Ontario compared to cash-strapped California

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
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California spending doubled in 10 years. Spending rose from 13% of GDP to 17%. It's also a state that has been dominated by Democrats. So to say it has been manufactured by conservatives is pretty silly./QUOTE]

Not so. Democrats are conservatives. At least they certainly are by the standards of most democracies. In fact if the equivalent of the Democrats was recreated in Canada it would take the form of the Conservatives and Progressive Conservatives.

You have to grasp the fact that the United States; of all of the world's democracies, has no true left wing party. On a scale of ten what the US has is is two right wing parties, one (the Republicans) about five points to the right of centre and the other (the Democrats) about two points to the right of centre. Due to the dominant position of these two parties in US politics for anyone to have a chance to get elected her or she pretty much has to choose one of these parties. As a result any true left wing candidate quickly get lost among the overwhelming conservative majority.
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
31,859
11,560
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Regina, Saskatchewan
Per capita debt is higher

TORONTO - A new study that compares Ontario's crushing deficit to California's paints a bleak picture for the economic future of the province.

Both jurisdictions face deficits of about $16 billion, but when you compare population and economic output, Ontario's fiscal mess is worse, says the report by Fair Pensions for All, a citizens' group that studied the issue.

Ontario has approximately a third of California's population of nearly 38 million people and a third ($638 million) of its GDP, and that means the per capita debt is far higher: $16,638 per Ontarian versus $10,463 for Golden State residents......

Debt Burden / person (Source: Canadian Federation of Independent Business)
Quebec $39,773
Ontario: $36,004
Newfoundland & Labrador: $33,535
Nova Scotia: $32,824
New Brunswick: $31,786
Prince Edward Island: $31,576
Manitoba: $30,156
British Columbia: $25,667
Northwest Territories: $23,042
Saskatchewan: $21,783
Nunavut: $21,296
Alberta: $14,544
Yukon: $12,707

......& from List of Canadian provinces and territories by gross domestic product - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia can be found this:

 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
to put things in proper perspective canadian conservative stephen harper is to the left of american "liberal" barack obama on many issues.
...

come on. A conservative is a conservative no matter where he lives.
lol!

nothing worse than someone that knows exactly what they're talking about, casually strolling into a 'i know you are but what am i' - 'my dad can beat your dad' standard left vs right argumentative cc thread and sorting us out.

Thanks a lot toro. No bug off. :lol:
+500
 

Toro

Senate Member
May 24, 2005
5,468
109
63
Florida, Hurricane Central
California spending doubled in 10 years. Spending rose from 13% of GDP to 17%. It's also a state that has been dominated by Democrats. So to say it has been manufactured by conservatives is pretty silly./QUOTE]

Not so. Democrats are conservatives. At least they certainly are by the standards of most democracies. In fact if the equivalent of the Democrats was recreated in Canada it would take the form of the Conservatives and Progressive Conservatives.

You have to grasp the fact that the United States; of all of the world's democracies, has no true left wing party. On a scale of ten what the US has is is two right wing parties, one (the Republicans) about five points to the right of centre and the other (the Democrats) about two points to the right of centre. Due to the dominant position of these two parties in US politics for anyone to have a chance to get elected her or she pretty much has to choose one of these parties. As a result any true left wing candidate quickly get lost among the overwhelming conservative majority.

In America, the Democrats run from center left to left. It's irrelevant what the Democrats would be on the political spectrum in Canada or France or Denmark or Argentina or Congo or wherever. In the US, the Democrats are a center left party. If you want to look at it your way, you could say that there isn't a truly conservative political party in Canada or few places else for that matter. Considering that most developed countries spend at least 40% of their GDP through the government - and more than half in places like France, Sweden, Denmark, etc., - its just as plausible to say that the world is left-wing and the Republicans are a moderately right-wing party. If one thinks that there are two right-wing parties in the US, it probably means that that person is on the far left-wing. FTR, after living here in America for 15 years, and after being actively involved in Canadian politics and active a bit in British politics, there are elements of the Democrats that are just as left-wing as the NDP or Labour.

