The Proudest Hour of the Prolife Movement.

[SirJosephPorter]

I'm unaware of any scientific principle that states life begins at birth.

I quite agree, Coldstream. Science does not say that life begins at birth.

In fact just the opposite, any real scientist KNOWS that life, the organic development of the adult individual begins at conception and continues in an uniterruped fashion before and after birth, which is an external condition that only affects the environment in which that occurs.

The real scientist does not ‘KNOW’ anything, that is the prerogative of religion. The real scientist formulates a hypothesis, tests it with experiment and forms tentative conclusions, which are subject to modification dependent upon further experimental evidence.

Scientists don’t know when the life begins. Life is a continuum with no beginning or end. Conception is purely an arbitrary point; three is no scientific basis to think that life begins at conception. Even before conception the human sperm is every much alive. Life predates conception.

And anyway, can you define what is meant by ‘life’? It is very difficult to define life. Any definition includes a few inanimate objects and leaves out a few living ones. If we cannot define precisely what is meant by life, it is meaningless to talk when it begins.

 

[Cannuck]

Hey coldstream- my wife had to have 2 consecutive abortions (early term) cos the pregnancy was going to KILL her. I don't care about anyones "faith" or "beliefs" but if ANYONE had stepped in and tried to stop the docs from saving her by ending the obviously failed pregnancy, well let's just say she would not have been the only one to die either time (tho I guess if she'd died the first time the second wouldn't have happened and there'd be a tiny, deformed fetus on life supposrt somewheres along with a pile of dead fundies and one dead mabudon)

Maybe she should eat meat.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Those who deny that life begins at conception and insist that it starts at birth, the next step will be that life begins when a child can read. Or when a child is old enough to leave parental home. Or whenever!

Prior to those events, the lifr of that life is subject only to the convenience of the "mother". So, abort, butcher and kill away!

We know the prolife motto, Yukon. Life begins at conception and ends at birth.

 

[Cannuck]

I thought you were going to stop the personal attacks.

Did I say that? I don't recall....

It just makes you look like a twit.

Hey, isn't that as personal attack. I guess I don't have to tell you what they say about personal attacks.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I thought you were going to stop the personal attacks. It just makes you look like a twit.

A leopard never changes his spots, Cliffy. A Troll will behave like a Troll.

 

[johnnyhangover]

I think life begins at conception. But the real question is when do we give that life rights? my sperm is alive, I still relegate it to a Kleenex every now and again, it's got no rights.
I think that until a human is developed enough to live under its own power and out of the womb, it's at the mercy of the provider, namely mommy. She can do as she wishes with her body.

 

[Cannuck]

A Troll will behave like a Troll.

Yes you will.

 

[Cannuck]

I think life begins at conception. But the real question is when do we give that life rights? my sperm is alive, I still relegate it to a Kleenex every now and again, it's got no rights.
I think that until a human is developed enough to live under its own power and out of the womb, it's at the mercy of the provider, namely mommy. She can do as she wishes with her body.

Does that include tequila shots and shooting crack?

 

[YukonJack]

"We know the prolife motto, Yukon. Life begins at conception and ends at birth."

And we all know the pro-abortion motto, SirJosephPorter. Life never begins, never ends, no morality, no decency, screw away at your hearts content, get the tax-payer pay for your indulgences.

Good chance that Tiller cosied up to Mao, Hitler, Pol Pot and Stalin in Hell already. With his apologies that he only killed 60,000.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Why is it that our society condones killing and murder in some cases and gets all bent out of shape in others? Because we are hypocritical. Our brains are so compartmentalized that one cell doesn't know what the others are thinking and doing.

Cliffy, the reason for this is that in the name of opposing abortion, a small but noisy minority gets to impose its views on the rest of the society. One can claim high moral ground, interpret Bible to mean that God forbids abortion (even though Bible does not mention the word abortion anywhere) and gets to dictate the rest of the society (especially women) how they must behave.

Anyway, have you noticed how prolifers are opposed to life in most other situations except abortion? Most of them support death penalty, most of them are eager to go to war. Prolifers enthusiastically supported the Iraq war, which resulted in the death of 4000 Americans and half a million Iraqis. Indeed, prolifers have not come across a war they did not like. They are opposed to helping the poor (they think government should get out of welfare, it should be left to the Church). If the poor die of starvation in the third world, that is just too bad.

It is al about imposing one’s personal views upon the rest of the society.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Good chance that Tiller cosied up to Mao, Hitler, Pol Pot and Stalin in Hell already. With his apologies that he only killed 60,000.

