The Atheist Holy War

[ironsides]

Quoting CDNBear: "Unfortunately, the US has this nasty habit of projecting it's vision of morality outside her borders."

Now define "vision of morality" Is what we do that is wrong done because we think it is moral or is it just out of greed or some other reason? I really cannot see any difference in our (U.S. and Canada) basic morality. For the most part we believe in the same things. Of course we both do things for other reasons that could be construed as wrong by each other, but disagreements can be healthy, and projecting one's ideas is not wrong.

 

[CDNBear]

I am totally against Atheists imposing their objections and belief's upon anyone's religious beliefs. Saying the are against this religious symbol or another being publicly displayed. Getting prayer or a moment of silence banned from school classrooms. No belief in a religion is not a religion it is a choice and should not even be mentioned with religions of any kind.

I feel it's up to the individual. Feel free to believe in this or that, or not. I don't really care. But do not place it on me.

To that I mean, prayers in schools, nope. School should be for educating ones mind. Not their soul. If you feel that strongly about mixing the two. Find a school that adheres to your belief and attend, or force your kids to do so. If it isn't available, tuff sh!t, or build it yourself, with your own money.

Prayers before public functions, ie: sporting events, political venues, etc...errr...I don't like it, but as I said, this is a Christian society we find ourselves in and sometimes when in Rome, and all that.

I believe a healthy debate is in order. It puts both camps on display and allows those interested, to view the material at hand.

It's when debate is stifled, censorship becoming the weapon of choice, we find ourselves at the mercy of fundamental factionalism and no one wins in that theater of thought.

 

[ironsides]

Now lets get down to real problems. The term racist seems to be very loosely used here. There is only one proper way to use it. Between Democrats and Republicans, it is obvious that they are different species.

 

[ironsides]

"I feel it's up to the individual. Feel free to believe in this or that, or not. I don't really care. But do not place it on me."

Here you are exactly right, the prayer was a choice and was
non-denominational, staring out the window or doing nothing was also a choice. It had nothing to do with Christian beliefs 20 years ago, just a belief. They (Christians) just made it a cause it for their own reasons.

 

[CDNBear]

Quoting CDNBear: "Unfortunately, the US has this nasty habit of projecting it's vision of morality outside her borders."

Now define "vision of morality" Is what we do that is wrong done because we think it is moral or is it just out of greed or some other reason?

I hope you didn't take offense to that Iron, it was not meant in such a way.

Greed plays a healthy role in the matter, but it is not the only character in the grim past of Manifest Destiny.

I really cannot see any difference in our (U.S. and Canada) basic morality.

Some are subtle, but they do exist. We are a more Socialist a society, while the US is more Nationalist in nature. To name the most bold of differences.

For the most part we believe in the same things.

I agree, it is in how we share that with others, that we find error.

Of course we both do things for other reasons that could be construed as wrong by each other, but disagreements can be healthy, and projecting one's ideas is not wrong.

I agree, if only we were to share. It's when sharing turns to forceful suggestion, then coercion, to outright violence, that we find great malfeasance. No country needs a "regime change". Well perhaps the US, lol...;-)

The US has a tendency to wish to deliver American style democracy to the world. But unfortunately, some places in the world are not ready for it. I would say that that would include the US.

Again, this is an observation, not a condemnation. The US has brought upon the world, many a great thing as well. If necessity was the mother of invention. The US would be the Father. China of course would be the surrogate Mom, lol.

 

[CDNBear]

Now lets get down to real problems. The term racist seems to be very loosely used here. There is only one proper way to use it. Between Democrats and Republicans, it is obvious that they are different species.

:lol:

"I feel it's up to the individual. Feel free to believe in this or that, or not. I don't really care. But do not place it on me."

Here you are exactly right, the prayer was a choice and was
non-denominational, staring out the window or doing nothing was also a choice. It had nothing to do with Christian beliefs 20 years ago, just a belief. They (Christians) just made it a cause it for their own reasons.

You can not say that "The Lord's Prayer" was non denominational Iron. It ws most definitely a Christian manifestation. No matter what you do to it to make it more benign, it is still a Christian element.

 

[El Barto]

Faith is nothing more than a viechle. It's rarely ever based on truthes but the perception of them. One agrees with a faith and is taken for a ride for as long as the person sees that its heading to better horizons. In thier perception.
Science is also narrow in thier views. In the end it is all a cosmic joke.

 

[ironsides]

:lol:

You can not say that "The Lord's Prayer" was non denominational Iron. It ws most definitely a Christian manifestation. No matter what you do to it to make it more benign, it is still a Christian element.

No No, not the "Lord's Prayer", it was only said in Catholic schools. That is a Christian element. Sorry, I didn't think, you may have had it in public schools, we never did. When I went to school and my kids for a while it was just a moment of silence, till it was banned. Granted there were less denominations in my school back then. (Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, 4 Hindi and one Muslim.)

 

[ironsides]

Faith is nothing more than a viechle. It's rarely ever based on truthes but the perception of them. One agrees with a faith and is taken for a ride for as long as the person sees that its heading to better horizons. In thier perception.
Science is also narrow in thier views. In the end it is all a cosmic joke.

