Hung Parliament in the UK: Sign of Things to Come in Canada?

Should the Liberals and New Democrats attempt to form a coalition to oust the Tories?

  • Yes

    Votes: 1 12.5%
  • No

    Votes: 4 50.0%
  • Don't know / Prefer not to respond

    Votes: 3 37.5%

  • Total voters
    8
  • Poll closed .

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
I read an interesting blog on The Hill Times today, and thought that given the recent coalition agreement in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, that Canadians might be more palatable to the idea of a coalition in Canada after the next general election (since the idea of a majority government seems to be an impossibility for at least the foreseeable future.

One of the most interesting passages I read was this:

‘...the absurdity of 70 per cent of the Canadian political landscape that believes in climate change, abortion, and same sex marriage being ruled by the 30 per cent who don’t.’


It would, of course, be entirely constitutional under our current system for any of the opposition parties, or any combinations thereof, to form a Government at the invitation of the Governor General. The most probable combination (based on political alignment) would seem to be Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition with the New Democratic Party.

So, my question is this:

Should the Liberals and New Democrats attempt to form a coalition to oust the governing Conservatives after the next general election?


Source
 

Liberalman

Senate Member
Mar 18, 2007
5,623
36
48
Toronto
That's what happens in a minority.

Even though the Conservatives won the elections in Ontario with the help of the NDP the Liberals formed the government.

It all about who controls Parliament and which party wants the power bad enough to make the deal
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
One of the most interesting passages I read was this:

‘...the absurdity of 70 per cent of the Canadian political landscape that believes in climate change, abortion, and same sex marriage being ruled by the 30 per cent who don’t.’
Interesting indeed, since there is not an independent consensus among the Opposition Parties members, on those matters. The Parties themselves may hold that as a platform issue. But it is egregiously absurd to think the Opposition Party members are 100% on board for each and every aspect of those issues.

It would, of course, be entirely constitutional under our current system for any of the opposition parties, or any combinations thereof, to form a Government at the invitation of the Governor General. The most probable combination (based on political alignment) would seem to be Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition with the New Democratic Party.
I hope you don't support this undemocratic, unethical nonsense Chris? I mean on the grand scale of things, this would out do anything the Conservatives have ever done wrong.

The very nature of the division between these Parties is how they were elected by succinctly different groups of the populace. Thus making any Coalition Gov't an unelected governing body.

It may be constitutional, but it would only remove all doubt about the moral and ethical bankruptcy of the LPoC, NDP and the BQ.
Should the Liberals and New Democrats attempt to form a coalition to oust the governing Conservatives after the next general election?
An unequivocal NO!

Any Party so much as entertaining the idea, isn't fit to sit in the House. I find it curious that you didn't make your feelings known. I find it interesting that you bring this up now, so close on the heels of the last attempted coup.

But I have to ask Chris, why? What is so bad about the CPoC that you would think whoring yourself politically is justifiable?

Seriously Chris, I'm sure you've seen my list of Liberal bad acts. The Bloc is a partisan political party, period. The NDP are so wacky, I wouldn't let them run a sideshow.

Now, please show me, prove to me, the Conservatives are so much more abhorrent then over 200 acts of unethical/immoral/criminal behavior, the separation of the country and an anti business/pro socialist regime. So that I would want them ousted in such an unethical manner. Make me want to subvert a duly elected Gov't, and replace it with a Coalition not elected by the people. Make me believe throwing democracy out the window is the right thing to do.

Make me a believer too Chris.
 
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Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
I read an interesting blog on The Hill Times today, and thought that given the recent coalition agreement in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, that Canadians might be more palatable to the idea of a coalition in Canada after the next general election (since the idea of a majority government seems to be an impossibility for at least the foreseeable future.

One of the most interesting passages I read was this:

‘...the absurdity of 70 per cent of the Canadian political landscape that believes in climate change, abortion, and same sex marriage being ruled by the 30 per cent who don’t.’


It would, of course, be entirely constitutional under our current system for any of the opposition parties, or any combinations thereof, to form a Government at the invitation of the Governor General. The most probable combination (based on political alignment) would seem to be Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition with the New Democratic Party.

So, my question is this:

Should the Liberals and New Democrats attempt to form a coalition to oust the governing Conservatives after the next general election?


Source

It would seem to me that a responsible Governor General would not hand power to a minority government. Either the party has a majority in the House, sufficient parties form a majority coalition, or Parliament votes in its Cabinet.

