Veiled teacher is facing the sack.

[gopher]

When in Rome,do as the romans do.


As I mentioned previously, according to reknowned British scholar Marmaduke Pickthall (world's foremost authority on Islam), Muslims must adjust to the moral standards of the society in which they find themselves. Islam does NOT have the authority to impose its standards on that society as Mohammed never did so.

Again, this young lady needs to actually read what Mohammed had to say rather than to allow others to dicate to her how to think or act. There is absolutely no basis for believing that she cannot work in the presence of men or that having her face exposed constitutes immodesty or public error. If Mohammed was here, he would say would I just wrote.

 

[annabattler]

It seems to me that you cannot have it "both ways".
If you immigrate to a secular country, you are expected to abide by the laws of that country, and by the cultural mores of that country...that,of course,does not preclude your right to practice your own religion.
There are many Sikhs who have shaved their beards and cut their hair...and still feel very "Sikh"...it's called "adapting" to their new country.
The Catholic "mantilla" example cannot equate to the burka example...Catholic women still wear a mantilla, but to church only...their covered heads being seen as a sign of respect.
Certain aspects of the Muslim religion make me uncomfortable(as do certain aspects of Jehovah Witness,Mormonism,Catholicism,etc.)...partly because I don't understand it well enough,I suppose..partly because I'm Canadian born and raised and am not used to such outward expressions of "faith". It seems to me that the matter of religious belief is between oneself and one's God, and not something to be imposed on others,either by one's dress or by public oration.

 

[northstar]

I posted already in the other Burka thread, but I have to comment about the Nudity which is the focus of Earth's logic.

Here are children that are entitled to an education, and this woman has a muffled voice, no expression to be seen, and is making a non-religious based stance that this is religious. It is not, it is a personal choice. You don't see Muslim women in Turkey covering their faces! Where is this in the Quar'an??

And what about those English Muslims' who wear skin tight jeans, high heels and a burka with veil? Is this about modesty? I think not.

And where is it in our constitution of Rights and Freedoms that we have to be frightened by completely covered people. Since a terrorist was already caught trying to evade police in a burka, then why do we not have the right to have security in our airports, in our communities and in our schools.

This is definately about tolerance, and the Muslims' in the Western nations have to be tolerant and accepting of the society in which they are enjoying.

Instead we have been frightened by protests and flaming effigies, violence and demands for apologies. Never once did l see a Muslim actually read the speech, recognize the good intent and explain it to fellow Muslims'. Never once did l hear an apology for going bizerk over an opinion that was never intended to be insulting, but rather an invitation for peace. In fact the Pope was claiming that Islam was not violent, and the result was violence. What about freedom of speech, why are these Muslims' being intolerant of our freedom of speech.

And then there is the demand for an apology over the Crusades, when I don't hear any apology about all the Christians they persecuted and tortured in public. Yet another example of intolerance and critism of our cultural beliefs.

There is a price for freedom and democracy and to see everyones face is a small measure to ask.

Especially in a religion that has been proven to support, fund, recruit and plan a mass murder in our nieghbourhood, and this is through Mosques.

To go about talking about nudist is a weak and ridiculous defense, however seeing some people naked would also evoke horror...

 

[tracy]

May I help? Do you think a person should be forced to do something before they reach the mature age, like being covered under the veil, male or especially female circumsition which is done in a horrible painfull way - before they decide what they want bythemselves? Unless it's necessary offcourse, like immunising, learning etc.

Quite the opposite, I think they should be able to choose (it's one reason I don't participate in circs at work). So, if a woman chooses to wear a veil of her own free will, I don't see why I am the one who should tell her not to. Isn't that a little condescending?

 

[Chukcha]

Quite the opposite, I think they should be able to choose (it's one reason I don't participate in circs at work). So, if a woman chooses to wear a veil of her own free will, I don't see why I am the one who should tell her not to. Isn't that a little condescending?

Yes, but if that women had no choice herself in the beginning, and wearing that veil then become simply "paranoya", "fear" or "complex" - then it isn't the right thing to do, if the muslim mother demands her daughter to be covered in the 30 degrees heat, then it's ridiculous and unfair, it's called being stupidly influenced and forced.
If an eight year old girl being circumsised by her parents, because they think she should but she is sh**t scared, and the procedure is absolutely unnesessary, then it's not only against a free will but a crime!

 

[Chukcha]

To add a little bit more, Tracy, as someone was saying before, if you come to the country follow the countrie's rules, do not create your own rules if it does affect others. It does affect me, I am terrified when I see these people in black, my heart pulsates and I shiever when I see them walking by. Even my kid was scared, we are not used to this kind of culture, and frankly I wouldn't like to get used to it. I prefer the Western style, or european or something not oppressive.

 

[Colpy]

She refused to work with men?

