Canada went from peace keeping to an invading force. That's why 31 Canadians died this year as compared to 1 last year.
59% polled say Afghan mission lost cause
- Thread starter catman
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Canadians haven't done much peacekeeping duty for years compared to other nations. We've largely left that to third world countries whose soldiers are obviously seen as more expendable than ours. Time for us to put up or shut up IMO. I guess we could be like some other countries and stay in the relative safety of the northern part of the country, but that won't really get us anywhere in the end.
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There is only one reason why Bush cannot win his wars on Iraq or on Afghanistan - no war can be won unless you have the support of the majority of the people in a country.
We had more than ample evidence of this in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos. In each instance, the White House proclaimed victory and forevermore pretended that its cause was just. But history clearly and unequivocally shows that the majority of those peoples were on the side of the patriots who viewed Americans as evil invaders. The White House relied on the support of the wealthy elites but not on the support of the majority. This is why the wars on those innocent countries was lost. And precisely why Bush has lost both in Iraq and in Afghanistan.
Whether you like what I have written is of no consequence. What matters most is that what you have read is the incontrovertible truth.
We had more than ample evidence of this in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos. In each instance, the White House proclaimed victory and forevermore pretended that its cause was just. But history clearly and unequivocally shows that the majority of those peoples were on the side of the patriots who viewed Americans as evil invaders. The White House relied on the support of the wealthy elites but not on the support of the majority. This is why the wars on those innocent countries was lost. And precisely why Bush has lost both in Iraq and in Afghanistan.
Whether you like what I have written is of no consequence. What matters most is that what you have read is the incontrovertible truth.
How do you know that the majority of Afghans support the Taliban and not the government in place now?
I say we have no business sticking our nose into any countries internal affairs until they cross borders or attack their neighbours. Bosnia, Serbia, etc was really a civil war with a nation breaking up. Let them fight it out, they have been at each other for almost a thousand years. This goes for all the Middle East, they are tribal and until they want to join modern societies around the world let them go at it and keep our nose out. NO Afghanistan was sold as a humanitarian mission as a Canadian role. We were going to build roads, bridges, schools etc.
Now I do agree we had to do some combat support to protect our workers and the infastructure we built. This has now turned into a totally different thing.
We are like the Italians or the Romanians on the Russian front for the Germans in World War Two. We are a side show, propping up an American war they have abandoned to go and exploit Iraq for its oil reserves. If America had not illegally attacked Iraq they would have the strength to hold their own in Afghanistan.
I am not a big fan of the murdering, Islamic Fundamentalists and I am equally suspicious of the murdering imperialist, right wing American Administration.
And no I do not hate Americans, I find it difficult hate individuals I don't even know. This is about what we were going to do which is different from what we are doing, at the whim of a Prime Minister who won't be there long enough to change the locks on Parliaments front door.
Now I do agree we had to do some combat support to protect our workers and the infastructure we built. This has now turned into a totally different thing.
We are like the Italians or the Romanians on the Russian front for the Germans in World War Two. We are a side show, propping up an American war they have abandoned to go and exploit Iraq for its oil reserves. If America had not illegally attacked Iraq they would have the strength to hold their own in Afghanistan.
I am not a big fan of the murdering, Islamic Fundamentalists and I am equally suspicious of the murdering imperialist, right wing American Administration.
And no I do not hate Americans, I find it difficult hate individuals I don't even know. This is about what we were going to do which is different from what we are doing, at the whim of a Prime Minister who won't be there long enough to change the locks on Parliaments front door.
There have been several media accounts which show that Bush's puppet Karzai has very little support outside of Kabul. Significantly, the country is officially called "The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan". People are more inclined to be loyal to their tribal authorities in the provinces and most are hard core orthodox Muslims.
The obvious parallels to Vietnam are what should concern us the most, and are very real parallels. It is becoming close to that situation, and it seems to move more in that direction each day.
We are trying to make change through force at this point and this change is more from us imposed than out of the design of the people themselves.
Our political system is more than just elections. It’s about checks and balances (which I’m starting to worry about too), equality, etc. under a constantly refined legal system, which we are even still in the process of trying to improve. At this stage of their society they haven’t even held a discussion on whether it is right to put a person to death for converting to another religion and I doubt they will anytime soon. As we witnessed, this is a general attitude of their society. In order to save that man's life (who converted to christianity) it took 'outside political pressure' as well as the measure of taking him out of the country.
We are trying to make change through force at this point and this change is more from us imposed than out of the design of the people themselves.
