What do we think now?

[JLM]

Taloola said a lot more than just that, and you quoted her entire post.

I quite often quote the entire post unless it's one sentence or so I'm trying to zero in on, however rereading her post there was nothing in it that I disagreed with particularly, while it certainly didn't apply to everyone what she described was typical family life at the time. :smile:

Kids today can be really nice kids and they can be really bad. You say what's so different then and I say - because in my time of growing up, we didn't lip off adults when our folks were not around to hear or see us. The rules still applied. You can't say the majority of kids are no different than kids ever were. You weren't there with us.

There was one other big difference in those day- CHORES, but a lot of those disappeared as we progressed from wood burning ranges and heaters and I guess as families moved from rural to urban areas the vegetable gardens weren't as common , but it wasn't uncommon for me to spend part of my summer holidays hilling potatoes or thinning carrots or just weeding. All that stuff was good in that it kept us out of mischief and on rare occasions we got a little pocket money. When I was quite small I got two bits a week for keeping the kindling box full. If you mentioned the word "kindling" to a kid today you'd probably get a weird look. Anyway it was all good in that we learned a work ethic & learned how to manage what money we got. :lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

[talloola]

Taloola said a lot more than just that, and you quoted her entire post.

I said society was at fault and also partly to blame were the 'couples', society actually is people,
couples are people, it's really all the same.

 

[gerryh]

of course it is.

 

[talloola]

of course it is.

so, what's the arguement, there isn't any. move on

 

[gerryh]

that's right...no argument... things were 100% better in '59 than now...... more respect, no drugs, no swearing, safer........ everything has just gone to hell in a hand basket.......


now....I wonder why kids don't have the respect they used to....... not taught properly maybe?....... who dropped the ball on that I wonder...........well........that would lead right back to te generation that is whining about it. surprise, surprise, surprise.

 

[JLM]

I said society was at fault and also partly to blame were the 'couples', society actually is people,
couples are people, it's really all the same.

A lot of it also has to do with money lenders making borrowing so easy (often at an exorbitant price) and some people just couldn't resist the temptation to buy the gold faucets etc. I guess to put it succinctly you could call it corporate greed. :lol::lol::lol:

that's right...no argument... things were 100% better in '59 than now...... more respect, no drugs, no swearing, safer........ everything has just gone to hell in a hand basket.......


now....I wonder why kids don't have the respect they used to....... not taught properly maybe?....... who dropped the ball on that I wonder...........well........that would lead right back to te generation that is whining about it. surprise, surprise, surprise.

I don't think you can attribute it to any one thing Gerry. All I can speak for is what happened at my location and time frame. One big difference in those days was the parents backed the teachers a lot more. I got strapped a couple of times in school for being a bad little bugger (actually one time it was the other kid's fault, he got me down on the ground and started pounding me and I up with my boot and kicked him in the back of the head)- my whole face was bleeding like a stuck pig, but didn't make any difference we both got strapped. Anyway most strappings taught us a valuable lesson and you just prayed the old man never found out. Nowadays the teachers don't dare lay a hand on dear little pure white Johnny- Huge mistake. :smile:

 

[gerryh]

A lot of it also has to do with money lenders making borrowing so easy (often at an exorbitant price) and some people just couldn't resist the temptation to buy the gold faucets etc. I guess to put it succinctly you could call it corporate greed. :lol::lol::lol:



I don't think you can attribute it to any one thing Gerry. All I can speak for is what happened at my location and time frame. One big difference in those days was the parents backed the teachers a lot more. I got strapped a couple of times in school for being a bad little bugger (actually one time it was the other kid's fault, he got me down on the ground and started pounding me and I up with my boot and kicked him in the back of the head)- my whole face was bleeding like a stuck pig, but didn't make any difference we both got strapped. Anyway most strappings taught us a valuable lesson and you just prayed the old man never found out. Nowadays the teachers don't dare lay a hand on dear little pure white Johnny- Huge mistake. :smile:

and again...which generation started the ball rolling with all of that?

 

[JLM]

and again...which generation started the ball rolling with all of that?

