Life after death
- Thread starter moha66
- Start date
I disagree. The myth of Jesus is similar to so many myths that unless you are willing to say those too are plausible you're only demonstrating a faith based bias. The Jesus myth is every bit as strange as the Horus myth - one is not stranger than the other, therefore one is not more or less plausible. If Jesus could have existed then Horus could have too; bird head and all.
Maybe you think this is a straw man argument? It isn't because the case for Horus isn't any weaker than the case for Jesus. In order to be a straw man argument the case for Horus would need to be weaker and it isn't. What I am doing is drawing a parallel because they are so similar. The difficulty you're having IMO is that it is acceptable to believe in Jesus but not so for a bird headed man, therefore it seems more plausible to you. The trouble, though, is that hundreds of thousands of people (millions?) believed in Horus for a very long time. I think you are being persuaded by popular opinion.
Some scholars even go so far as to surmise that Islam was originally a Christian sect....
I don't have a lot of details on that yet...still looking into the matter...
Vanni Fucci, I think that is the correct assertion, Islam may properly be considered to be the sect of Christianity.
I think Judaism, Christianity and Islam belong to the same religious tradition. Jews started with the Old Testament. Christians accepted the Old Testament and supplemented it with New Testament. In this respect, Christianity may be considered a sect of Judaism.
Islam continued the transition. It accepted the Old and New Testaments and supplemented them with the Koran. Thus Islam considers both Abraham and Christ to be Prophets of the God, same as Mohammed. So just as Christianity may be considered a sect of Judaism, the same way Islam may be considered a sect, an offshoot of Christianity (like Mormonism).
A side issue is that all the three religions borrowed liberally from Hinduism, the oldest religion in the world.
Indeed, if you look at the major religions in the world, they have borrowed freely from each other, which makes perfect sense. If one is going to start a new religion, it makes much better sense to start with something that works (other religions) and go on from there.
I don't have a lot of details on that yet...still looking into the matter...
Vanni Fucci, I think that is the correct assertion, Islam may properly be considered to be the sect of Christianity.
I think Judaism, Christianity and Islam belong to the same religious tradition. Jews started with the Old Testament. Christians accepted the Old Testament and supplemented it with New Testament. In this respect, Christianity may be considered a sect of Judaism.
Islam continued the transition. It accepted the Old and New Testaments and supplemented them with the Koran. Thus Islam considers both Abraham and Christ to be Prophets of the God, same as Mohammed. So just as Christianity may be considered a sect of Judaism, the same way Islam may be considered a sect, an offshoot of Christianity (like Mormonism).
A side issue is that all the three religions borrowed liberally from Hinduism, the oldest religion in the world.
Indeed, if you look at the major religions in the world, they have borrowed freely from each other, which makes perfect sense. If one is going to start a new religion, it makes much better sense to start with something that works (other religions) and go on from there.
The difficulty you're having IMO is that it is acceptable to believe in Jesus but not so for a bird headed man, therefore it seems more plausible to you. The trouble, though, is that hundreds of thousands of people (millions?) believed in Horus for a very long time. I think you are being persuaded by popular opinion.
Scott Free, I think you have summarized my argument nicely. The reason the existence of Jesus is plausible and the existence of Horus the bird man is not plausible is that we see men everywhere today, but we don’t see a bird headed man, and we know they don’t exist. Bird headed man is very much a mythical creature, while a mortal man is not mythical; we see them all around us (what is more, we see men named Jesus around us today).
As to the popular opinion, I don’t care what popular opinion is. If I went by popular opinion, I would be a Christian, a Muslim and a Hindu simultaneously (since all these religions are believed in by about a billion people each)
I look at what to me seems to be plausible and what doesn’t. It has nothing to do with popular opinion. Anyway, I think we have discussed the subject in great detail, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on that.
Scott Free, I think you have summarized my argument nicely. The reason the existence of Jesus is plausible and the existence of Horus the bird man is not plausible is that we see men everywhere today, but we don’t see a bird headed man, and we know they don’t exist. Bird headed man is very much a mythical creature, while a mortal man is not mythical; we see them all around us (what is more, we see men named Jesus around us today).
As to the popular opinion, I don’t care what popular opinion is. If I went by popular opinion, I would be a Christian, a Muslim and a Hindu simultaneously (since all these religions are believed in by about a billion people each)
I look at what to me seems to be plausible and what doesn’t. It has nothing to do with popular opinion. Anyway, I think we have discussed the subject in great detail, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on that.
Borrow rather than think about it yourself. Makes sense. Why work more than you have to.
Sincere Regards. In my own opinion. All due respect.