Our political system is more than just elections. It’s about checks and balances (which I’m starting to worry about too), equality, etc. under a constantly refined legal system, which we are even still in the process of trying to improve. At this stage of their society they haven’t even held a discussion on whether it is right to put a person to death for converting to another religion and I doubt they will anytime soon. As we witnessed, this is a general attitude of their society. In order to save that man's life (who converted to christianity) it took 'outside political pressure' as well as the measure of taking him out of the country.
Tracy, I believe we should not enter into any disputes, civil wars or anything else in the third world. These people are in the mess they are in because of tribal alliances, religion and their backward view of the world. When they are tired of killing each other and want assistance we should be willing to help but only when they enter the modern world. I used to have sympathy and compassion, and I used to believe in total multi culturalism, well not anymore.
The world has spent billions on everything from milk to bullets and nothing has done any good.
The world has spent billions on everything from milk to bullets and nothing has done any good.
Clearly, a good number of these people are half evolved. I'm not in the least concerned about them. I only worry about the environment they're allowed to despoil and the wildlife they're allowed to exploit. We should take a no nonsense approach to them all. Human rights groups be damned. The key thing is to ensure the viability of biodiversity in regions where these dangerous human-lite populations live.
Half evolved? I'm sure if you took an average Afghan kid and had it grow up from infancy in a wealthy western family, it would be like any other kid. However in this case, if the parents are good this kid would alternatively hold an advantage over other kids.
I feel you are going too far with this type of thinking. In today’s world there needs to be an attitude of caring towards everything. I'm not on here arguing against value behind the lives of the Afghans. I'm arguing against a faulty perception on the reality of our situation in trying to help.
Was it yesterday? I listened to a defense analyst on CTV. I’m not sure if he was a defense analyst of the Canadian Military, or a defense analyst for NATO (caught the last half). He said NATO was sent in as a stabilization force not as a full combat force (I assume after the US declared major combat missions were done). He said quite candidly that we simply do not have the numbers to succeed. At the current state, the Taliban will win simply by chipping away at us over time.
No you didn't. Canada went from a peacekeeping force to fighting a righteous and noble war against the Taliban. Those 31 Canadians died fighting the Taliban to give the people of Afghanistan - who want you to be there - a better life without the Taliban being in your country. Not only that, but Canada also has the full backing of the UN and Nato in this operation so Canada is not breaking any international laws in being in Afghanistan.
Or, if you are so desperate for Canadian troops to not fight the Taliban, you could always persuade your soldiers to NOT shoot at Taliban soldiers and go to the safe area of Afghanistan where not much action takes place and join the French, Germans and Italians in their nightly boozing and karaoke parties.
What a crock! Those Afghans who want us to be there- are they actively supporting action against the Taliban? Are they responsibly informing Canadian troops where the Taliban are located when in their region? Are they refusing to supply food to Taliban when in their town? Are they more comfortable working with us or with their countrymen involved in an insurgency against our troops?
Insurgencies work best when there's local co-operation. This one's going gangbusters!
Insurgencies work best when there's local co-operation. This one's going gangbusters!
No, it means Canadians feel Canadian lives are worth more than Afghanis. It's really no different than any other country in that regard.
Or they think we can't win, so we should stop trying.
Well, ain't that just grand. NATO's commander in Afghanistan is on record yesterday stating we have six months to make a difference in the country or a minimum of 70% of the Afghans will support the Taliban. Great! We're busting our butt there and the Afghans are giving us a timeline. Reminds me of the columnist in the Star a few weeks ago that said Afghans are 'maximizers.' They revel in testing the resolve of foreigners to see if we really are serious about doing the job. (And my pointy little beaner says- whatever made them think they were in a position to so ruthlessly judge those who have come to help?)
This is the nonsense our troops are up against there. And it is just that.
This is the nonsense our troops are up against there. And it is just that.
Whoever compard Afghanistan to Vietnam is a damned fool. America wasn't allowed to attack North Vietnam, which caused a virtually unhindered amount of men and materiel to flow south to where the Americans were. Even though America pretty much stopped the Tet offensive cold, they still ended up losing the war, mostly due to the western media. Anyways...
NATO has been screaming for men in Afghanistan for months now. The British are complaining that they are overworked... What does that mean? We need more men over there to win. If NATO got off it's collective ass and deployed more men, we'd win in Afghanistan by the end of the year.
NATO has been screaming for men in Afghanistan for months now. The British are complaining that they are overworked... What does that mean? We need more men over there to win. If NATO got off it's collective ass and deployed more men, we'd win in Afghanistan by the end of the year.