As for California, the problem as I noted is spending by the government. Spending on social services, infrastructure and government employees is generally a "left-wing" concept no matter where you go in the world. California's problems are that government spending accelerated because of "left-wing" policies. Ergo, its silly to blame conservatives because California's starry-eyed left-wing legislature ramped up government spending. Had California kept spending constant relative to GDP - just constant to GDP - over the past decade, then it wouldn't be in as bad of a condition as it is now.
 
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Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
8,252
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38
Edmonton
In America, the Democrats run from center left to left. It's irrelevant what the Democrats would be on the political spectrum in Canada or France or Denmark or Argentina or Congo or wherever.

I disagree. What the US has ended up with is two almost identical parties trying desperately to pretend that they are different. This fact has been recognized for decades by political analysts; in fact the earliest book describing the phenomenon that I have read was written about 1950 (sorry I can no longer remember the title or the author), but there are a number of other books detailing the lack of choice available to voters in the US.

As I mentioned before this has forced those on the US political left to choose one or the other of the two parties if they want to have any chance of getting elected. Unfortunately, these few true liberals are submerged by the much more numerous conservatives. As a result, it really does not matter what party is in power as the programs instituted are pretty much the same. In addition, most members of Congress have been hijacked by massive political contributions from big business. This pretty much insures that most US politicians will continue to vote the way their monied masters want them to.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that there are no liberals in the US. What I am saying is that liberal voters in the US have a very limited choice in the Republicans and Democrats.

Canada does have a real difference. For the past 80 years New Democratic (or CCF if you prefer) policies have been markedly different from Conservative policies and have strongly influenced the party platforms of the Liberals and Conservatives, forcing them to institute programs they would probably have ignored (universal health care being a prime example).

This is also true for nations like France, Britain, and other Western democracies. Left wing parties in these nations act like left wing parties. As a an example can you imagine either the Republicans or Democrats proposing a 75% tax level on the wealthy as has been proposed in France or the multiplicity of social programs in nations like Sweden and Germany?

The reality is, that if a political entity talks like a conservative, walks like a conservative, and implements conservative economic and social policies; then it probably is a conservative. That unfortunately, seems to be the case with both the Republicans and Democrats in the US. What Americans are saddled with is a party that is truly conservative and a competing party that is moderately conservative with a sprinkling of liberals thrown in for colour.

And BTW going massively into debt is not a liberal policy. The largest amount of debt added to the US National Debt has been the result of conservative policies. The Swedish Social Democratic Party (the world poster boys or girls for left wing policies) have always attempted to work from a balanced budget. The history in the US is that under Republican (conservative) presidents the US goes farther into debt.
 

Liberalman

Senate Member
Mar 18, 2007
5,623
36
48
Toronto
Outsourcing to other countries is the real problem and our federal governments free trade push is flushing more Canadian jobs down the toilet.
 

tay

Hall of Fame Member
May 20, 2012
11,548
1
36
Let's talk about flushing jobs down the toilet.

Take the XL Keystone pipeline.

The bottom line is, raw oil will be refined in the USA, not Canada, for destinations around the globe.

Why can't Canadians refine this Oil then ship it to Texas.
 

Toro

Senate Member
May 24, 2005
5,468
109
63
Florida, Hurricane Central
I disagree. What the US has ended up with is two almost identical parties trying desperately to pretend that they are different. This fact has been recognized for decades by political analysts; in fact the earliest book describing the phenomenon that I have read was written about 1950 (sorry I can no longer remember the title or the author), but there are a number of other books detailing the lack of choice available to voters in the US.

As I mentioned before this has forced those on the US political left to choose one or the other of the two parties if they want to have any chance of getting elected. Unfortunately, these few true liberals are submerged by the much more numerous conservatives. As a result, it really does not matter what party is in power as the programs instituted are pretty much the same. In addition, most members of Congress have been hijacked by massive political contributions from big business. This pretty much insures that most US politicians will continue to vote the way their monied masters want them to.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that there are no liberals in the US. What I am saying is that liberal voters in the US have a very limited choice in the Republicans and Democrats.

Canada does have a real difference. For the past 80 years New Democratic (or CCF if you prefer) policies have been markedly different from Conservative policies and have strongly influenced the party platforms of the Liberals and Conservatives, forcing them to institute programs they would probably have ignored (universal health care being a prime example).

