Where will Canadian doctors go?

[Walter]

If the US goes to government funded healthcare where will Canadian-trained doctors go to work? Many Candian doctors go to the US to get away from the socialist medicine here in the Great White North. In the US they are able to make more money and aren't controlled by Big Brother.

 

[sirlorenzo]

I'm sure they would just continue to work in Canada. A doctor in Canada still easily pulls in 6 figures. Plus, how exactly are they controlled by big brother? They do their job just the same as in the US except in Canada a patient can not be turned away if that other big brother, the insurance companies, decides they don't feel it should be covered. It's essentially the same thing, especially as far as a front line employee is concerned.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Well....there's always South Africa I guess. I hear they have a
shortage 'cuz many of their Doctors are over working in Canada.

South Africa suffering as Saskatchewan takes its doctors: Top envoy

 

[SirJosephPorter]

If the US goes to government funded healthcare where will Canadian-trained doctors go to work? Many Candian doctors go to the US to get away from the socialist medicine here in the Great White North. In the US they are able to make more money and aren't controlled by Big Brother.

That is the propaganda put out by the far right here in Canada, because far right wants American style health care here in Canada. The motto of the far right is, American good, Canadian bad.

No doubt a few doctors go over to USA. But similar number come back from USA, there is very little net flow of doctors from Canada to USA.

My wife is a doctor, she tells me that most doctors are quite happy here. Indeed, she gets letters from USA from time to time, inviting her to look over their medical facilities (all expense paid), in the hope that they can persuade her to go over to USA to work. Currently there is a desperate shortage of Family Physicians in USA.

Once she got a letter from Florida in winter and I suggested that she take up the offer (of visiting Florida in winter), we could get an expense paid trip to the sunshine state. But she wasn’t’ interested.

 

[EagleSmack]

That is the propaganda put out by the far right here in Canada, because far right wants American style health care here in Canada. The motto of the far right is, American good, Canadian bad.

.

LOL

Too funny.

A big azz fire behind you and you say...

"Nothing to see here"

 

[SirJosephPorter]

That is how far right operates in Canada, EagelSmack. Far right here is fiercely patriotic, but towards USA, not towards Canada.

Thus they love everything American. They want American health care, they want equal Senate, they want American style referendums here, they want to recall the MPs (like you can recall governors etc.), they don’t want government to pay for abortions (same as USA).

In USA far right loves everything American. The same in Canada, far right loves every American.

 

[Cannuck]

My wife is a doctor, she tells me that most doctors are quite happy here.

Wow...she knows most doctors?

 

[Walter]

No doubt a few doctors go over to USA.

The Canadian contribution to the US physician workforce

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]Robert L. Phillips, Jr, Stephen Petterson, George E. Fryer, Jr and Walter Rosser [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]From The Robert Graham Center: Policy Studies in Family Medicine and Primary Care (Phillips, Petterson), Washington, DC; the Department of Pediatrics (Fryer), New York University, New York City, NY; and the Department of Family Medicine (Rosser), Queen's University, Kingston, Ont. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Correspondence to: Dr. Robert L. Phillips Jr, The Robert Graham Center: Policy Studies in Family Medicine and Primary Care, Suite 201, 1350 Connecticut Ave. NW, Washington DC 20036; fax 202 986-7034; bphillips@aafp.org [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][SIZE=+2] Abstract [/SIZE][/FONT]Background: A physician shortage has been declared in both Canada and the United States. We sought to examine the migration pattern of Canadian-trained physicians to the United States, the contribution of this migration to the Canadian physician shortage and policy options in light of competing shortages in both countries.
Methods: We performed a cross-sectional analysis of the 2004 and 2006 American Medical Association Physician Masterfiles, the 2002 Area Resource File and data from the Canadian Institute for Health Information, the Canadian Medical Association and the Association of Faculties of Medicine of Canada. We describe the migration pattern of Canadian medical school graduates to the United States, the number of Canadian-trained physicians in the United States in 2006, the proportion who were in active practice, the proportion who were practising in rural or underserved areas and the annual contribution of Canadian-trained physicians to the US physician workforce.
Results: Two-thirds of the 12 040 Canadian-educated physicians living in the United States in 2006 were practising in direct patient care, 1023 in rural areas. About 186, or 1 in 9, Canadian-educated physicians from each graduating class joined the US physician workforce providing direct patient care. Canadian-educated physicians are more likely than US-educated physicians to practise in rural areas. Interpretation: Minimizing emigration, and perhaps recruiting physicians to return to Canada, could reduce physician shortages, particularly in subspecialties and rural areas. In light of competing physician shortages, it will be important to consider policy options that reduce emigration, improve access to care and reduce reliance on physicians from developing countries.