J u s t a n o b s e r v a t i o n.
the god ( allah ) say :-
003.065
Sahih International: O People of the Scripture, why do you argue about Abraham while the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed until after him? Then will you not reason?
003.067
Sahih International: Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was one inclining toward truth, a Muslim [submitting to Allah ]. And he was not of the polytheists.
004.054
Sahih International: Or do they envy people for what Allah has given them of His bounty? But we had already given the family of Abraham the Scripture and wisdom and conferred upon them a great kingdom.
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/spirituality-philosophy/78613-prophet-ibrahim.html
the prophet Abraham built the kaaba was prophet Abraham
and prophet Abraham become before prophet Jesus
how can Islam from Christianity ?
Last edited:
ok
the prophet abraham built the kaaba not prophet muhamad
and prophet abraham come before prophet jesus
people of the scripture = jews and christians
Last edited:
FIRST:
The Torah revealed from God as light and guidance to the Children of Israel,
then the Gospel was revealed full of wisdom and parables,
then the Glorious Quran of God was revealed as a correction and confirmation of the past heavenly books: the Torah and the Gospel.
Jesus did not come to contradict the Law (or the Torah) of Moses, and Mohammed did not come to contradict either of the Torah and the Gospel.
There isn't any book, issuing from God, better than the Torah and the Quran: in the guidance, instructions and laws.
This is in the Quran 28: 48-49
The Torah revealed from God as light and guidance to the Children of Israel,
then the Gospel was revealed full of wisdom and parables,
then the Glorious Quran of God was revealed as a correction and confirmation of the past heavenly books: the Torah and the Gospel.
Jesus did not come to contradict the Law (or the Torah) of Moses, and Mohammed did not come to contradict either of the Torah and the Gospel.
There isn't any book, issuing from God, better than the Torah and the Quran: in the guidance, instructions and laws.
This is in the Quran 28: 48-49
فَلَمَّا جَاءهُمُ الْحَقُّ مِنْ عِندِنَا قَالُوا لَوْلَا أُوتِيَ مِثْلَ مَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَى أَوَلَمْ يَكْفُرُوا بِمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَى مِن قَبْلُ قَالُوا سِحْرَانِ تَظَاهَرَا وَقَالُوا إِنَّا بِكُلٍّ كَافِرُونَ . قُلْ فَأْتُوا بِكِتَابٍ مِّنْ عِندِ اللَّهِ هُوَ أَهْدَى مِنْهُمَا أَتَّبِعْهُ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
The explanation:
(But when there came, to them [: the pagan Arabs], the [messenger of the] truth from Us, they said:
"Why is [Mohammed] not given [miracles] like those which were given to Moses before?"
Did they not unbelieve in that which was given to Moses aforetime?
They say: "[The Scripture of Moses and the Quran are] two magics that have prevailed"; and they say: "Surely in both we are unbelievers."
Say [O Mohammed, to them]: "Bring a Book from God that gives better guidance than either [of the Law and the Quran], which then I will certainly follow, if you speak truly.")
SECOND:
The Quran came to glorify God, not to glorify people.
All people (including the prophets and apostles) are the servants of God; the better one among them is the most at enslaving himself to his Master.
The Glorious Quran did not mention any name of any Muslim other than Prophet Mohammed – salam be on him; because this is essential to state who is the prophet and apostle. Only one Muslim: Zaid was mentioned with his name; this is to state some religious statement.
No other Muslim: whether man or woman was mentioned by name: neither Ali, nor Omar nor any of his wives and nor any other Muslim; that is because the purpose was to glorify God, not to glorify the servants.
Many other Muslims were mentioned by pointing out to them only without giving the name; like "his comrade", "one of his wives" …etc.
In addition, many prophets names have been mentioned in the Quran (not all of them of course.)
The Quran stated the name of the prophet like in this aya 48: 29
(But when there came, to them [: the pagan Arabs], the [messenger of the] truth from Us, they said:
"Why is [Mohammed] not given [miracles] like those which were given to Moses before?"
Did they not unbelieve in that which was given to Moses aforetime?
They say: "[The Scripture of Moses and the Quran are] two magics that have prevailed"; and they say: "Surely in both we are unbelievers."
Say [O Mohammed, to them]: "Bring a Book from God that gives better guidance than either [of the Law and the Quran], which then I will certainly follow, if you speak truly.")
SECOND:
The Quran came to glorify God, not to glorify people.
All people (including the prophets and apostles) are the servants of God; the better one among them is the most at enslaving himself to his Master.
The Glorious Quran did not mention any name of any Muslim other than Prophet Mohammed – salam be on him; because this is essential to state who is the prophet and apostle. Only one Muslim: Zaid was mentioned with his name; this is to state some religious statement.