There's probably enough blame to spread among two or three generations. Different sh*t happened at different times. It probably all got started back around the end of the war. 50s were prosperous times for many and that's when some people started to get a taste of luxury not seen since the mid 20s.

 

[talloola]

that's right...no argument... things were 100% better in '59 than now...... more respect, no drugs, no swearing, safer........ everything has just gone to hell in a hand basket.......


now....I wonder why kids don't have the respect they used to....... not taught properly maybe?....... who dropped the ball on that I wonder...........well........that would lead right back to te generation that is whining about it. surprise, surprise, surprise.

Well it seems to me if I think back a long way, my generation as a young person was more casual and
able to speak our mind more than the generation before us, but still had not arrived at a point where we would
totally drop our respect for 'having some class', especially around adults and out in public, and in school.

That is a huge diffeence in life today when it comes to kids and teenagers, and I don't like it at all,
at least how they come across in conversation and in public, I guess us older folks have to 'all' die off,
so that they can all swear and curse and give the finger to everyone and anyone forever, but just wait till
they are older and the young people behind them are even 'worse', what comes around goes around, and if
they don't care, the kids coming after them won't care even more.

The language the kids and teenagers use is deplorable, when I was at that stage, most of the guys swore
a lot, but not in front of adults, girls or in school, it was not allowed in school, and it wasn't 'cool' to
talk that way in front of girls and adults, and when a guy would drop the F bomb by accident in front
of me, he would immediately apologize, and all would feel a little uncomfortable for a short time.
What's the point of them doing that now, the girls have filthy mouths too.

So, what scares me is, 'what's next', as it will keep changing, and it never seems to be for the better.

There are still smart, dumb, shy, brilliant, uninterested, jocks, nerd kids out there, just like there used to be, but their social behavior, and
behavior toward adults is sickening, and the use of drugs is very scary. I apologize to the few who are not
like that, there are some, and it is so refreshing to chat with them.

My husband and I coached and managed girls fast pitch and also girls/women hockey, and I would 'not' allow
any of them to say the F word on the field or on the ice, or dressing rooms. They tried to tell me that
everyone said it, and it was OK, not with it wasn't, so I told them to think of a substitution word for
anytime they felt they had to say it, so they 'just' didn't say it at all, at least within earshot of me.

 

[gerryh]

YouTube - Bye Bye Birdie - What's the Matter With Kids Today

 

[VanIsle]

that's right...no argument... things were 100% better in '59 than now...... more respect, no drugs, no swearing, safer........ everything has just gone to hell in a hand basket.......


now....I wonder why kids don't have the respect they used to....... not taught properly maybe?....... who dropped the ball on that I wonder...........well........that would lead right back to te generation that is whining about it. surprise, surprise, surprise.

No gerry that's not true. I don't know what happened for sure but I have to assume the worst enemy (if that's what we should call it) is the double income family. Something had to give and it was the family. My kids were not rude to adults, nor did they swear and all that trash talk around us. Did they test us? Of course. Did it work? NO! I worked but I never went to work until our youngest was 9 yrs. old and I didn't always work. For their early years, they had me at home. Sometimes it does seem like many things in our world have gone to hell in a hand basket. I don't think I can blame it on parental greed. To a certain degree there is a little parental neglect. Everyone is built to handle only so much. I see one of my sons and his wife running all over the place trying so hard to be the perfect parents. They spend hundreds of $ for hockey and baseball. They spend about the same for the other on dancing/piano and baseball. I'm sure there are days when they must think they are sleep walking they are up so early and their day is so long. In the midst of all that going on they try to fit in swimming/skating lessons and they are trying to get out camping. I see the kids are thriving to a point. I look at my grandson and how busy he is and while he has friends, I think that for the most part, many of them are not "good" friends. Some of the kids he plays with are little snots and I have to wonder what he is like sometimes. I know that when I go to the school which is more than half the school week, he pretends he doesn't see me yet if I show up at a hockey game, he's right over to thank me for coming to his game. I know him and his cousin can get into some real wars with each other - here at my house.
My kids played sports too but we spaced them out. We didn't have overlapping sports or back to back sports. Where is the real family time? Then there is another side where my other son is a single father and it seems like the most he does with his kids is take them for drives and to the beach and camping. He's broke so he cannot put them in events. We help as much as we can but even we can only do so much and "Mama" isn't inclined to be on the scene much. His kids are not socialized at all. I don't know how we do that. I've never seen it before. The sad truth is when we were kids, children like his oldest son with CP were kept at home and pretty much hidden from the rest of the world. That was the shame of the generation before mine.

