B.C. Supreme Court upholds ban on polygamy

[CyberSailor]

This court case was all about Bounty under the guise of it being about polygamy.

I kind of see it the same way as how they finally took down Capone. Tax evasion is not why they wanted to take him down, but it worked so they took it.

Polygamy has been a thorny issue for almost 3000 years legally. Ancient Rome and Greece had laws against it. At times and in certain countries, those convicted could be executed. Religions both condemn and condone the practice.

If you really want a good education about polygamy in the real world, read the complete decision of the BC supreme court. You may not agree with the decision, but you will clearly see how it was arrived at. The court had to balance freedom against harm. The evidence of harm is legion: The restriction of freedom is marginal.

The complete text of the decision is at http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/01344/Polygamy_reference_1344799a.pdf . It is a long read, but you will be better informed if you even skim through the issues.

 

[TenPenny]

The vast vast majority of polygamy in Canada is religiously based.

The vast majority of marriage in Canada is religiously based.

 

[Kreskin]

As a bisexual female I can't help but think if I entered into a polygamous relationship, I fail to see how I'd be less equal than the man. You guys keep trying to paint polygamy with the brush that religions use. That's not the only definition.

Would bi-sexuals all be married to each other, i.e. your share of you bi counterpart's assets are equal to that between her and him? Is that how polygamy works, everyone shares each other personally and financially? I don't know the exact contractual arrangement of a polygamist marriage so am curious if it's set up to be entirely equal.

What happens when one wants a divorce? Do they leave with an equal split of all assets? Who gets the family home when one of 5 leaves and the others can't remortgage to pay them out?

Who gets custody of the kids? Does it matter who birthed the children? Would the man and three remaining wives get custody of all the kids, no matter who delivered them?

What if he wants to keep all his wives but three of the women want to get rid of the 4th? Is it voted by committee on who stays in or out? What if 1 woman wanted another out (the one who delivered all the kids) but 2 others wanted him out (and the 4th just wanted things to stay as they are). How is that mediated fairly?

 

[#juan]

Would bi-sexuals all be married to each other, i.e. your share of you bi counterpart's assets are equal to that between her and him? Is that how polygamy works, everyone shares each other personally and financially? I don't know the exact contractual arrangement of a polygamist marriage so am curious if it's set up to be entirely equal.

What happens when one wants a divorce? Do they leave with an equal split of all assets? Who gets the family home when one of 5 leaves and the others can't remortgage to pay them out?

Would bi-sexuals all be married to each other, i.e. your share of you bi counterpart's assets are equal to that between her and him? Is that how polygamy works, everyone shares each other personally and financially? I don't know the exact contractual arrangement of a polygamist marriage so am curious if it's set up to be entirely equal.

What happens when one wants a divorce? Do they leave with an equal split of all assets? Who gets the family home when one of 5 leaves and the others can't remortgage to pay them out?

I don't know what bi-sexuals do but generally, in a (can we say normal)regular marriage, everything is shared fifty/fifty. In a polygamous
marriage with two wives, the split would appear to be fifty/twentyfive/ twentyfive. I know this is simplistic but I don't think a divorce
in a polygamous marriage is going to be simple by any stretch. From what I have read about Bountiful, the women are expected to
do what they are told and shut up about it.

 

[VanIsle]

Would bi-sexuals all be married to each other, i.e. your share of you bi counterpart's assets are equal to that between her and him? Is that how polygamy works, everyone shares each other personally and financially? I don't know the exact contractual arrangement of a polygamist marriage so am curious if it's set up to be entirely equal.

What happens when one wants a divorce? Do they leave with an equal split of all assets? Who gets the family home when one of 5 leaves and the others can't remortgage to pay them out?

Who gets custody of the kids? Does it matter who birthed the children? Would the man and three remaining wives get custody of all the kids, no matter who delivered them?

What if he wants to keep all his wives but three of the women want to get rid of the 4th? Is it voted by committee on who stays in or out? What if 1 woman wanted another out (the one who delivered all the kids) but 2 others wanted him out (and the 4th just wanted things to stay as they are). How is that mediated fairly?

Your post is almost identical to one I posted I few days ago. We have the same questions and concerns. Funny how we both used the number 5. (I think that's what I used). Obviously I agree with you.

