Question for Conservatives: why does the libertarian Party get so few votes?

[Machjo]

I don't identify with the right myself, but if I did, I'd likely lean Libertarian.

Considering that so many Canadians do in fact support the Conservative Party, I would like to know from the conservatives among you what it is that the Conservative Party has to offer that the Libertarian Party doesn't?

 

[Ron in Regina]

Is there a Federal Libertarian Party for people to get behind? The
Federal Conservative Party actually exists, so that by itself might
offer something that a Federal Libertarian Party doesn't?

I've looked, and found this: Libertarian Party of Canada: Letters
But that wasn't an option on my Ballot. No Candidate here to vote
for. If you run in my riding Machjo as a realistic alternative to Ralph
(the absentee MP) Goodale, I'll vote for you. I might actually be able
to reach you if the need arose...not so much with Ralph....
_________________

 

[Machjo]

Is there a Federal Libertarian Party for people to get behind? The
Federal Conservative Party actually exists, so that by itself might
offer something that a Federal Libertarian Party doesn't?

I've looked, and found this: Libertarian Party of Canada: Letters
But that wasn't an option on my Ballot. No Candidate here to vote
for. If you run in my riding Machjo as a realistic alternative to Ralph
(the absentee MP) Goodale, I'll vote for you. I might actually be able
to reach you if the need arose...not so much with Ralph....
_________________

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Ron, but there are a few problems with that:

1. I'm not sure I can call myself a libertarian, let alone a Libertarian. I like many of their ideas, but I'm not sure I agree with others of their ideas.

2. I'm not sure I'd want to run for a party. I've always prefered voting for independent candidates if they were available (not a guaranteed vote, but a plus), so why would I want to run for a party myself?

3. Though most of my views are conservative (fiscal and law-and-order), those of my views that are more progressive (support for strengthening the UN and internationalism) are stronger in that if I were forced to choose, I'd generally sacrifice my many conservative fiews for my more progressive ones. So I doubt many would support me in either the conservative or progressive camps. I used to want to go into politics, but once I'd realised that the only way for me to win would likely be to lie, I'd changed my mind. I wouldn't stand a chance as a candidated. Though I have a pragmatic streak, I have an idealistic one too that I would never abandon even if it meant losing my seat.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Well...silver lining and glass 1/2 full sort of thing...if you did run,
you'd at least have two votes assuming you voted for you too. 8O
_______________
:lol::lol::lol:

 

[Socrates the Greek]

I don't identify with the right myself, but if I did, I'd likely lean Libertarian.

Considering that so many Canadians do in fact support the Conservative Party, I would like to know from the conservatives among you what it is that the Conservative Party has to offer that the Libertarian Party doesn't?

Good day Machjo, in the last federal election, 37 people out of 100 voted conservative, that is a minority that will never become a majority. After Harper finishes spilling the red ink the 37 people who voted for the Conservatives may think twice in repeating that bad move, parking their precious vote with incompetent economists like Harper.

 

[Machjo]

Well...silver lining and glass 1/2 full sort of thing...if you did run,
you'd at least have two votes assuming you voted for you too. 8O
_______________
:lol::lol::lol:

Why thanks, Ron. But that's not a glass half full. That's a drop in the ocean. Having said that, though, I'd rather lose with two votes than lie my way to a landslide majority and then remain in power dowing whatever my constituents wanted of me even if I disagreed with it myself. Don't get me wrong, I believe in consultation and can change my mind on things. But until I'm convinced, I'll generally stick to my guns.

With that in mind, you could imagine me at an all-dandidates meeting consulting with the voters of course, but still telling them in their faces that I disagree with them. Not a heck of a vote-getter now is it.

 

[Machjo]

Good day Machjo, in the last federal election, 37 people out of 100 voted conservative, that is a minority that will never become a majority. After Harper finishes spilling the red ink the 37 people who voted for the Conservatives may think twice in repeating that bad move, parking their precious vote with incompetend inconomists like Harper.

Bear in mind though that those who voted for Harper were likely either:

1. True Blue Conservatives who jump when the party says jump.

2. Centrists who tossed a coin and went Conservative.

3. Libertarians who voted Conservative as a strategic vote.

4. Christian Heritage Party Members who were fooled by Harper's church-going propaganda (seems that lying is OK though) and voted Conservative as a strategic vote (so much for voting conscience, eh?).

5. Any other member of the right, moderate or extreme.

6. Intelligent voters who don't vote for party but for candidate and found the Conservative candidate for their riding to truly be a man of character (though I don't like Harper, I'm sure there are a few good Conservatives in the bunch. In fact, had Scott Reid been running in my riding, who knows, even though I'd normally not vote Conservative, I might have voted for him. The Conservative in my riding was an idiot!).

