Brexit plunges UK economy to worst level since 2009, data suggests

Blackleaf

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And in exchange for that, Canada has a better-than-nothing trade deal with the EU too. The good news for Canada is that due to geography, we depend much less on the EU than you do. If we had the same better-than-nothing deal with the US, we'd quickly become an economic has-been. That could still happen with Trump tearing up NAFTA.

If the US gave Canada the ultimatum 'free movement of people or no free trade,' we'd be just as stupid to turn it down as the UK will be if it turns down the EU's same ultimatum.

Why do you think the UK PM is so hesitant to trigger Article 50? Because she has a head on her shoulder and knows she's stuck in a terrible catch-32: free movement of people or no market access. Take your pick.

May is delaying triggering Article 50 in order to get the best deal for Britain. May - and her Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union David Davis and her Secretary of State for International Trade Liam Fox - want to way up all the options and decide what's best for Britain before then choosing their option and triggering Article 50. The Eu is desperate for Britain to trigger it now because it knows that if Britain rushes into it then she might not get a great deal. I think it'll be triggered around the New Year.

As for free movement of people, I'm sure the EU will cave in on that matter. May is determined to end freedom of movement into the UK and I'm sure she'll not budge on the matter. The EU will blink first.

Actually, Brexit caused it to fall behind France.

I'm not too sure about that, but if it did then it'll only be temporary. Britain is growing faster than France.

And let's see how both France and Germany fair when they have to bail out the likes of Italy. The French will also soon have to make up for the massive shortfall in the EU's finances that will occur as a result of the EU's second-largest budget contributor leaving the union.
 

Machjo

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May is delaying triggering Article 50 in order to get the best deal for Britain. May - and her Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union David Davis and her Secretary of State for International Trade Liam Fox - want to way up all the options and decide what's best for Britain before then choosing their option and triggering Article 50. The Eu is desperate for Britain to trigger it now because it knows that if Britain rushes into it then she might not get a great deal. I think it'll be triggered around the New Year.

As for free movement of people, I'm sure the EU will cave in on that matter. May is determined to end freedom of movement into the UK and I'm sure she'll not budge on the matter. The EU will blink first.

The EU could not have been clearer: no free movement of people, no free trade. It will not budge on that. If you choose to opt out of that, then you'll be negotiating something similar to what Canada has. But the UK makes up around five percent of the EU's trade while the EU makes up over fourth percent of the UK's. In a trade war, guess which will hurt the most.

And given how things are going in the US where Trump does not even want to trade with his neighbours, why would he want to trade with you?
 

Blackleaf

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The EU could not have been clearer: no free movement of people, no free trade.

We'll see. Considering that the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU I expect the EU to blink first.
In a trade war, guess which will hurt the most
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Considering that the UK buys more from the EU than the EU buys from the UK and that the UK's far more dynamic economy is more able to create wealth and jobs than any other economy in the EU (over the last few years the UK has created more jobs than the other 27 EU members states combined), clearly the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU. Therefore any trade war between the two will hurt the EU more. Britain will be the one holding all the cards during Brexit negotiations.
And given how things are going in the US where Trump does not even want to trade with his neighbours, why would he want to trade with you?

The US already trades with Britain. Britain's trade with the US is growing, but its trade with the EU is declining.

Also, why would the US NOT want to trade with Britain? Why would it not want to sell its goods and services to Britain?
 

Machjo

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No trade deal is truly free trade without the free movement of people.

With no trade deal, the UK will not have access to the EU's service sector (including banking and financials). And that just for starters. Then there are non-tariff barriers to trade suchbas country-of-origin requirements, quotas, different products standards, etc. Look how standards pertaining to the size of liquor bottles prevented alcohol trade between Canada's provinces.

At absolute best, the UK might be able to get tariffs lowered or eliminated, but if that's all it gets, that'll be a primitive deal. And if there is no deal, it doesn't even get that!

We don't have the free movement of people between Canada, the United States and Mexico.

But we should. That said, under Trump or Clinton, we can forget it.

Maybe between Canada and Mexico?

We'll see. Considering that the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU I expect the EU to blink first.
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Considering that the UK buys more from the EU than the EU buys from the UK and that the UK's far more dynamic economy is more able to create wealth and jobs than any other economy in the EU (over the last few years the UK has created more jobs than the other 27 EU members states combined), clearly the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU. Therefore any trade war between the two will hurt the EU more. Britain will be the one holding all the cards during Brexit negotiations.


The US already trades with Britain. Britain's trade with the US is growing, but its trade with the EU is declining.

Also, why would the US NOT want to trade with Britain? Why would it not want to sell its goods and services to Britain?

