.cgi/SZ=300X250A/V=2.0S/BRC=51501/BCPG60545.88380.100179/
INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY
Posted 11/22/2006
Homeland Security: Kudos to US Airways. Risking fines and a boycott, it did the right thing this week by removing a group of Muslim men from a flight to protect its crew and passengers.
By most accounts, the six bearded men were behaving suspiciously at a time when airports were on high alert for sky terror during the holidays. "There were a number of things that gave the flight crew pause," an airline spokesman said. According to witnesses and police reports, the men:
• Made anti-American statements.
• Made a scene of praying and chanting "Allah."
• Asked for seat-belt extensions even though a flight attendant thought they didn't need them.
• Refused requests by the pilot to disembark for more screening.
Also, three of the men had only one-way tickets and no checked baggage.
Police had to forcibly remove the men from the flight, whereupon they were taken into custody. A search found no weapons or explosives, and they were released to continue on their journey.
Within hours, the men enlisted a Muslim-rights group to make a stink in the press, insisting they were merely imams returning home from an Islamic conference in Minneapolis. They say they were "harassed" because of their faith.
But were they victims or provocateurs?
All six claim to be Americans, so clearly they were aware of heightened security. Surely they knew that groups of Muslim men flying together while praying to Allah fit the modus operandi of the 9/11 hijackers and would make a pilot nervous. Throw in anti-U.S. remarks and odd demands about seat belts, and they might as well have yelled, "Bomb!"
Yet they chose to make a spectacle. Why? Turns out among those attending their conference was Rep.-elect Keith Ellison, D-Minn., who will be the first Muslim sworn into Congress (with his hand on the Quran). Two days earlier, Ellison, an African-American convert who wants to criminalize Muslim profiling, spoke at a fundraiser for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the Muslim-rights group that wasted no time condemning US Airways for "prejudice and ignorance."
CAIR wants congressional hearings to investigate other incidents of "flying while Muslim." Incoming Judiciary Chairman John Con-yers, D-Mich., has already drafted a resolution, borrowing from CAIR rhetoric, that gives Muslims special civil-rights protections.
While it's not immediately clear whether the incident was a stunt to help give the new Democratic majority cover to criminalize airport profiling, it wouldn't be the first time Muslim passengers have tried to prove "Islamophobia" — or test nerves and security.
Two years ago a dozen Syrian men caused panic aboard a Northwest Airlines flight by passing bags to each other as they used the lavatory. As the plane prepared to land, they rushed to the back and front of the plane speaking in Arabic.
Then there's the case of Muhammed al-Qudhaieen and Hamdan al-Shalawi, two Arizona college students removed from an America West flight after twice trying to open the cockpit. The FBI suspected it was a dry run for the 9/11 hijackings, according to the 9/11 Commission Report. One of the students had traveled to Afghanistan. Another became a material witness in the 9/11 investigation.
Even so, the pair filed racial-profiling suits against America West, now part of US Airways. Defending them was none other than the leader of the six imams kicked off the US Airways flight this week.
Turns out the students attended the Tucson, Ariz., mosque of Sheikh Omar Shahin, a Jordan native. Shahin has been the protesters' public face, even returning to the US Airways ticket counter at the Minneapolis airport to scold agents before the cameras.
In an Arizona Republic interview after 9/11, he acknowledged once supporting Osama bin Laden through his mosque in Tucson. FBI investigators believe bin Laden set up a base in Tucson.
Hani Hanjour, who piloted the plane that hit the Pentagon, attended the Tucson mosque along with bin Laden's onetime personal secretary, according to the 9/11 Commission Report. Bin Laden's ex-logistics chief was president of the mosque before Shahin took over.
"These people don't continue to come back to Arizona because they like the sunshine or they like the state," said FBI agent Kenneth Williams. "Something was established there, and it's been there for a long time." And Shahin appears to be in the middle of it.
CAIR asserts the imams are peace-loving patriots. "It's inappropriate to treat religious leaders that way," a spokesman said.
Yeah, they all wear halos. Omar Abdul-Rahman, a blind sheikh, is serving a life term for plotting to blow up several New York landmarks. Imam Ali al-Timimi, a native Washingtonian, is also behind bars for soliciting local Muslims to kill fellow Americans. Imams in New York were recently busted for buying shoulder-fired missiles. Another in Lodi, Calif., planned an al-Qaida terror camp there.
We could go on and on. Imams or not, US Airways did right by its customers. Shahin is calling on Muslims to boycott the airline; that might actually work in its favor. US Airways has been flooded with calls from Americans saying it just became the safest airline.
A guy on television remarked that many priests or nuns or other clerics say prayers or do the rosary while on board an aircraft -
Yup - but Christians and Jews did not fly planes into the WTC and two other locations.
Yup - but Christians and Jews did not fly planes into the WTC and two other locations.
I actually understand this point believe it or not:wave: , but the problem is so do the terrorists. I'm sure they know that dressing or acting in a way that makes us think of extremist muslims will bring suspicions on them. Isn't it more likely they would do everything they could to blend in?