Seems about right.

 

[Ron in Regina]

No No, not the "Lord's Prayer", it was only said in Catholic schools. That is a Christian element. Sorry, I didn't think, you may have had it in public schools, we never did. When I went to school and my kids for a while it was just a moment of silence, till it was banned. Granted there were less denominations in my school back then. (Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, 4 Hindi and one Muslim.)

I went to a Public (not Catholic) School. Until they dropped this in the 70's,
we started each school day with the Lords Prayer, Oh Canada, and
God Save the Queen. Maybe it's just a Canadian thing...or maybe
a Western Canadian thing as we perhaps didn't get the Memo
out here on the Prairies to cut that stuff out until about 1977
or so...

 

[CDNBear]

No No, not the "Lord's Prayer", it was only said in Catholic schools. That is a Christian element. Sorry, I didn't think, you may have had it in public schools, we never did. When I went to school and my kids for a while it was just a moment of silence, till it was banned. Granted there were less denominations in my school back then. (Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, 4 Hindi and one Muslim.)

Like Ron said, it must be a Canadian thing.

 

[ironsides]

I went to school in New York, looks like they stopped the "Silent Moment, Pledge of Allegiance" about the same time down here also when my kids were in school.

 

[CDNBear]

I went to school in New York, looks like they stopped the "Silent Moment, Pledge of Allegiance" about the same time down here also when my kids were in school.

Ahhh, now you've brought up the pledge!

That's a whole other issue. It's removal is a travesty in my opinion.

 

[ironsides]

Ahhh, now you've brought up the pledge!

That's a whole other issue. It's removal is a travesty in my opinion.

That bothered me much more than the silent moment, and still does.

 

[CDNBear]

That bothered me much more than the silent moment, and still does.

That should never have been banned.

Like I said, the US is a Christian manifestation. Christianity is embroiled into the US' very soul. To remove the pledge for its Christian overtones, is to dismiss the very heart of the US. IMHO.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

That is the wrong place for religion, Dexter, religion does not belong in the gaps.

Agreed, but that's where a lot of people put it.

As long as religion restricts it self to Salvation, soul, afterlife, redemption etc., ...

Except that evidence-based thinking indicates those things have no reality outside human imagination.

 

[CDNBear]

Agreed, but that's where a lot of people put it. Except that evidence-based thinking indicates those things have no reality outside human imagination.

Hey Dex, how's trix?

I just wanted to ask you, how you feel about things like the prayer before the opening of Parliament, the Pledge of Allegiance and such.

You know I'm no God Wad, but even I the great Priest basher, see the symbology in their presence. Christianity is very much an important part of our history.

It should retain a place of honour in our present.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Agreed, but that's where a lot of people put it.

Agreed, Dexter. But that doesn’t mean reliigon belongs there (in the gap).

As long as religion restricts it self to Salvation, soul, afterlife, redemption etc., ... SJP

Except that evidence-based thinking indicates those things have no reality outside human imagination. – Dexter.

Again, I agree. However there is no way of proving these things one way or other. While I don’t think there is an afterlife, Salvation etc., there is no way I can prove that (I don’t think burden of proof is on me anyway). So religion always has the way out that nobody can positively know what comes after death, so religious viewpoint is as valid as any other.

In my opinion, that is the proper role for religion, one which does not conflict with science. When religion comes into conflict with science, religion, loses, but can do substantial harm before it will admit defeat.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I really cannot see any difference in our (U.S. and Canada) basic morality. For the most part we believe in the same things. Of course we both do things for other reasons that could be construed as wrong by each other, but disagreements can be healthy, and projecting one's ideas is not wrong.

It depends upon what you mean by ‘believe in the same things’, ironsides. If by that you mean we believe in democracy, freedom of expression, freedom of religion, diversity, tolerance etc., you may be right. When it comes to broader picture, we believe in the same things.

The Devil is in the detail. When we come down to detail, we don’t believe in the same things at all, Canada is much more liberal than USA. In Canada a majority is opposed to any restrictions on abortion (Canada has no law regarding abortion, abortion is permitted under all circumstances), opposed to death penalty, majority supports gay marriage, multiculturalism etc. Americans do not support any of these things.

I think Americans are about 50:50 on abortion, strongly support death penalty, strongly oppose gay marriage. Americans do not believe in multiculturalism, your model is the melting pot, rather than the mosaic (which is the Canadian model).

So when we come down to nitty gritty, there is plenty of difference between Americans and Canadians.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

No No, not the "Lord's Prayer", it was only said in Catholic schools. That is a Christian element. Sorry, I didn't think, you may have had it in public schools, we never did. When I went to school and my kids for a while it was just a moment of silence, till it was banned. Granted there were less denominations in my school back then. (Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, 4 Hindi and one Muslim.)

Ironsides, in Canadian public schools they used to have Lord ’s Prayer and readings from the Bible. While it was OK when the society was predominantly Christian (pity the poor Jews), it is totally inappropriate in a multicultural society. We got rid of both and good riddance.