No other Muslim: whether man or woman was mentioned by name: neither Ali, nor Omar nor any of his wives and nor any other Muslim; that is because the purpose was to glorify God, not to glorify the servants.
Many other Muslims were mentioned by pointing out to them only without giving the name; like "his comrade", "one of his wives" …etc.
In addition, many prophets names have been mentioned in the Quran (not all of them of course.)
The Quran stated the name of the prophet like in this aya 48: 29
مُّحَمَّدٌ رَّسُولُ اللَّهِ وَالَّذِينَ مَعَهُ أَشِدَّاء عَلَى الْكُفَّارِ رُحَمَاء بَيْنَهُمْ تَرَاهُمْ رُكَّعًا سُجَّدًا يَبْتَغُونَ فَضْلًا مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَرِضْوَانًا سِيمَاهُمْ فِي وُجُوهِهِم مِّنْ أَثَرِ السُّجُودِ ذَلِكَ مَثَلُهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ ...
The explanation:
(Mohammed, the messenger of God, and those [believers] with him are hard against the unbelievers, and merciful among themselves.
You [man] see them bowing and falling prostrate [in prayer, most of the time],
seeking bounty from God and [His] good-pleasure.
Their [righteous] appearance is on their faces due to the effect of compliance [to God.]
Such is their likeness in the Law [: the Torah.] …)
eanassir
http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com
(Mohammed, the messenger of God, and those [believers] with him are hard against the unbelievers, and merciful among themselves.
You [man] see them bowing and falling prostrate [in prayer, most of the time],
seeking bounty from God and [His] good-pleasure.
Their [righteous] appearance is on their faces due to the effect of compliance [to God.]
Such is their likeness in the Law [: the Torah.] …)
eanassir
http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com
All of which just begs the question. You can't demonstrate something's true just by stating that it's true. We need independent corroboration from outside the religious traditions, not the documents produced by the religious traditions themselves. They are suspect for many reasons, starting with the obvious fact that the people who wrote them were not historians in any sense that we would understand the term, they had didactic and marketing purposes and felt free to exaggerate and fabricate if it would help sell the message.
These heavenly books speak for themselves: their origin from God.
Moreover, there is no other book giving more guidance than their guidance to God.
By the way, what do you mean by the word "historian"? You mean he was not true personality?
- At the start:
>> First of all there came Prophet Abraham: the father of a large number of prophets and apostles, including Moses, Jesus and Mohammed.
>> Then after Abraham and his sons, came Moses to whom the Torah was revealed.
The captivity of Babylon came then, and the original Torah was torn up by Nabuchodonosor. After their return from the captivity the priest Ezra wrote his Torah which included many alterations and distortions.
>> Then came Jesus Christ to whom the Gospel was given as guidance to the Children of Israel and to all humanity.
The monotheistic mission of Jesus was distorted by Saul surnamed Paul and others.
>> Then came Mohammed to whom the Quran was revealed as correction and confirmation of both the Torah and the Gospel.
Mohammed was instructed to return to the origin and follow the creed of Abraham the monotheist who was against the idolatry.
This is in the Quran 2: 135
>> Then after Abraham and his sons, came Moses to whom the Torah was revealed.
The captivity of Babylon came then, and the original Torah was torn up by Nabuchodonosor. After their return from the captivity the priest Ezra wrote his Torah which included many alterations and distortions.
>> Then came Jesus Christ to whom the Gospel was given as guidance to the Children of Israel and to all humanity.
The monotheistic mission of Jesus was distorted by Saul surnamed Paul and others.
>> Then came Mohammed to whom the Quran was revealed as correction and confirmation of both the Torah and the Gospel.
Mohammed was instructed to return to the origin and follow the creed of Abraham the monotheist who was against the idolatry.
This is in the Quran 2: 135
وَقَالُواْ كُونُواْ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَى تَهْتَدُواْ قُلْ بَلْ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ
The explanation:
(They say: 'Be Jews or Christians, and you will be rightly guided.'
Say [to them, O Mohammed]:
"Not so, but [we follow] the religion of Abraham, the Hanief [i.e. the monotheist];
he was not [one] of those who associate [others with God.]")
(They say: 'Be Jews or Christians, and you will be rightly guided.'
Say [to them, O Mohammed]:
"Not so, but [we follow] the religion of Abraham, the Hanief [i.e. the monotheist];
he was not [one] of those who associate [others with God.]")