I guess in the end I would blame banks for interest rates, government for not regulating things more. Life was better before two income families became the norm and Mom's were home to raise their own children. It may not be what people want to hear but it's true. Some people are good at spacing their time out so that they can work, spend time with their kids and put them into some sports.
I don't think my generation and yours, is responsible. I'm not old enough to be your Mother so we are of the same generation. It happened in the generation following ours and while your kids may not fit into the same generation as my kids do, it's my kids generation I would blame. I don't have an answer. So many things, so many factors. Life is different. People are different.

 

[talloola]

One thing we haven't mentioned is, many mothers are'not' satisfied staying home looking after their
children. Very restless, feel like they are missing out on life, want more money, want more
outside connections, feel trapped at home, knowing many of their friends are out working and
they are not, and the actual everyday energy it takes to properly care for the children becomes
tedius and boring, and she resents the role she is in.

I think that has 'always' been around, but became more apparant later on, probably in the 60's
and on.

Some women are not good mothers, some women had children just because that was was expected of
them, and they thought they wanted them, but they were not satisfied 'staying' home, and that
is the beginning of the end for the kids, unless they happen to have a dad who can stay home,
and that doesn't happen but once in a million.

Sure the ideal situation is the mother staying home to 'properly' raise the children, the husband
out working bringing home the money to support the family, it is a great partnership, WHEN it works,
but it doesn't always work. As soon as one partner becomes unhappy with that partnership, and
begins to put a 'monkey wrench' in it, that again is the beginning of the end for the children.

I really don't like or respect the 'professional' couple who make lots of money, love their money,
their children are like pets, put them here, put them there, have a nanny care for them, and life
for this couple is all about 'them' and 'their' lives, you know life is short, live live live, oh
yeah, the kids, oh just give them more money that'll make them happy, now should we go to the bahamas,
or europe, the kids will be with the nanny, they will be fine.

There are so many different scenarios to raising children, and within every scenario there are successes
and failures, but the main ingredient for kids, is they know they are loved by their parents, completely.

 

[JLM]

One thing we haven't mentioned is, many mothers are'not' satisfied staying home looking after their
children. Very restless, feel like they are missing out on life, want more money, want more
outside connections, feel trapped at home, knowing many of their friends are out working and
they are not, and the actual everyday energy it takes to properly care for the children becomes
tedius and boring, and she resents the role she is in.

I think that has 'always' been around, but became more apparant later on, probably in the 60's
and on.

Some women are not good mothers, some women had children just because that was was expected of
them, and they thought they wanted them, but they were not satisfied 'staying' home, and that
is the beginning of the end for the kids, unless they happen to have a dad who can stay home,
and that doesn't happen but once in a million.

Sure the ideal situation is the mother staying home to 'properly' raise the children, the husband
out working bringing home the money to support the family, it is a great partnership, WHEN it works,
but it doesn't always work. As soon as one partner becomes unhappy with that partnership, and
begins to put a 'monkey wrench' in it, that again is the beginning of the end for the children.

I really don't like or respect the 'professional' couple who make lots of money, love their money,
their children are like pets, put them here, put them there, have a nanny care for them, and life
for this couple is all about 'them' and 'their' lives, you know life is short, live live live, oh
yeah, the kids, oh just give them more money that'll make them happy, now should we go to the bahamas,
or europe, the kids will be with the nanny, they will be fine.

There are so many different scenarios to raising children, and within every scenario there are successes
and failures, but the main ingredient for kids, is they know they are loved by their parents, completely.