This is also true for nations like France, Britain, and other Western democracies. Left wing parties in these nations act like left wing parties. As a an example can you imagine either the Republicans or Democrats proposing a 75% tax level on the wealthy as has been proposed in France or the multiplicity of social programs in nations like Sweden and Germany?

The reality is, that if a political entity talks like a conservative, walks like a conservative, and implements conservative economic and social policies; then it probably is a conservative. That unfortunately, seems to be the case with both the Republicans and Democrats in the US. What Americans are saddled with is a party that is truly conservative and a competing party that is moderately conservative with a sprinkling of liberals thrown in for colour.

And BTW going massively into debt is not a liberal policy. The largest amount of debt added to the US National Debt has been the result of conservative policies. The Swedish Social Democratic Party (the world poster boys or girls for left wing policies) have always attempted to work from a balanced budget. The history in the US is that under Republican (conservative) presidents the US goes farther into debt.

Let's look at both the US Democrats and the Canadian New Democrats.

US Democrats want higher taxes on the rich, Canadian New Democrats want higher taxes on the rich.

US Democrats want higher government spending, Canadian New Democrats want higher government spending.

US Democrats want socialized medicine, Canadian New Democrats want socialized medicine.

US Democrats want gay marriage, Canadian New Democrats want gay marriage.

US Democrats want more environmental protection, Canadian New Democrats want more environmental protection.

US Democrats want gun control, Canadian New Democrats want gun control.

US Democrats want affirmative action, Canadian New Democrats want affirmative action.

US Democrats want access to abortion, Canadian New Democrats want access to abortion.

US Democrats want to end poverty, Canadian New Democrats want to end poverty.

US Democrats want more regulation, Canadian New Democrats want more regulation.

And so on.

Sure, there are differences, but there are a lot of similarities.

Of course, Democrats don't always get what they want. America is a right-leaning nation. Polls have continuously shown that the American populace is split roughly 40/40/20 conservatives/independents/liberals. It is also a country borne in the belief that the individual is paramount and sovereign, unlike Canada. But in states which are dominated by Democrats, i.e. California, they are far more liberal than the rest of the country, and are more left-wing than some Canadian provinces.

Also, one must be cognizant of political structures. Canada is essentially a democratic dictatorship. We have elections once every four years or so, and all the power is concentrated at the top. In America, power is far more diffuse, with legislatures having a plethora of rules, laws and constitutional bounds designed to create checks and balances, which can make it difficult for any one party to implement their agenda from the top down unless they have an overwhelming majority, not to mention the power of constituencies and lobbies that can make it difficult to implement their agendas.

Canadians tend to look at politics through the prism of healthcare, since it is intertwined in Canadian nationalism. (Never mind that every single other developed nation has some form of government health insurance, and that nearly half of all healthcare spending in America is funded by the government, but no matter.) But America has a vast and expansive welfare state, and governments at all levels have no problem implementing left-wing policies, especially in local politics. The city of LA, for example, has passed a law banning all plastic bags. In my liberal Democrat Florida city, I can't remove the beaver in the pond out back, even though the rodent causes my yard to flood since the leftists think it has as much right as I do to live there. FFS, where I grew up in Canada, we'd either call the city to remove it or get rid of it ourselves. So again, if one thinks that both the Democrats and Republicans are similar, right-wing parties, one is way, way out on the far left of the political extreme.
 

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
8,252
19
38
Edmonton
Let's look at both the US Democrats and the Canadian New Democrats.

US Democrats want higher taxes on the rich, Canadian New Democrats want higher taxes on the rich.

US Democrats want higher government spending, Canadian New Democrats want higher government spending.

US Democrats want socialized medicine, Canadian New Democrats want socialized medicine.

US Democrats want gay marriage, Canadian New Democrats want gay marriage.

US Democrats want more environmental protection, Canadian New Democrats want more environmental protection.

US Democrats want gun control, Canadian New Democrats want gun control.

US Democrats want affirmative action, Canadian New Democrats want affirmative action.

US Democrats want access to abortion, Canadian New Democrats want access to abortion.

US Democrats want to end poverty, Canadian New Democrats want to end poverty.

US Democrats want more regulation, Canadian New Democrats want more regulation.