So if the Conservative Party goes down, it doesn't automatically mean that that 37% will suddenly start voting Liberal. Rather, they'd all go their separate ways along the divisions pointed out above. Some would just keep voting for candidates of character. Others would vote Conservative even if they knew their cadidate would lose. Others would experiment with other right wing parties, some would vote Green (the most economically conservative of the major leftist parties), and of course a few might go out on a limb and try out further left (for example, a fiscal conservative who is a pacifist could potentially vote Conservative just as easily as he could vote NDP!). But the collapse of the Conservative Party would in no way guarantee that that 37% would just all blindly shift to the Liberal Party like a bunch of bleating sheep.

In Fact, the Conservative Party's main threats at the moment would likely be the Libertarians as an alternative conservative party, the Christian Heritage (a Christian Right Party), and the Green Party (the party to its immediate left, the Liberal Party being to the left of the Greens). Sure the Liberals would get some votes, and might even form a majority government owing to vote splitting on the right. But that 37% would likely still be voting right for the most part, excluding a small percentage that votes candidate (they could just as easily vote for a member of the Libertarian Party as they could Communist if the guy's got some original ideas and can be trusted), or that has both right and left streaks in him.

 

[Machjo]

Scott Reid (politician) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's more on Scott Reid. Another point I like about him is that he's not afraid to break with party ranks, even if he is a member of the Conservative Party. This means he's likely never to be PM. But it doesn't matter. As an MP, he's doing a marvellous job. He'd voted against both the Liberals and Conservatives (i.e. his own party) when the Liberals passed the anti-terrorism Act in 2001. Truly a quality MP.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I don't identify with the right myself, but if I did, I'd likely lean Libertarian.

Considering that so many Canadians do in fact support the Conservative Party, I would like to know from the conservatives among you what it is that the Conservative Party has to offer that the Libertarian Party doesn't?

Machjo, let me give you the definition of conservative, liberal and a libertarian, as I see it.

Liberal – wants the government in the boardroom, but out of the bedroom.

Conservative – wants the government in the bedroom, but out of the boardroom.

Libertarian – wants the government out of the boardroom and the bedroom.

From this you will see that a libertarian is about equidistant from liberal and conservative. If you are a libertarian, there is really no need for you to feel any affinity towards the conservatives.

I assume a true libertarian would vote conservative or liberal, depending upon which issues happen to be important in that particular election campaign.

 

[Ron in Regina]

I voted for the guy (party...whatever) that promised to squander
away the least amount of money in vote purchasing promises at
the time...and that happened to be the Conservatives.

Would that be 7 in the list?

 

[Machjo]

Sorry Ron. That too.

 

[Machjo]

Machjo, let me give you the definition of conservative, liberal and a libertarian, as I see it.

Liberal – wants the government in the boardroom, but out of the bedroom.

Conservative – wants the government in the bedroom, but out of the boardroom.

Libertarian – wants the government out of the boardroom and the bedroom.

From this you will see that a libertarian is about equidistant from liberal and conservative. If you are a libertarian, there is really no need for you to feel any affinity towards the conservatives.

I assume a true libertarian would vote conservative or liberal, depending upon which issues happen to be important in that particular election campaign.

So if the Libertarians are in fact right in the middle, it's a surprise then that conservatives and liberals don't turn to the Libertarians as an alternative vote. Why is that? Poor marketting?

I would tend to classify the Greens as being economically conservative and socially progressive. That would put them a touch to the right of the Liberals, but still more liberal than conservative. Though the Greens are also a very cosmopolitan party (pro-UN and internationalist), much more so than the liberals and even the NDP. Perhaps we could say that the Greens are the left-wing party of choice for those who are more economically conservative than the Liberals but more cosmopolitan than the NDP.

So this would leave us with at least one party sitting between the Liberals and Conservatives by your definition (the Libertarians) and maybe the Greens (if we limit ourselves to their economic policies only). Certainly they should both be able to drive a wedge between the major parties. The only reason I could see them not having succeeded is marketting. The Greens are a progressive party with a conservative streak. The Libertarians are a right-wing party with a liberal streak. Though a co-alition is highly unlikely, they should still be able to market themselves to get more votes. If the Libertarians could eventualy become the major right-wing party in future and the Greens the left, they would likely find themselves able to find more common ground between each other than the current Conservatives do with the Liberals. Though I acknowledge that they would have their own squabbles too, like arts funding for instance, and the Greens are pro-UN while the Libertarians want out of the UN. But on economic policy, neither of them is particularly big on high military spending at least, which should win the support of fiscal conservatives and social progressives alike.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Machjo, the reason conservatives and liberals don’t turn to libertarian for votes is simple, there are very few true libertarians around.

Most libertarians are really conservatives masquerading as libertarians. I suppose libertarian sounds more respectable than conservative. They are not going to vote liberal.

But the true libertarian, the one who wants government out of all aspect of peoples’ lives are very few, and they could go either way. You are comparing libertarians with Greens, I would say there are a lot fewer libertarians than there are Greens.