My sentiments exactly, the whole thing is kind of ironic when you look at it and realize how many people are fooling themselves. With only one or two kids today women can swing taking a job on the side, so they can afford these one or two kids. When I was a kid and families on average numbered anywhere from 4- 8 or 9 kids and yet people were able to afford that many kids. The kids were happier too, there were no mal adjusted kids in our community. They could entertain themselves cheaply, I can remember kids spending all day Saturday "shooting marbles" and never got bored.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I guess in the end I would blame banks for interest rates, government for not regulating things more. Life was better before two income families became the norm and Mom's were home to raise their own children. It may not be what people want to hear but it's true. Some people are good at spacing their time out so that they can work, spend time with their kids and put them into some sports.

That is the problem, isn’t it? Do you decide for the whole society that life was better before two income families? If life was go good back then, why did women join the workforce in such large numbers (when they were given the chance)?

If most women were happy being housewives as you claim, surely all the freedom, all the rights granted to them should not have made nay difference, they would have continued to be housewives. Why then do women go into professions in such large numbers? My son tells me that these days in many medical classes more than 50% are girls.

This is similar to the argument the South used to make during the slavery debate. Their point was that most slaves were happy in their condition and if given the choice, most would be content to remain as slaves. The answer was, well then, let us give them a choice and see.

Your argument (that life was better when mom was home to raise children, and that most women were happy and contented with being housewives) is refuted by women themselves, who are participating in university education and in workforce in droves.

No doubt some women are happy being housewives, and they still can, they still have that opportunity. Marry somebody who is a high earner and stay with him for life, no matter what happens or what he does (has affairs outside etc.). Indeed, that is what used to happen in old days. Even if a woman knew that her husband was fooling around she still would stay with him, where was she going to go? Divorce was a taboo, there was no supporting network. The woman tolerated husband’s affairs and suffered in silence.

And if some woman wants to live that lifestyle today, she still can. The problem is many women don’t and they have freedom not to live such lifestyle today.

 

[TenPenny]

And if some woman wants to live that lifestyle today, she still can. The problem is many women don’t and they have freedom not to live such lifestyle today.

Quite so; however apparently these women who want to have careers are the cause of the downfall of society. Perhaps we should punish them, for the betterment of all.

 

[JLM]

No gerry that's not true. I don't know what happened for sure but I have to assume the worst enemy (if that's what we should call it) is the double income family. Something had to give and it was the family. My kids were not rude to adults, nor did they swear and all that trash talk around us. Did they test us? Of course. Did it work? NO! I worked but I never went to work until our youngest was 9 yrs. old and I didn't always work. For their early years, they had me at home. Sometimes it does seem like many things in our world have gone to hell in a hand basket. I don't think I can blame it on parental greed. To a certain degree there is a little parental neglect. Everyone is built to handle only so much. I see one of my sons and his wife running all over the place trying so hard to be the perfect parents. They spend hundreds of $ for hockey and baseball. They spend about the same for the other on dancing/piano and baseball. I'm sure there are days when they must think they are sleep walking they are up so early and their day is so long. In the midst of all that going on they try to fit in swimming/skating lessons and they are trying to get out camping. I see the kids are thriving to a point. I look at my grandson and how busy he is and while he has friends, I think that for the most part, many of them are not "good" friends. Some of the kids he plays with are little snots and I have to wonder what he is like sometimes. I know that when I go to the school which is more than half the school week, he pretends he doesn't see me yet if I show up at a hockey game, he's right over to thank me for coming to his game. I know him and his cousin can get into some real wars with each other - here at my house.
My kids played sports too but we spaced them out. We didn't have overlapping sports or back to back sports. Where is the real family time? Then there is another side where my other son is a single father and it seems like the most he does with his kids is take them for drives and to the beach and camping. He's broke so he cannot put them in events. We help as much as we can but even we can only do so much and "Mama" isn't inclined to be on the scene much. His kids are not socialized at all. I don't know how we do that. I've never seen it before. The sad truth is when we were kids, children like his oldest son with CP were kept at home and pretty much hidden from the rest of the world. That was the shame of the generation before mine.

I guess in the end I would blame banks for interest rates, government for not regulating things more. Life was better before two income families became the norm and Mom's were home to raise their own children. It may not be what people want to hear but it's true. Some people are good at spacing their time out so that they can work, spend time with their kids and put them into some sports.
I don't think my generation and yours, is responsible. I'm not old enough to be your Mother so we are of the same generation. It happened in the generation following ours and while your kids may not fit into the same generation as my kids do, it's my kids generation I would blame. I don't have an answer. So many things, so many factors. Life is different. People are different.