The option of a minority government should simply not be an option, and I hope the next GG will give it to a majority, be it party or coalition, for the sake of stability.

Let's look at it this way: If a party can neither get a majority nor form a majority coalition, then how can we honestly expect it to work with the other parties in the House in a constructive manner? Worse yet, how can we believe it can establish friendly agreements with other countries too?

I voted option 3 myself.

If the only thing the NDP and the liberals have in common is a dislike of the Conservative Party of Canada, such a coalition is guaranteed not to last.

Now if we were talking about parties with overlapping objectives for society, then maybe.

But if you wanted a coalition to be more effecive, you may want it to form prior to the election and run as a coalition so as to not split the vote. For example, let's say a Liberal-NDP coalition were formed prior to the next election, to take effect next election, then come next election, the two parties would merge as a coalition and run as such, with one candidate representing the coalition in each riding.

If that happened, the Conservatives would be in hot water. As for any party that has received any significant number of votes last election, the Greens would come closest to the CPC, and yet even tey are closer to the Liberals and NDP, and would choose if they had to to form a coalition with the Liberals and NDP. This would essentially leave the Conservatives with the Libertarian Party, or maybe the Christian Heritage Party, both of which are anathema to one another.The Canadian Progressive Party would have a hard time deciding whether to join the Liberal-NDP or the CPC. For all intents and purposes, the Conservative Party would be cornered.

Interesting indeed, since there is not an independent consensus among the Opposition Parties members, on those matters. The Parties themselves may hold that as a platform issue. But it is egregiously absurd to think the Opposition Party members are 100% on board for each and every aspect of those issues.

I hope you don't support this undemocratic, unethical nonsense Chris? I mean on the grand scale of things, this would out do anything the Conservatives have ever done wrong.

The very nature of the division between these Parties is how they were elected by succinctly different groups of the populace. Thus making any Coalition Gov't an unelected governing body.

It may be constitutional, but it would only remove all doubt about the moral and ethical bankruptcy of the LPoC, NDP and the BQ.
An unequivocal NO!

Any Party so much as entertaining the idea, isn't fit to sit in the House. I find it curious that you didn't make your feelings known. I find it interesting that you bring this up now, so close on the heels of the last attempted coup.

But I have to ask Chris, why? What is so bad about the CPoC that you would think whoring yourself politically is justifiable?

Seriously Chris, I'm sure you've seen my list of Liberal bad acts. The Bloc is a partisan political party, period. The NDP are so wacky, I wouldn't let them run a sideshow.

Now, please show me, prove to me, the Conservatives are so much more abhorrent then over 200 acts of unethical/immoral/criminal behavior, the separation of the country and an anti business/pro socialist regime. So that I would want them ousted in such an unethical manner. Make me want to subvert a duly elected Gov't, and replace it with a Coalition not elected by the people. Make me believe throwing democracy out the window is the right thing to do.

Make me a believer too Chris.

Though I'm not too fond of a Liberal-NDP coalition, I can say that in a democracy, the majority rules. Sure it can often degenerate to mob rule on either side of the spectrum, but still a majority coalition in the House has more legitimacy, at least democratically, than a minority party standing alone.

Then again, if such a coalition were built, chances are the Conservative Party would move left rather quickly. If that happened, maybe it could sweep up the Progressive Canadian Party and just become the old Progressive Conservative Party again. If that happened, the Green Party could potentially collapse with red greens going to the Liberal_NDP coalition and blue greens going to the new conservative party. Either that of the green Party would remain independent and take the centre votes.

Such a coaltion would cause a change as radical as when the Reform Party had swept to power.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
Though I'm not too fond of a Liberal-NDP coalition, I can say that in a democracy, the majority rules.
1, We don't live in a democracy. 2, I find it hilarious when people not unlike yourself tout the advantages of said democracy, as the will of the majority, only when it suits you.

Sure it can often degenerate to mob rule on either side of the spectrum, but still a majority coalition in the House has more legitimacy, at least democratically, than a minority party standing alone.
No it doesn't. If the people wanted them in power, they would be in power. Again, and for the record, the people grew tired of the unethical/immoral/criminality of the LPoC. The people do not want the heavy left socialism touted by the NDP, and I can guarantee you, the MAJORITY of Canada has no need of allowing a separatist movement to gain any form of political clout in Parliament.

Therefore, they would not be a democratically/duly elected Gov't. Full Stop.