- The First of all the Commandments:
It is the basis of all the heavenly religions and of every apostlehood of all the apostles.
http://universeandquran.t35.com/index.htm#First_Commandment
eanassir
http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com
http://universeandquran.t35.com/index.htm#First_Commandment
eanassir
http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com
I for one am trying to understand what you are trying to get `across` to the membership but I cannot see it.
The Quran confirms the original Torah and Gospel; the Quran confirms the Ten Commandments.
It does not mean that all the Torah books are distorted, and not all the gospels are added or deleted.
But certainly, there have been many distortions: adding and omitting many things from the original Torah and Gospel.
Some Books, Of The Hebrew Bible, Are Lost
The Lies Of Ezra About The Prophets
The Mistakes In The Torah Of Ezra
While God – be glorified – said in the Quran 4: 26
يُرِيدُ اللّهُ لِيُبَيِّنَ لَكُمْ وَيَهْدِيَكُمْ سُنَنَ الَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِكُمْ وَيَتُوبَ عَلَيْكُمْ وَاللّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ
The explanation:
(God likes to explain to you,
and to acquaint you about the rites of those [Children of Israel who were] before you, and to turn towards you; God is All-Knowing, Most Wise.)
eanassir
http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com
(God likes to explain to you,
and to acquaint you about the rites of those [Children of Israel who were] before you, and to turn towards you; God is All-Knowing, Most Wise.)
eanassir
http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com
Well he must be on hiatus considering what is happening in and to the world these days.
Can the purpose of this existence be seen in hope of a better life?
If this life is all there is, why do any good at all?
Why not be mean, mad murderous, selfish individuals with hope that this is all there is?
look3467, there is a very simple answer to that. We do good because we want to do good, because it feels good to do good.
Contrary to what you may think, most human beings are not mad murderers. We are all selfish to some extent, sure. But which of us wouldn’t try to help a drowning man, or a drowning child? Which of us wouldn’t give a piece of bread to a starving man?
And why do we do this? Because it feels good, not because some vengeful, wrath filled God is looking down on us and makes us. And why does it feel good? Why, because of the instinct of preservation of species, of course, which is hard wired into all the species.
We do selfish acts out of the instinct of self preservation. We do charitable acts out of the instinct of preservation of species. Both the instincts are hard wired into all the species. It is not more complicated than that.
If this life is all there is, why do any good at all?
Why not be mean, mad murderous, selfish individuals with hope that this is all there is?
look3467, there is a very simple answer to that. We do good because we want to do good, because it feels good to do good.
Contrary to what you may think, most human beings are not mad murderers. We are all selfish to some extent, sure. But which of us wouldn’t try to help a drowning man, or a drowning child? Which of us wouldn’t give a piece of bread to a starving man?
And why do we do this? Because it feels good, not because some vengeful, wrath filled God is looking down on us and makes us. And why does it feel good? Why, because of the instinct of preservation of species, of course, which is hard wired into all the species.
We do selfish acts out of the instinct of self preservation. We do charitable acts out of the instinct of preservation of species. Both the instincts are hard wired into all the species. It is not more complicated than that.
The Children of Israel faced the past experience of bearing the Commandments of God and to serve Him alone, against the idolatry and injustice.
It was God Himself Who instructed the past nation of the Children of Israel to be upright and hold fast with such monotheism.
Therefore, God - be glorified - told people in the Quran to take the lesson of the nation of the Children of Israel who were His chosen people in the past; in order to have the benefit of this example.
This is like that He told us the stories of the past prophets and their nations, to have the advatage of their experience.
God – be exalted – said in the Quran 24: 34
وَلَقَدْ أَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكُمْ آيَاتٍ مُّبَيِّنَاتٍ وَمَثَلًا مِّنَ الَّذِينَ خَلَوْا مِن قَبْلِكُمْ وَمَوْعِظَةً لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ
The explanation:
(And We have sent down for you revelations: detailing [statements],
and the example of those who passed away before you
and an admonition to those who ward off [abominations.] )
(And We have sent down for you revelations: detailing [statements],
and the example of those who passed away before you
and an admonition to those who ward off [abominations.] )
A trade that will not lose
This call is to all our friends and others in the Canadian Content forums.
- To be with God alone ––– and they will gain and will never lose.
- To believe in all the apostles of God including Moses, Jesus and Mohammed ––– and they will prosper in the next life and will never lose.
- To believe in all the heavenly books including the Glorious Quran ––– and they will be successful in the afterlife.
I say to all our brothers and friends: do not hinder people from the way of God alone without associate; like what Jesus Christ – salam be to him – said to his opponents:
"You have hindered people from the way of God; so that neither you entered nor let others enter into the kingdom of heaven [: Paradise.]"