Yukon, so does that mean that you agree with the prolife bloggers who think that killing of Dr. Tiller was a great victory?

 

[coldstream]

I'm unaware of any scientific principle that states life begins at birth.

I quite agree, Coldstream. Science does not say that life begins at birth.

In fact just the opposite, any real scientist KNOWS that life, the organic development of the adult individual begins at conception and continues in an uniterruped fashion before and after birth, which is an external condition that only affects the environment in which that occurs.

The real scientist does not ‘KNOW’ anything, that is the prerogative of religion. The real scientist formulates a hypothesis, tests it with experiment and forms tentative conclusions, which are subject to modification dependent upon further experimental evidence.

Scientists don’t know when the life begins. Life is a continuum with no beginning or end. Conception is purely an arbitrary point; three is no scientific basis to think that life begins at conception. Even before conception the human sperm is every much alive. Life predates conception.

And anyway, can you define what is meant by ‘life’? It is very difficult to define life. Any definition includes a few inanimate objects and leaves out a few living ones. If we cannot define precisely what is meant by life, it is meaningless to talk when it begins.

There is NO question that science defines life as starting at conception. That is a verifiable fact. But science defines life as a sovereign living entity, separate from the mother and developing in accordance with its own genetic code, which it undoubtedly is.

You are not discussing Life, you are discussing 'personhood', the legal construct that has developed around the abortion issue, which accords constitutional rights and protections to 'a person', in order to override the guarantees of equal protection for the infant. Define the fetus as something other than a 'person' and the legal problem is solved. You are then not dealing with a person. The moral problem is left unattended.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I think life begins at conception. But the real question is when do we give that life rights? my sperm is alive, I still relegate it to a Kleenex every now and again, it's got no rights.
I think that until a human is developed enough to live under its own power and out of the womb, it's at the mercy of the provider, namely mommy. She can do as she wishes with her body.

Quite right, Johnny. Let us leave aside question of when life begins (I think that question is above everybody’s pay grade, as Obama put it). I also draw the line at fetal viability, same as you do.

I personally wouldn’t mind some restrictions on abortion after fetal viability. But as I have said before, currently very few doctors in Canada will perform abortion after fetal viability. So if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. I would be opposed to digging up the abortion issue, which would lead to divisive, prolonged, internecine debate.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

There is NO question that science defines life as starting at conception. That is a verifiable fact.


That isn t the scientific view, Coldstream. Show me papers in reputable journals such as Nature, Lancet, New England Journal of Medicine, etc. which say that life begins at conception. Or any textbook on science will do.

The scientific view is that life is a continuum, with no beginning or end.

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[YukonJack]

"Yukon, so does that mean that you agree with the prolife bloggers who think that killing of Dr. Tiller was a great victory?"

Not at all,SirJosephPorter!. Murder is MURDER, wheter it is done by a vigilante or a "doctor".

Vigilanties did it, what, eight or ten times?? "Doctors", did it about 45,000,000 times since the Roe v. Wade 30+ years ago. (Tiller alone did it 60,000 times).

So, don't go ballistic on me. Or sanctimonious. Or pretentious. Or obnoxious. Or phoney.

 

[DurkaDurka]

Not at all,SirJosephPorter!. Murder is MURDER, wheter it is done by a vigilante or a "doctor".

Except abortion isn't "murder". try again.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Vigilanties did it, what, eight or ten times?? "Doctors", did it about 45,000,000 times since the Roe v. Wade 30+ years ago. (Tiller alone did it 60,000 times).

Sorry Yukon, doctors did it zero times. Abortion does not kill babies, that is only your personal opinion. The score is 8 or 10 against zero.

 

[L Gilbert]

In faith it is important to read the entire message. This statement is counterbalanced with Christ's admonition that 'those who are without sin should cast the first stone'.

So? What if people only read

 

[L Gilbert]

part of the entire Bible at a time.

The silly book seems to be arguing with itself frequently. It'd be nice of someone would condense it so it's clear and concise.

 

[L Gilbert]

I'm unaware of any scientific principle that states life begins at birth. In fact just the opposite, any real scientist KNOWS that life, the organic development of the adult individual begins at conception and continues in an uniterruped fashion before and after birth, which is an external condition that only affects the environment in which that occurs.

I am aware, though, there is a political lobby, and judicial rulings that arbitrarily define a 'person' as only existing from birth. Knowing though the character of politicians and judges in our society, this neither necessarily makes it right nor moral. These institutions are adept also at using their own blatantly skewed interpretations of science for their own political ambitions.

roflmao "Any real scientist"? That means any scientist you happen to agree with. The rest aren't real. Whatta laugh.