Trump is not motivated by economic policy. He's motivated by nationalist policy. It's not that he's stupid. It's that his priorities are elsewhere. Tearing up NAFTA would hurt the US economy and he kbows it. But in his mind it's a price worth paying for elusive sovereignty. Better poor and totally sovereign than wealthy with less sovereignty is his worldview. I disagree with it, but there it is.

For that reason, it will be extremely difficult for Canada to talk sense into him if he tears up NAFTA. He needs the UK even less than he needs Canada due to geography. So if he's prepared to test up NAFTA, why would he trade with you?

And check your stats. The EU's trade with the UK is far less than the UK's with the EU.
 

Blackleaf

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And check your stats. The EU's trade with the UK is far less than the UK's with the EU.

The UK buys more from the EU than the EU buys from the UK. The UK's far more dynamic economy is more able to create wealth and jobs than any other economy in the EU (over the last few years the UK has created more jobs than the other 27 EU members states combined. The EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU.

EU vote over and the UK is fine - let’s stop the negativity



Liam Halligan
23 July 2016
The Telegraph


There are growing signs that the British economy is bearing up well Credit: Getty

It’s now over a month since the UK voted to quit the European Union. We’ve since seen considerable financial volatility and some investments put on hold. Having said that, UK shares have come roaring back amid growing signs the British economy is actually bearing up quite well.

Far from going “to hell in a hand-basket”, as so many sneering Remain campaigners insisted after our historic referendum on June 23, the UK remains commercially buoyant, with consumer spending and labour markets so far appearing to take Brexit in their stride.

I accept it’s early days. Any economic assessment, just a few weeks on, relies on preliminary survey evidence, rather than official data. Such concerns didn’t stop Project Fear doom-mongers, of course, during the first few days after the vote seizing on any sign of economic weakness, any setback whatsoever in fact, and blaming it on Brexit.

For the last four weeks, our national airwaves have been filled with claims by angry Remain backers – upset they lost, but even more so at being outvoted by people they view as inferior – that Brexit will be an economic disaster. Nothing could be further from the truth. And evidence is now emerging that exposes the lurid pre-referendum warnings from the Treasury, the Bank of England and the International Monetary Fund as the irresponsible and politically motivated nonsense they always were.

While UK stocks nose-dived straight after the referendum, the FTSE-100 share index is currently 6pc higher than before we voted. The FTSE-250, comprised of smaller, more domestically focused firms, is back where it was in early June.

Yes, the pound has fallen sharply since the referendum. One reason is that the so-called “smart money” was so heavily skewed towards Remain. Prior to the vote, London-based pollsters, political commentators and City bigwigs, locked in an echo chamber of self-justification, persuaded each other Leave couldn’t possibly win. When that myth was shattered, the billions of pounds bet on the wrong side unwound violently, sending the pound tumbling.

London’s upmarket New Bond Street. The Brexit vote seems to have done little to dampen consumer spending despite dire warnings made before the referendum


Having since stabilised, sterling is now around 10pc lower against the dollar than a month ago. That has downsides, of course, but the competitive boost for British goods sold abroad is surely welcome – given our imbalance of imports over exports at a near-record 7pc of GDP.

Many “advanced” economies, over recent years, have engaged in quantitative easing, “printing” virtual money partly to weaken their currency. The UK’s Brexit vote has just done that at a stroke. This time last year, the IMF and others were warning that a strong pound was hampering UK recovery. Now sterling is lower, that impediment has been removed.

The Bank of England’s latest monthly survey, published last week, certainly paints a more measured picture of the UK after a Brexit vote than we heard from Threadneedle Street during the referendum campaign. Gathering information from a wide range of localities, the Bank’s “regional agents” report most businesses aren’t changing their hiring or investment plans.

“There is no clear evidence of a sharp general slowdown in activity,” the survey said.

There is “little sign of any impact on consumer spending”, the Bank survey continued, despite dire earlier warnings of a massive Brexit-imposed shock. Even John Lewis, that bellwether of the British High Street, said spending was 3.2pc higher during the second week of July than the same period last year. And while exporters said they felt a lower pound would help drive their business, the Bank’s agents reported that competition would likely prevent retailers from passing on to consumers much of the inflationary impact of higher import prices.

Unemployment fell, we learnt last week, below the symbolic 5pc-level for the first time in over a decade. During the three months to the end of May, an average of 31.7m people were in work in the UK, up 176,000 on the quarter before. While these numbers predate the Brexit referendum, there is evidence the labour market has remained buoyant since. Recruitment giant Reed reports job vacancies in the three weeks from June 23 were 8pc up on the same period last year.