1 in 9 or 11.1% is hardly a few. Please check your facts before you post.

 

[Walter]

how exactly are they controlled by big brother? They do their job just the same as in the US except in Canada a patient can not be turned away if that other big brother, the insurance companies, decides they don't feel it should be covered.

The provincial govmnt(big brother) tells them what they get paid per procedure, which procedures they can charge for and that they can't charge for extra services. My brother, a GP in Texas, cannot legally turn away a patient; he must treat all patients who ask him for help and then he gets reimbursed by the patient, the ins company, the HMO, or the govmnt(medicare/medicaid).

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Walter, the article is OK as far as it goes, but it is totally misleading, it leaves out several factors.

How long do the Canadian doctors stay in USA? I remember seeing in Medical Post (a CMA publication) that many of them return to Canada after a few years, and for the past several years, number of doctors leaving Ontario (for USA) and entering Ontario (from USA) has been about equal, perhaps a net migration of about a 100 or so to USA. I will see if I can find anything on the net.

The other factor is that we get plenty of doctors from other countries, Canada is a net importer of the doctors, same as USA. We get all the doctors we want from other counties, so the small (net) number who leave for USA is a non factor.

It is the right wing who uses these numbers, in USA to claim that Canadian system is the pits, and in Canada to claim that Canadian system is the pits, that we should switch over to American system.

 

[AnnaG]

If the US goes to government funded healthcare where will Canadian-trained doctors go to work? Many Candian doctors go to the US to get away from the socialist medicine here in the Great White North. In the US they are able to make more money and aren't controlled by Big Brother.

MDs are heading south anyway. My own md went into a clinic with a dozen or so other docs to cut down operating costs because she was netting about $3.15 per hour. (The converted house she was using is still empty). I bet she isn't alone. The money for MDs is in specialties. If you're a plain old family doc, you're not doing as well as you thought you would be. So what happens is that you think you have something wrong, you go see your doc and she spends the minimum required time with you and either gives you a pill or else shuffles you along to a specialist. That's the assembly line medicine we have in BC. Not sure about the rest of the country.

 

[AnnaG]

And on top of that, doctors qualified in their own countries can't practise here because they need to requalify here but there is so much bureaucracy, the gov't trips over itself constantly, hasn't got a clue what's its doing, and perfectly good immigrant docs end up cooking pizzas and driving taxis.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

The provincial govmnt(big brother) tells them what they get paid per procedure, which procedures they can charge for and that they can't charge for extra services. My brother, a GP in Texas, cannot legally turn away a patient; he must treat all patients who ask him for help and then he gets reimbursed by the patient, the ins company, the HMO, or the govmnt(medicare/medicaid).

Canadian system is much better than that. In Canada, a doctor has the right to turn away a patient he/she does not want, except for emergency treatment (a doctor cannot refuse emergency treatment).

Doctor gets paid per procedure, which he charges to the government. Not the patient, not private companies, but to the single payer, government. There is very little red tape, very little administration.

In USA there are over 1500 insurance companies, each has its own separate form, separate fee schedule, separate procedure for claim the fee etc. The administration is a nightmare. In Canada one secretary can handle the billing for 3 or 4 doctors, in USA a doctor needs one or two persons just to handle the accounts receivable.