The people rose up the last time they talked about this this. The people have spoken.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Then again, if the Green Party chose to remain independent and take the new centre, it would likely simply take many former Liberal Party votes and before you know it, there would no longer be a Green Party except in name only.

1, We don't live in a democracy. 2, I find it hilarious when people not unlike yourself tout the advantages of said democracy, as the will of the majority, only when it suits you.

No it doesn't. If the people wanted them in power, they would be in power. Again, and for the record, the people grew tired of the unethical/immoral/criminality of the LPoC. The people do not want the heavy left socialism touted by the NDP, and I can guarantee you, the MAJORITY of Canada has no need of allowing a separatist movement to gain any form of political clout in Parliament.

Therefore, they would not be a democratically/duly elected Gov't. Full Stop.

The people rose up the last time they talked about this this. The people have spoken.

In theory, there would be nothing to stop a Liberal-NDP coalition from forming. However, I could also see the possibility of such a coalition being wiped off the map come the following election. Such a coalition, though perfectly legitimate as a majority in the House, would likely be a blessing in disguise for the CPC.

I know i'm contradicting myself from a previous post, but you made me think about it more her. They probably would be creamed next election if they did this.

Or actually, it really is hard to say. Would they gain or lose form such a coalition? I guess only an election could answer that question.

But as for the people rising up, that was just a vocal group on Parliament hill and in the newspapers That still reveals nothing of whether they represent the majority or not, though they might, but simply being vocal alone does not prove that.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
But as for the people rising up, that was just a vocal group on Parliament hill and in the newspapers That still reveals nothing of whether they represent the majority or not, though they might, but simply being vocal alone does not prove that.
Yes, that's why the coalition went through with their plan...:roll:
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Yes, that's why the coalition went through with their plan...:roll:

There were a number of internal reasons they didn't go through. First off, the NDP and Liberals don't see eye to eye on many point either. And as for the Bloc, it wasn't formally a part of the planned coalition, thus essentially making for a minority coalition would would have been no more stable than the Conservative minority government. In fact it would have been less stable since at least the Conservatives had a united party whereas the other would have merely been a minority coalition.

To make such a coalition stable, the bloc would have had to become a full member of it, and that would simply have been unacceptable to either side.

The collapse of that coalition was caused more by internal issues than anything else.

Add to that that the main thing they were disputing was the funding cuts to political parties, making it look self-serving.And i could go on, but the point is it had little ot do with the protests, though I;m sure they played a minor role.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
There were a number of internal reasons they didn't go through. First off, the NDP and Liberals don't see eye to eye on many point either. And as for the Bloc, it wasn't formally a part of the planned coalition, thus essentially making for a minority coalition would would have been no more stable than the Conservative minority government. In fact it would have been less stable since at least the Conservatives had a united party whereas the other would have merely been a minority coalition.

To make such a coalition stable, the bloc would have had to become a full member of it, and that would simply have been unacceptable to either side.

The collapse of that coalition was caused more by internal issues than anything else.

Add to that that the main thing they were disputing was the funding cuts to political parties, making it look self-serving.And i could go on, but the point is it had little ot do with the protests, though I;m sure they played a minor role.
:roll:

Do you fully think out what you write before you write it?
 

wulfie68

Council Member
Mar 29, 2009
2,014
24
38
Calgary, AB
I have misgivings about coalitions in much the same way I have misgivings about crossing the floor to a different party. I know they're not strictly against the rules of parliamentary behaviour but both of these things seem to be intellectually dishonest: they seem to disregard the intent of the people who voted for the representatives. I don't agree with crossing the floor voluntarily: if a member finds they cannot abide by the restrictions of the party they ran under, they can choose to sit as an independent and seek the nomination of a different party before the next election. Likewise, if two parties think they have common ground for sharing power then why try to do it AFTER the voting public has already passed sentence on their resepective platforms?

When you add in the context of who would have to form the coalitions, any of the federalist parties would either a) end up forming one with their opposite (which won't happen because it calls into question the need for our partisan system) or b) form one with the Bloc, which I don't see playing well with the public. Probably one of the most memorable instances in the last decade was when Belinda Stronach crossed the floor saying " I won't vote with the Bloc to bring down the gov't". Cynically, we can say it was all about her trying to get the best deal for herself, but at the same time, the rhetoric played well to the public... and a lot of what happens in Ottawa is about optics and how things look in the press because too many people don't want to look deeply into what is ocurring.