How can that be when Khadija Bibi (Mohammed's first wife) was his employer! She was a businesswoman who worked with and got the respect of many men in her milieu. Moreover, it is well established that women have always owned businesses in the ME and, as a consequence, have always had to work with men.

Perhaps this particular young lady is misformed. But there is absolutely no basis for saying that she cannot work with men because it is violative of religious tenets. There simply is no such rule in Islam.

There is no rule that women have to wear a tent, either............but that doesn't stop the fundamentalists from insisting on it.

 

[tracy]

Yes, but if that women had no choice herself in the beginning, and wearing that veil then become simply "paranoya", "fear" or "complex" - then it isn't the right thing to do, if the muslim mother demands her daughter to be covered in the 30 degrees heat, then it's ridiculous and unfair, it's called being stupidly influenced and forced.
If an eight year old girl being circumsised by her parents, because they think she should but she is sh**t scared, and the procedure is absolutely unnesessary, then it's not only against a free will but a crime!

FGM is always illegal in Canada, the US and Britain. It has no place in this discussion.

As for the veil, how do you know these women AREN"T choosing it of their own free will. Many of the women taking up the veil did so as adults and their older female relatives don't veil themselves. Why shouldn't they be allowed to?

 

[tracy]

To add a little bit more, Tracy, as someone was saying before, if you come to the country follow the countrie's rules, do not create your own rules if it does affect others. It does affect me, I am terrified when I see these people in black, my heart pulsates and I shiever when I see them walking by. Even my kid was scared, we are not used to this kind of culture, and frankly I wouldn't like to get used to it. I prefer the Western style, or european or something not oppressive.

It affects you only as much as you let it. I grew up seeing Indian women in saris all the time. This isn't so different. These people aren't "creating their own rules", because we don't have any rules about clothing beyond indecency laws. Your daughter might also be scared of a punk with piercings all over his face and a blue mohawk. That doesn't mean they should be forbidden. What you fear, I may not. My friend's child saw a covered woman for the first time at SeaWorld and thought she looked like the grim reaper. His father told him they were really just ninjas and he thought they were the coolest things ever. Kids react with fear partly because of their parent's reactions IMO.

 

[Chukcha]

FGM is always illegal in Canada, the US and Britain. It has no place in this discussion.

As for the veil, how do you know these women AREN"T choosing it of their own free will. Many of the women taking up the veil did so as adults and their older female relatives don't veil themselves. Why shouldn't they be allowed to?

Think about "who cares about your illegal", we have our laws? See where I come from?. You see, you're already talking by the law of Islam more than defending the western interests, be carefull.

 

[Sassylassie]

When in Rome,do as the romans do.


As I mentioned previously, according to reknowned British scholar Marmaduke Pickthall (world's foremost authority on Islam), Muslims must adjust to the moral standards of the society in which they find themselves. Islam does NOT have the authority to impose its standards on that society as Mohammed never did so.

Again, this young lady needs to actually read what Mohammed had to say rather than to allow others to dicate to her how to think or act. There is absolutely no basis for believing that she cannot work in the presence of men or that having her face exposed constitutes immodesty or public error. If Mohammed was here, he would say would I just wrote.

That is the jest of it Gopher, it isn't part of Islam. The veil in question isn't a veil at tall it's a hood with eye slits. Very scary for young children, and like most children they learn by facial expressions as well teaching lessons. The Burka isn't a veil either, those who don the Burka have decided to embrace Extreme Islam and it's doctorine. The Burka is a product of Iran and the Taliban, it's sole purpose is to isolate and dehumanize women. It has nothing to do with wanting to cover one's face for modesty, it's shows support for the radicals. How many women in Canada sported a Burka pre-September 11? None that I saw, did anyone else see a Burka before September 11?

 

[Chukcha]

Kids react with fear partly because of their parent's reactions IMO.

The less there is to worry about the better, I think adults should be able to control their feelings better than children, why is my child supposed to get used to the religion and their traditions and those religious can't do something about their stupidity for the sake of the children who live in the country they chose to immigrate to?
The laws in ME affect christian point of view, it is suppressed and unwelcome and there is hardly anything you can do, even wearing a cross makes it difficult, so it sounds like the west is slowly roting with it's "political correctness" get over it!

 

[I think not]

Why would anybody allow their own culture to be consumed and manipulated by alien residents?

Canada nor Britain nor any other civilised country in the world are Mulsim and we're supposed to bend over backwards for them? Hey, this woman CAME to a Christian country* and expects society to change for her? Forget it.

It's about time WE stood up for our own country and culture and STOPPED the onslaught of foreigners demanding us to change. Unfortunately, our political parties have figured out that while brainwashing our population into believing mass-immigration is healthy, they use other tactics to get this 'minority vote' by allowing them in like the flood gates opened by Katrina.