 

[gerryh]

I know of a few polyamorous relationships (MMF and MFF) and personally know one polygamous marriage. They are non religious and it is man with 2 wives.

I agree with those that have said that the decision is all about Bountiful with polygamy used as an excuse. This is not fair to true polygamist that don't use polygamy as a way around child marriage laws etc. The ignorance shown on this board and by the courts is astounding. The bigotry, however, is expected.

 

[Kreskin]

Your post is almost identical to one I posted I few days ago. We have the same questions and concerns. Funny how we both used the number 5. (I think that's what I used). Obviously I agree with you.

That's because I owe you a massage :lol:

 

[VanIsle]

I don't know what bi-sexuals do but generally, in a (can we say normal)regular marriage, everything is shared fifty/fifty. In a polygamous
marriage with two wives, the split would appear to be fifty/twentyfive/ twentyfive. I know this is simplistic but I don't think a divorce
in a polygamous marriage is going to be simple by any stretch. From what I have read about Bountiful, the women are expected to
do what they are told and shut up about it.

I don't think things could be 50/25/25. That leaves one of three with half. I think it would have to be split 3 ways equally - 1/3 each. I too have watched women from Bountiful and other places (Utah) and the horror stories they tell are something else. A lot of those women are terrified to speak out.

 

[Kreskin]

I know of a few polyamorous relationships (MMF and MFF) and personally know one polygamous marriage. They are non religious and it is man with 2 wives.

I agree with those that have said that the decision is all about Bountiful with polygamy used as an excuse. This is not fair to true polygamist that don't use polygamy as a way around child marriage laws etc. The ignorance shown on this board and by the courts is astounding. The bigotry, however, is expected.

You mean everyone is covered under the Alberta Family Law Act? How does it all work when things go sideways?

 

[VanIsle]

That actually sounds like any other normal divorce. Lots of lies about each other and all the families picking sides with the kids used as pawns and weapons. Please try to tell me this isn't seen in many situations with one husband and one wife? :roll:


Do I ever feel sorry for your hubby.

You claim ownership of him??? He's only allowed out with you or your sons??? You scream at him???

Seems to me it's all about you in that marriage and you are pretty controlling and that's just not healthy

I think I feel sorry for you. Where did I EVER claim that my husband is only allowed out with me or our sons? Read it again. I said that's what he does. I did not say it was MY choice. He has always done what he wants to do and while he used to play ball, curl, play in a band aside from his day job, he just quit doing any of it. In all truth - sometimes I wish he would go out and just give me a little space. "Space" to my husband is him downstairs watching TV and me upstairs watching something I want. Space to me is a near empty house with just me in it.
I never said that I screamed at him. I said WE have our screaming matches. He's 6'3" weighing in at 265 with a big voice. I am 5 feet tall. He doesn't take orders from me or anyone. Do I claim ownership? I do in that I call him "MY" husband because he is only my husband and he calls me "MY" wife because I am the only wife he has. We have never been married to anyone else and as I stated, we have had our ups and downs but after 45 years of marriage this March, it's doubtful either of us is leaving the other "until death do us part". So before you decide to pick at me and what I've said, read the post rather than skim through it. You know nothing of what has gone on in my life so don't be judge and jury. Believe me, you couldn't be more wrong about me.

 

[karrie]

Perhaps, but if you can name a fully polygamous society in which religion did not play a part please give us an illustration. Only the power of religion could convince the members of a society to agree to a system that is little better than a form of slavery.

Explain why I'd need to. We're not talking about fully polygamous societies, we're not talking about what's happened in the past. We're talking about the issue of disentangling polygamy from child marriage, and about giving consenting adults freedom over their own choices and lives, here and now in a secular country.

 

[VanIsle]

That's because I owe you a massage :lol:

Ready and waiting!!!!

 

[karrie]

I think where this all gets kind of muddy is in the optics. Most people don't see a guy with two wifes living a relatively normal life. What is seen is communities like Bountiful where there is obvious abuse. Separate a lifestyle from a cult and maybe there will be more understanding.

I know that's precisely why people get confused... what they seem to not realize is that without plural marriage, a cult like Bountiful will still be a cult. And without a cult, marriage still sometimes takes an unusual turn, especially in this day and age of blended families.