If the NDP and the Liberals really feel they are ideologically that close, they should enter into negotiations to merge, as the Alliance and PCs did when they saw that they were splitting center-to-right votes in this country and handing the Liberals successive majorities almost by default.
 

YukonJack

Time Out
Dec 26, 2008
7,026
73
48
Winnipeg
Government coalitions are exactly like alliances formed between WWE wrestlers. As soon as there is the slightest shadow of suspicion, the knives come out and quickly shoved into an unsuspecting back.

As long as egotistical fringe parties with Napoleon-like delusional "leaders" insist on denying a clear 50% + 1 vote, we will always have to contend with this kind of nonsense.
 

Avro

Time Out
Feb 12, 2007
7,815
65
48
56
Oshawa
Government coalitions are exactly like alliances formed between WWE wrestlers. As soon as there is the slightest shadow of suspicion, the knives come out and quickly shoved into an unsuspecting back.

As long as egotistical fringe parties with Napoleon-like delusional "leaders" insist on denying a clear 50% + 1 vote, we will always have to contend with this kind of nonsense.

You watch WWE?

That explains everything.



Psst....btw...it's fake.:lol:
 

YukonJack

Time Out
Dec 26, 2008
7,026
73
48
Winnipeg
Avro, get your sausage back, you need all the nourishment you need. Mostly mental.

Please come up with any proof that the world of politics is any less fake than the world of WWE wrestling. At least the wrestlers don't have any power to steal money out of your pocket.
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
Actually, YukonJack, a ‘hung Parliament’ refers specifically to the legislature being elected with no single party holding a majority of seats. A ‘minority Government’ refers to having a single governing party with no majority of seats. A nuanced difference, to be sure, but it’s possible to have a hung Parliament without a minority Government (i.e., through the use of a coalition, as unpalatable as the thought may be to some).

CDNBear, coalition governments are recognised as a perfectly constitutional (and democratic) alternative to minority governments in all Westminster-style parliamentary democracies. There is nothing about a coalition government (notwithstanding popular Conservative Party propaganda) that would amount to a coup d’état; any party, whether it has three hundred seats, or three, has a democratic mandate to govern if it enjoys the confidence of the House of Commons.

I posted the particular combination above (i.e., a coalition between the Liberals and New Democrats) as the poll question because I thought that it might bring the most passionate debaters to the table. However, the thought of a coalition between the Conservatives and New Democrats is not entirely undesireable to me; it would continue to give the Liberals an opportunity to clean up the trainwreck that they have become, while tempering the social policies of the Conservative Party through the need to keep the New Democrats’ support.
 

YukonJack

Time Out
Dec 26, 2008
7,026
73
48
Winnipeg
Thanks, FiveParadox.

Your illuminating post proves once again that the Parliamentary system is totally anachronistic, atavistic and in desparate need of elimination, or at best a major reconstruction.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
CDNBear, coalition governments are recognised as a perfectly constitutional (and democratic) alternative to minority governments in all Westminster-style parliamentary democracies. There is nothing about a coalition government (notwithstanding popular Conservative Party propaganda) that would amount to a coup d’état; any party, whether it has three hundred seats, or three, has a democratic mandate to govern if it enjoys the confidence of the House of Commons.
That's all well and good Paradox, if we weren't talking about a coalition that didn't include a separatist movement.

Not to mention, what is acceptable, doesn't always denote what is ethical. IMHO.

I posted the particular combination above (i.e., a coalition between the Liberals and New Democrats) as the poll question because I thought that it might bring the most passionate debaters to the table.
It's also the less offensive.

However, the thought of a coalition between the Conservatives and New Democrats is not entirely undesireable to me; it would continue to give the Liberals an opportunity to clean up the trainwreck that they have become, while tempering the social policies of the Conservative Party through the need to keep the New Democrats’ support.
I find that just as offensive.

And you still haven't convinced me.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
That's all well and good Paradox, if we weren't talking about a coalition that didn't include a separatist movement.

Not to mention, what is acceptable, doesn't always denote what is ethical. IMHO.

It's also the less offensive.

I find that just as offensive.

And you still haven't convinced me.

If coalitions were not permitted just because there is a sovereigntist party in Parliament, elected by the people not always for sovereigntist reasons, then we'd have to call an election every few months or, alternatively, have Parliament in constant election mode as is the case now.