USA spends an inordinate amount on administration, on red tape. Administration is a large part of medical spending over there, here it is a small part.

 

[Tonington]

If the US goes to government funded healthcare where will Canadian-trained doctors go to work? Many Candian doctors go to the US to get away from the socialist medicine here in the Great White North. In the US they are able to make more money and aren't controlled by Big Brother.

Many more Canadian doctors move from rural to urban areas, and from less prosperous provinces to more prosperous ones. I suspect those that go to the USoA will be just fine working in the private clinics that they have, and will continue to have. Practicing will be just as lucrative, I'm sure.

 

[AnnaG]

Many more Canadian doctors move from rural to urban areas, and from less prosperous provinces to more prosperous ones. I suspect those that go to the USoA will be just fine working in the private clinics that they have, and will continue to have. Practicing will be just as lucrative, I'm sure.

I think so, too.
MDs are just like other people, they go where they feel they can be compensated the best for what they do.
As a result, a lot of people around here don't have a regular family physician. So they go to walkin clinics and end up seeing a different doc every time. Not good.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

My own md went into a clinic with a dozen or so other docs to cut down operating costs because she was netting about $3.15 per hour.

Anna, that sounds like a very strange sort of clinic, even with 12 doctors to share the expenses she netted 3.15 an hour. Either she was a poor entrepreneur, or somebody was cheating her o a massive scale.

My wife is a Family Physician and she has a solo practice (I am her business manager, one of the many things that I am involved in). She does very well indeed, after paying for the expenses (staff salary, rent, professional dues etc.) she nets well into six figures. And I think she is typical of Family Physicians, not your 3.15 $ per hour doctor.

We know many Family Physicians in the area, many of them have solo practices and they are all doing very well. Average income of Family Physicians in Ontario is into six figures.

So I find it very difficult to understand about that clinic of yours. Money is disappearing somewhere on a massive scale.

 

[AnnaG]

My own md went into a clinic with a dozen or so other docs to cut down operating costs because she was netting about $3.15 per hour.

Anna, that sounds like a very strange sort of clinic, even with 12 doctors to share the expenses she netted 3.15 an hour. Either she was a poor entrepreneur, or somebody was cheating her o a massive scale.

That's not what I said and you even highlighted what I actually did say.
As my husband puts it; "you may think you understand what you think you heard, but I am not sure that you realize that what you think you heard is not what I meant and may not even be what I actually said".

 

[Tonington]

Whomever it was that first said that ignorance is bliss, must not have had the occasion of explaining them self to an ignoramus.

 

[ironsides]

That is how far right operates in Canada, EagelSmack. Far right here is fiercely patriotic, but towards USA, not towards Canada.

Thus they love everything American. They want American health care, they want equal Senate, they want American style referendums here, they want to recall the MPs (like you can recall governors etc.), they don’t want government to pay for abortions (same as USA).

In USA far right loves everything American. The same in Canada, far right loves every American.

As it should be, what does the Left have to offer except that you are incapable of taking care of yourself, let us do it for you. We know more about everything than you. (This is not a personal attack, but an attack against Leftist thinking in general) It was the Right who made our countries what they were. Now look what were doing to ourselves. How many are really happy with our governments?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I don’t think you understand my point, ironsides. In almost every country, far right is fiercely patriotic, everything in their country, every idea in their country is good, anything foreign is bad. Thus in Britain, the extreme right wing party, National Front, considers everything British good, everything foreign (including everything American) bad.

Or look at India. RSS, the Hindu Fundamentalist group, admires everything Indian, everything Hindu, despises anything Muslim or Christian. Same with Osama Ben Laden.

The exception is Canada. In Canada, the far right is slavishly devoted to United States. They hate everything Canadian, love everything American.

That was the point I was trying to make, I don’t know the reason why that is so.