Greens are a big enough constituency that the major parties do tackle green issues. But libertarians (by that I mean true libertarians, not conservatives masquerading as libertarians) is just too small a constituency for political parties to bother with.

 

[Machjo]

You're probably right, Joe. I know of at least one libertarian-leaning Conservative MP, though 'leaning' is far different than 'pure', and joining the Conservatives would seem to suggest that the only way libertarians can ever expect to be heard is to piggy-back on a militarily hawkish Conservative Party. Though the Liberals have been a little hawkish too in the last few years. The NDP is quite socialist, and so for me if I had to vote for a party, that would still leave me with either Libertarian or Green as the two real options. But it would take a non-militarist mindset to support either of them. And with the Libertarians believing in freedom even in trade, travel and other international matters and the Greens being pro-UN, you'd need a more cosmopolitan mindset too. Nationalists and militarists woudl have little interest in such parties. Perhaps there are too many of both for these two parties to have any real voice.

PS. Not everyone supports the Greens strictly on their environmental platform. In fact, from a strictly environmentalist point of view, the NDP fares better than the Greens, though it goes too far in my opinion.

 

[Machjo]

Actually, I'm quite conservative in some respects (e.g. pro-life, pro-capital-punishment), but progressive in others. Seeing how the left and right are so polarised, it seems Libertarian is a good compromise. Give up on the wargongering and in exchange give up on the welfare state, then just let society take care of itself.

 

[Cannuck]

So if the Libertarians are in fact right in the middle, it's a surprise then that conservatives and liberals don't turn to the Libertarians as an alternative vote. Why is that? Poor marketting?

I would tend to classify the Greens as being economically conservative and socially progressive. That would put them a touch to the right of the Liberals, but still more liberal than conservative. Though the Greens are also a very cosmopolitan party (pro-UN and internationalist), much more so than the liberals and even the NDP. Perhaps we could say that the Greens are the left-wing party of choice for those who are more economically conservative than the Liberals but more cosmopolitan than the NDP.

That's pretty much spot on and why I voted Green last time.

As for SJP's definitions, he needs to rethink them. Neither the Libs or the Cons want out of boardrooms or bedrooms. That's why I have a tough time supporting either. I tend to be libertarian and none of the big three parties appeal to me.

 

[Cannuck]

Machjo, the reason conservatives and liberals don’t turn to libertarian for votes is simple, there are very few true libertarians around.

Nonsense. The term libertarian is broadly used. I assume you equate "true" libertarians with anarchists. Not surprising since you equate true Christians with evangelicals. You really must buy an updated dictionary.

 

[Machjo]

I almost voted Green last election. I couldn't get a hold of the local NDP candidate so knew little about her. I won't vote for a candidate I dont know.

The Liberal Candidate was a party hack. I'd made the effort to go to his campaign office to ask him some questions. He pulled out the party book and read the answer out to me. Fer crying out loud, I could have found that from the Liberal Party Website!

As for the Conservative candidate, he wasnt in his office, so I left a message with the questions. The next day, some other guy calle me on the candidate's behalf, telling me not what the Candidate believes, but what the Party believes. Another party hack. Again, I could have got the same information from the friggin party website.

The Green Party candidate was the only one who showed... individual thought... In the end though, I still fond him to be a bit of a party hack too, sometimes looking up stuff in the Party book. So in the end, it was a blank ballot, spoilt ballot for me. Quite disappointed I was.

 

[Machjo]

If I had to vote for a party, maybe I'd vote Green. Maybe Libertarian. I do believe in a government sticking to the basics, and for me arts funding isn't 'the basics'. That's what I like about the Libertarian Party and dislike about the Greens. But I'd still vote Green over militarismany day. I'm not against war, but do believe in due process. We don't fight over non-existent WMD's or change the objectives of a mission from Bin Laden to Nation-building once we're there. The whole thing there is a sham. If there is a good reason to fight, fine, but stick to the objective, do it according to international law, and complee the mission and then get out. Do't play bait and switch with misison objectives.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Actually, I'm quite conservative in some respects (e.g. pro-life, pro-capital-punishment),

Machjo, that means you are not really libertarian. A true libertarian is pro choice; he doesn’t want government controlling the behavior of people. I imagine libertarian philosophy is neutral on death penalty.

But being prolife makes you a conservative, with perhaps libertarian tendencies. A libertarian is pro choice, is opposed to any restrictions on pornography (except child porn, of course), and is in favor of legalizing all drugs (not just marijuana). As for gay marriage, he wants government to get out of marriage business altogether, he wants government to only register civil unions for homo and heterosexuals.

He is opposed to any regulations of embryonic stem cell research. He doesn’t even want government to ban cloning.

It is all a part of getting government out of peoples’ lives. That is why there are very few true libertarians. From what you are saying, I don’t think you are one.