I think you've identified much of the problem. Many of your detractors will argue that we have more today and life expectancy is greater and medical advances are such that we are healthier. To that I would respond "more of what"? Material possessions, that are likely "owned" by the banks anyhow. Life expectancy measured in "years" is greater, but that is only one dimention of life. Healthier!!!!!!!! how? Patching up deterioration we've largely brought upon ourselves through greed and idleness? Does anyone consider all the disturbed and unfocused youth today. You've got it largely figured out VanIsle - keep hammering away - people with intelligence will see the light. :smile:

Quite so; however apparently these women who want to have careers are the cause of the downfall of society. Perhaps we should punish them, for the betterment of all.

No, TenPenny- you're targeting the wrong people to punish- it's the people advertising the easy money (to borrow to be repaid at huge interest) it's the marketing people with a lot of third rate junk for sale. It's the people advertising and doing the face lifts and tummy tucks to cover up a derelict and disease ravaged body- it's like painting a rusted out 1949 Vauxhall running on three cylinders with bald tires, leaking radiator and exhaust- hey but it looks good. :lol::lol:

 

[TenPenny]

it's the people advertising the easy money (to borrow to be repaid at huge interest) it's the marketing people with a lot of third rate junk for sale. It's the people advertising and doing the face lifts and tummy tucks to cover up a derelict and disease ravaged body- it's like painting a rusted out 1949 Vauxhall running on three cylinders with bald tires, leaking radiator and exhaust- hey but it looks good

That is the classic defence: it's never my fault that I spend too much/eat too much/drink too much/take too many drugs; it's someone else's fault for making it available.

I read recently that in the 1950's, approx 30% of one's income was spent on food; now it's approx 15%. I don't know how accurate those numbers are, but I would guess they're certainly indicitave of the trend - we spend less of our money on necessities. Just because people feel the need to live in debt, that's their problem, not mine. My wife and I like to live within our means - we have no mortgage, and never borrow money for cars. We keep our cars for 7 to 10 years, and then typically buy used.

People fall for the foolishness of $50,000 weddings, but that's their own fault for not resisting temptation. It was ever thus.

 

[karrie]

I studied the history of psych not too long ago, and will admit that without my text book on hand I can't recall precisely which philosopher it was, but he had a whole movement that spoke exactly the same as you guys do.... soceity was doomed, because the generations that followed them were immensely disrespectful. Family and society changing shape from what he had been familiar with would be the end of humanity. Lo and behold, it wasn't. I also recently watched a show with Valerie Pringle that points out a lot of what you guys say about how kids are ruder now... swear more... have less manners. But it balances that with pointing out that they are at the same time, innately civil. They treasure equal rights and freedom of choice in a way that previous societies haven't, and so what if they say **** while talking about the hockey game, if they're better people at the core?

 

[gerryh]

well..... ya's "almost" get it and then you start blaming others......it is no ones fault except our own. Not the advertisers, not the money lenders. 100% our own. It's called taking responsibility. No one can "make" anyone do anything.

 

[karrie]

well..... ya's "almost" get it and then you start blaming others......it is no ones fault except our own. Not the advertisers, not the money lenders. 100% our own. It's called taking responsibility. No one can "make" anyone do anything.

Fault. psh. It's happened all throughout humanity that one generation recognizes flaws with its own time, so it attempts to pass down a lesson to the future generations. Then it doesn't like the way that manifests, and it freaks out.

People didn't like that kids were molested in silence in the 50's, or that they were kidnapping targets. So we started educating kids on the importance of standing up for themselves, how they didn't need to 'respect their elders'... but we forgot to teach the balance of the lesson somewhere. So right now, strangers don't get respect, they don't have authority, because the past two generations have taught this one that they don't need it. Yeah, it's there in some kids, but is it the end of the world? is it THE defining trait of this generation? Hell no. Unless you think your generation were mythical creatures I suppose.