Even the IMF is now changing its tune. Two years ago, the Fund said that, by attempting to balance our budget, the UK was “playing with fire”. As confidence grew, and the British economy recovered, Fund supremo Christine Lagarde was forced to acknowledge this error.

But that didn’t stop her issuing blood-curdling warnings of recession if the UK voted to leave the EU. Now, just a few weeks on, the IMF says the UK will in fact grow by 1.7pc this year and 1.3pc in 2017, second only to the US among the G7 nations – in yet another blow to this vital institution’s credibility.

I accept our Brexit vote has generated commercial concerns. But the reaction to Friday’s news that the famously volatile PMI index – a survey of business sentiment – indicated a modest contraction in July has been hysterical. Given the relentless drumbeat of media negativity in recent weeks, I’m surprised the drop wasn’t sharper.

The major danger facing the UK economy now isn’t Brexit, but a systemic meltdown on European bond markets sparked by Italy. For months, this column has warned about the danger posed by the vast swathe of non-performing loans harboured by Italian banks – amounting to over 15pc of all loans outstanding, close to a jaw-dropping 20pc of GDP.

Italy is in this mess partly due to financial mismanagement but mainly because, since adopting the single currency in 1999, the country’s GDP has barely grown. Constrained by a high-currency euro strait-jacket, Italy has stagnated, causing even responsibly extended loans to go bad.

With the cost of recapitalizing Italy’s main banks standing at around €50bn, this crisis should be manageable. Yet EU rules prevent any state bail-out prior to a “bail-in” – that is, shareholders and bondholders taking a hit before any taxpayer backing. But that would mean millions of innocent Italian households lose considerable sums – as uninsured depositors or owners of widely-held retail bank bonds.

Were that to happen, Italy’s Five Star movement, which has recently overtaken the ruling centre-Left party in opinion polls, could easily take power. Having just clinched mayoral seats in Turin and Rome, Five Star is resurgent – not least due to its pledge to hold a referendum on Italian euro membership.

Given the extent to which Italy has suffered under the single currency, and is now being pushed around by Berlin and Brussels, that’s a referendum Five Star could win.

Italy isn’t Greece. Removing the eurozone’s third-biggest economy could upend the entire “European project”. So this banking crisis could go to the wire and beyond this summer, with testy, drawn-out negotiations causing serious angst on financial markets.


Liam Halligan is glad Prime Minister Theresa May is committed to Brexit after being a Remain voter Credit: PA


That’s the backdrop against which our Brexit negotiations will begin. Compared to much of the EU, then, the UK could well appear economically stable and strong. I doubt that will prevent embittered Remainers from continuing to talk down our economy, though, maintaining their invective against Brexit, as they agitate for a second referendum.

Holding another Brexit vote, when the British people have already spoken, would be a democratic travesty. I accept, though, that while the 52pc-48pc result was decisive, it was also close. So politicians from both sides of the UK debate must negotiate what Brexit means among themselves, as we collectively negotiate with the rest of the EU.

I’m glad, then, that our new Prime Minister, having supported Remain, is now fully committed to Brexit – and has appointed a trio of powerful Leave-backing ministers to start thrashing out the details. But just as Leave needs to accept it doesn’t have carte blanche, Remain must accept it lost.

And, in the meantime, what we need above all is an end to this ceaseless attempt to talk the UK into a recession that we’re actually pretty well-placed to avoid.

Follow Liam on Twitter @liamhalligan


EU vote over and the UK is fine - let’s stop the negativity
 
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Blackleaf

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It was founded with the specific aim of allowing Germany to do what it failed to do military in WWII. The whole thing is run to benefit Germany at the expense of everyone else, and France is Germany's lapdog.
 

Jinentonix

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No trade deal is truly free trade without the free movement of people.
What a load of codswallop. Free trade is simply international trade left to its natural course without tariffs, quotas or other restrictions.
Nope, I don't see any mention of free movement of people in that definition.


Quit confusing commerce with migration.
 

Blackleaf

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America does more trade with the EU single market than Britain does - and doesn't have to accept free movement of people from the EU.

Theresa May has said again that she will not accept EU free movement into the UK.

Actually, Brexit caused it to fall behind France.

Britain WAS superseded by France as the world's fifth largest economy - for 15 minutes...

http://www.cityam.com/244103/eu-referendum-no-uk-economy-isnt-now-smaller-than]Is the UK economy now smaller than France's? It could be, depending on the exchange rate as the UK is the fifth largest economy even after EU referendum and extreme Brexit volatility | City A.M.[/url]