*Western countries have moved away from officially being "Christian" per se, but we're still a culture evolved from Christianity.

Mass immigration is fine, it's "multiculturalism" that's the problem. I'm wondering when some will figure this out.

 

[tracy]

Think about "who cares about your illegal", we have our laws? See where I come from?. You see, you're already talking by the law of Islam more than defending the western interests, be carefull.

I don't see where you are coming from on this post. FGM is illegal. Plain and simple. Anyone doing it can be charged and put in jail. Our western interest believes that FGM is child abuse and I agree.

Choosing what to wear is another matter. I don't like the idea of anyone telling me what to wear, do you? So why would I do that to someone else?

 

[tracy]

The less there is to worry about the better, I think adults should be able to control their feelings better than children, why is my child supposed to get used to the religion and their traditions and those religious can't do something about their stupidity for the sake of the children who live in the country they chose to immigrate to?
The laws in ME affect christian point of view, it is suppressed and unwelcome and there is hardly anything you can do, even wearing a cross makes it difficult, so it sounds like the west is slowly roting with it's "political correctness" get over it!

So we should be more like the middle east and oppress religious minorities?

 

[gopher]

that doesn't stop the fundamentalists from insisting on it.

Fundamentalists can be challenged by invoking the writings of Pickthall whose knowledge of the subject remains insurpassable. Again, if he was alive today he would side with me on this issue.



That is the jst of it Gopher, it isn't part of Islam. The veil in question isn't a veil at tall it's a hood with eye slits... The Burka isn't a veil either, those who don the Burka have decided to embrace Extreme Islam and it's doctorine. The Burka is a product of Iran and the Taliban, it's sole purpose is to isolate and dehumanize women. It has nothing to do with wanting to cover one's face for modesty, it's shows support for the radicals.


The burqa's history goes back to Aryan tribes who roamed the borderland between Iran and Afghanistan and was first utilized about the First Century AD. Mohammed was born many centuries later. He was well acquainted with Aryan tribesmen and made no demands upon their cultural customs. All he demanded was that they acknowledge Allah as God, that the Bible was correct (meaning that all Muslims are Christians as they acknowledge Jesus as Messiah), and that they adhere to certain dietary laws by restricting comestibles and beverages to those thought to be pure. Interestingly, while he demanded that they discard wines in the streets of Medina, he did NOT demand that the Caucasian nomads discard their vodka!

The burqa is NOT Islamic. There is no koranic basis for its purported mandatory use. It is a matter of cultural custom among a very small amount of Aryan origin peoples. Moreover, there is no koranic basis for demanding that any society is obligated to recognize the allegation that it is mandatory.

The use of the burqa, and society's recognition of its customary uses, is strictly volitional.

As far as I am concerned, any lady is free to use it unless society feels that there is an overriding interest in restricting its use whether at work, on the streets, or when driving an automobile. If a given jurisdiction feels that its use represents a potential hazard upon that area, then it has a right under its police power to restrict it or ban it altogether.

Here in Minnesota, the KKK was banned for using veils in which they tried to hide the identity of potential lawbreakers. The Klan went to court and invoked its religious and lawful assembly rights to protect their right to use veils. But the courts routinely recognized that we have a right to legally restrict those veils because of an overriding need to protect ourselves from any form of trouble. Using that same form of legal reasoning and with legal precedent, any jurisdiction can do the same for a burqa if it chooses to do so.

 

[Hotshot]

It affects you only as much as you let it. I grew up seeing Indian women in saris all the time. This isn't so different. These people aren't "creating their own rules", because we don't have any rules about clothing beyond indecency laws. Your daughter might also be scared of a punk with piercings all over his face and a blue mohawk. That doesn't mean they should be forbidden. What you fear, I may not. My friend's child saw a covered woman for the first time at SeaWorld and thought she looked like the grim reaper. His father told him they were really just ninjas and he thought they were the coolest things ever. Kids react with fear partly because of their parent's reactions IMO.

The parent lying to the child certainly doesn't help the situation any. How about a simple "thats their religion"?

That said, I still believe that 'when in Rome....' is the way things should be.

 

[northstar]

posted by tracy

So we should be more like the middle east and oppress religious minorities?

This situation is about a religious minority attempting to oppress us.

 

[tracy]

The parent lying to the child certainly doesn't help the situation any. How about a simple "thats their religion"?

That said, I still believe that 'when in Rome....' is the way things should be.

He was joking. I thought it was funny. His mom explained simply that they were from elsewhere and that's how people dressed where they were from. No biggie.

 

[tracy]

posted by tracy


This situation is about a religious minority attempting to oppress us.

I have never had a muslim try to oppress me. It doesn't oppress me for her to wear a veil.

I understand the teacher assistant being fired because she couldn't do her job. But, I don't understand why ALL veils should be banned.