And so on.

Sure, there are differences, but there are a lot of similarities.

Of course, Democrats don't always get what they want. America is a right-leaning nation. Polls have continuously shown that the American populace is split roughly 40/40/20 conservatives/independents/liberals. It is also a country borne in the belief that the individual is paramount and sovereign, unlike Canada. But in states which are dominated by Democrats, i.e. California, they are far more liberal than the rest of the country, and are more left-wing than some Canadian provinces.

Also, one must be cognizant of political structures. Canada is essentially a democratic dictatorship. We have elections once every four years or so, and all the power is concentrated at the top. In America, power is far more diffuse, with legislatures having a plethora of rules, laws and constitutional bounds designed to create checks and balances, which can make it difficult for any one party to implement their agenda from the top down unless they have an overwhelming majority, not to mention the power of constituencies and lobbies that can make it difficult to implement their agendas.

Canadians tend to look at politics through the prism of healthcare, since it is intertwined in Canadian nationalism. (Never mind that every single other developed nation has some form of government health insurance, and that nearly half of all healthcare spending in America is funded by the government, but no matter.) But America has a vast and expansive welfare state, and governments at all levels have no problem implementing left-wing policies, especially in local politics. The city of LA, for example, has passed a law banning all plastic bags. In my liberal Democrat Florida city, I can't remove the beaver in the pond out back, even though the rodent causes my yard to flood since the leftists think it has as much right as I do to live there. FFS, where I grew up in Canada, we'd either call the city to remove it or get rid of it ourselves. So again, if one thinks that both the Democrats and Republicans are similar, right-wing parties, one is way, way out on the far left of the political extreme.

I'm sure you could go on listing supposed differences between Democrats and Republicans forever, but let's look at the facts. In spite of your long list of similarities between Canadian liberals and Democrats it is interesting to note that in the USA almost none of the policies you are pointing to have been carried out. Surely the Republicans could not have blocked all of these reformers in every state. What that indicates to me, is that Democrats really don't want any of these changes or are afraid to institute them, which is really the same thing.

What has happened in the US is a well-recognized phenomenon in a two party system. Where there is no third party to threaten the dominance of the two established parties they both tend to move toward the political center. Oh, there are some differences between individuals in each party to be sure, after all they are composed of people not machines, but in general they will adopt positions on most issues that are very similar. Take a look at the current situation in the US where neither of the major parties did a thing to avoid the economic disaster that hit the US in 2008. Also note that the supposed left wing Democrats proposals for tax reform are hardly radical. If adopted it would still eave the ultra-wealthy paying only a fraction of what they can afford and what the US needs to deal with its national debt.

And then there is the matter of religion; a subject that infuses US politics. No other modern democracy cares about the religious beliefs or church attendance of those running for office. Religion is a definite conservative characteristic.

Also the Democrats barely approach the centrist Liberals in Canada; they certainly bear no resemblance to the left wing New Democrats, a party that proudly uses the word "socialist" to describe itself. I will agree with you on some points, but only if you put the modifier "some" in front of all of your points regarding Democrats. Only then would it be accurate.

Also without going into details, Canada is actually more democratic than the US in spite of all of the supposed checks and balances that exist in the US system to insure democracy. Why is it for example that Canadians can actually criticize their own institutions or the actions of their governments without being labelled "unCanadian" or "communist" and having people threaten to destroy their livilihood or even inflict bodily harm? Remember the Dixie Chicks and other Americans who dared to criticize the policies of the Bush administration?

As I said before what you have in the US is a situation with two identical parties pretending to be different. We had the same situation in Canada with the Liberals and Progressive Conservatives fighting it out, but essentially instituting policies that were almost identical in spite of their presented differences. The situation still exists; the Conservatives under Stephen Harper haven't really done anything really different from what the Liberals under Jean Chretien and Paul Martin were doing. New Democratic leader Tommy Douglas used to refer to them as "Tweedledee and Tweedledum" and he was pretty much dead on.

I'll leave you with this article comparing Republicans and Democrats. BTW it is not difficult to find dozens of such articles on the internet, indicating that many Americans have the same opinion of their government that I do.

The Similarities of Democrats and Republicans