Would bi-sexuals all be married to each other, i.e. your share of you bi counterpart's assets are equal to that between her and him? Is that how polygamy works, everyone shares each other personally and financially? I don't know the exact contractual arrangement of a polygamist marriage so am curious if it's set up to be entirely equal.

What happens when one wants a divorce? Do they leave with an equal split of all assets? Who gets the family home when one of 5 leaves and the others can't remortgage to pay them out?

Who gets custody of the kids? Does it matter who birthed the children? Would the man and three remaining wives get custody of all the kids, no matter who delivered them?

What if he wants to keep all his wives but three of the women want to get rid of the 4th? Is it voted by committee on who stays in or out? What if 1 woman wanted another out (the one who delivered all the kids) but 2 others wanted him out (and the 4th just wanted things to stay as they are). How is that mediated fairly?

the fact that it's a complicated arrangement isn't justification for denying someone the right to live a complicated life.

 

[gerryh]

You mean everyone is covered under the Alberta Family Law Act? How does it all work when things go sideways?

No, and the polygamous relationship I know is in BC and they are not legally covered. But then, you know that. If the Courts would recognize polygamy as legal, then the legal issues of marriage, break down, asset distribution etc could be addressed. But, we can't be having that. The small minded bigots would prefer to keep these "freaks" in the closet.

 

[Kreskin]

I know that's precisely why people get confused... what they seem to not realize is that without plural marriage, a cult like Bountiful will still be a cult. And without a cult, marriage still sometimes takes an unusual turn, especially in this day and age of blended families.



the fact that it's a complicated arrangement isn't justification for denying someone the right to live a complicated life.

Knowing who would have the right to take my children is one complication that should be ironed out and not just left for whichever way the wind blows.

No, and the polygamous relationship I know is in BC and they are not legally covered. But then, you know that. If the Courts would recognize polygamy as legal, then the legal issues of marriage, break down, asset distribution etc could be addressed. But, we can't be having that. The small minded bigots would prefer to keep these "freaks" in the closet.

Well explain to the small minded who would get the kids and under what circumstances.

 

[gerryh]

Knowing who would have the right to take my children is one complication that should be ironed out and not just left for whichever way the wind blows.

and how can that happen when it is illegal?

 

[Kreskin]

and how can that happen when it is illegal?

Please outline the proposal.

 

[karrie]

Knowing who would have the right to take my children is one complication that should be ironed out and not just left for whichever way the wind blows.


Well explain to the small minded who would get the kids and under what circumstances.

Do you know right now who would walk away with your kid? No. that's all an issue for the courts, case by case, decided by mediators and judges.

And I'll add..... these family situations already occur, with no legal recourse. How is that better than providing some legal protection and the ability to seek mediation? It's not like North Americans are going to run out in droves and get three wives.

 

[talloola]

If adults want to live in polygamy, i'm sure there are many 'open' marriages that would give them that freedom, adults do make their own rules for their sexual freedom, and open marriages allow them that freedom.

but I would never go along with our government legalizing polygamy, that would increase many controlling
types of relationships like that, of bountifull etc.,(who would hide behind the law), and again the children being forced into marriage, and boys
being thrown out of their homes because of competition would increase, and it would be very difficult, as it
is now to protect those minors, and there would be many more of them if it was legal.

Its all about minors and abuse of children including young teenagers, and if that was taken care of,
then bountifull and others like them would have no power to treat those minors like slaves and not allow them to grow up and make their own decisions.

If people want to leave those groups they have to 'escape', and as soon as one has to use that term, there
is definitely something wrong.
Children must be allowed to grow up, and choose to live a different life style than their parents if they
choose, and become an adult who makes his/her own decisions.
Polygamy would increase ten fold because it would bring into our country many
other nationalities who would take advantage of the law.

 

[Kreskin]

Do you know right now who would walk away with your kid? No. that's all an issue for the courts, case by case, decided by mediators and judges.

And I'll add..... these family situations already occur, with no legal recourse. How is that better than providing some legal protection and the ability to seek mediation? It's not like North Americans are going to run out in droves and get three wives.

Yes, equal access. You want to split equal access with 5 others? That's good for your children?