Council Member
Posts: 2,287 
March 11th, 2008, 09:03 PM
The top U.S. military commander for the Middle East resigned Tuesday amid speculation about a rift over U.S. policy in Iran.
Fallon was the subject of an article published last week in Esquire magazine that portrayed him as opposed to President Bush's Iran policy. It described Fallon as a lone voice against taking military action to stop the Iranian nuclear program.
The newspaper said senior officials in the Bush administration were unhappy with remarks Fallon has made about Iran and the pace of U.S. troop withdrawals from Iraq.
On his first trip to Iraq, he allowed a reporter for the New York Times to accompany him to a meeting at which he lectured Prime Minister Maliki on the need for political reform. A source close to Fallon says that earned him phone calls from Vice President Cheney, Secretary of State Rice and National Security Adviser Hadley. Afterwards, Fallon said he had "two strikes against me" and lamented ever taking the job.
Martin reports there will be a lot of speculation that Fallon's departure clears the decks for war with Iran before Bush leaves office, despite the fact that Secretary Gates twice called the notion "ridiculous."
Complete article here:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n3926955.shtml
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Hmm... that doesn't bode well! I have expected something will happen down there before Bush will leave office. Could this be the reason why they push NATO so hard to take over more in Afghanistan, so they will have all they need for an attack on Iran?
I'm just musing! But what do you think...?
The top U.S. military commander for the Middle East resigned Tuesday amid speculation about a rift over U.S. policy in Iran.
Fallon was the subject of an article published last week in Esquire magazine that portrayed him as opposed to President Bush's Iran policy. It described Fallon as a lone voice against taking military action to stop the Iranian nuclear program.
The newspaper said senior officials in the Bush administration were unhappy with remarks Fallon has made about Iran and the pace of U.S. troop withdrawals from Iraq.
On his first trip to Iraq, he allowed a reporter for the New York Times to accompany him to a meeting at which he lectured Prime Minister Maliki on the need for political reform. A source close to Fallon says that earned him phone calls from Vice President Cheney, Secretary of State Rice and National Security Adviser Hadley. Afterwards, Fallon said he had "two strikes against me" and lamented ever taking the job.
Martin reports there will be a lot of speculation that Fallon's departure clears the decks for war with Iran before Bush leaves office, despite the fact that Secretary Gates twice called the notion "ridiculous."
Complete article here:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n3926955.shtml
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmm... that doesn't bode well! I have expected something will happen down there before Bush will leave office. Could this be the reason why they push NATO so hard to take over more in Afghanistan, so they will have all they need for an attack on Iran?
I'm just musing! But what do you think...?
Council Member
Posts: 2,287
March 11th, 2008, 09:27 PM
A little history
Aug. 19, 1953
Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq, a nationalist who wanted Iran to profit more from its oil reserves, is deposed in a CIA orchestrated coup, supported and funded by the British and the U.S. governments in order to preserve Western control of Iran's oil infrastructure.
May 1975
Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlevi visits the United States and meets with President Gerald R.
Ford.
December 1977
President Jimmy Carter visits Iran and in a New Year's Eve toast says, "Iran, under the great leadership of the shah, is an island of stability" in the Middle East. The State Department says this was the last "substantive" high-level meeting between the two nations.
A little history
Aug. 19, 1953
Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq, a nationalist who wanted Iran to profit more from its oil reserves, is deposed in a CIA orchestrated coup, supported and funded by the British and the U.S. governments in order to preserve Western control of Iran's oil infrastructure.
May 1975
Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlevi visits the United States and meets with President Gerald R.
Ford.
December 1977
President Jimmy Carter visits Iran and in a New Year's Eve toast says, "Iran, under the great leadership of the shah, is an island of stability" in the Middle East. The State Department says this was the last "substantive" high-level meeting between the two nations.
Electoral Member
Posts: 901
Location: Red Deer AB
Location: Red Deer AB
March 11th, 2008, 10:16 PM
The higher ups in America won't do anything under threat of losing their jobs. The ones not in that group will keep quiet because of promises of keeping gas cheap (not that it will work out that way but then it's too late anyway). If the international community were going to do anything they would have over the two illegal invasions already going on in that area of the world.
If the US thinks they are seeing resistance in those two places once they try to put boots on that ground, well, better stock up on those black bags.
The higher ups in America won't do anything under threat of losing their jobs. The ones not in that group will keep quiet because of promises of keeping gas cheap (not that it will work out that way but then it's too late anyway). If the international community were going to do anything they would have over the two illegal invasions already going on in that area of the world.
If the US thinks they are seeing resistance in those two places once they try to put boots on that ground, well, better stock up on those black bags.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
March 11th, 2008, 10:58 PM
The caliber of American “Democracy”….
I realize that perhaps most Americans regard the United States of America as a Republic first and a “democracy” second. This acquiescence/acknowledgement that America is when all is said and done simply the post-modern “make-over” of British, Spanish, French and other imperial empires, undermines the notion of exporting “democracy” and “freedom” to the world through militarism and fiscal coercion. To wit, there is nothing essentially different in the behavior and actions of the United States of America than the dynamics in play at the time that fortune-seeking entirely self-consumed cowboys orchestrated the “war of independence” from Britain.
This could be debated of course but the parameters of American “republicanism” and American style “democracy” should be able to stand the test of focused examination.
Questions demand asking.
As Americans witness the caliber of governors congressmen and senators identified as grasping self-interested petty nabobs prepared to eschew not only the laws and values espoused as existing at the foundation, the very “heart” of what it is to be “American”, but laws of torture as instrument or mechanism of “war” how long will it take for Americans to get a grasp on the reality that is America?
Initiating a war on the basis of highly dubious “intelligence” that has spawned a culture of terrorism is but the tip of the iceberg seen rising on the horizon of the American political and social landscape.
Rhetoric dismissing behavior and misbehavior exposed at the highest levels of “government” called into defense at the corruption and failed moral integrity of American style “government” isn’t about to disappear any time soon. Defensive finger-pointing and baseless comparisons will abound, not because this is “justification” for a failed state self-identity and not even because the tenor of comparative corruption across the global landscape is capable of equivocating the lawlessness and absence of moral integrity at the heart of America, but because there is no other defence available.
Even if we could somehow excuse the on-going litany of corruption in the lofty spires of American commerce, a willingness to manipulate trillions of dollars to the end of securing personal financial wealth and power through any means available, to the expanding mountain of evidence indicating that governors, congressmen, presidents and the many and various pillars of American social self-identification are without shame, without integrity and without conscience, one fact remains as apparent as the elephant in the drawingroom.
Americans accept this situation as normal and rally under their various credos of partisanship and self-interest while the promise of America, the “American Dream” is revealed for exactly what it is….
A lie.
America can’t be trusted and while Mr. and Mrs. Average America send their children off to die in yet another senseless war perpetrated on the basis of greed and self-interest, the world that stands against the infamy that is America does not require terrorism or any external mechanism to stimulate the collapse of the last great empire of greed. The collapse will come about just as the collapse of every other empire has, from within.
The caliber of American “Democracy”….
I realize that perhaps most Americans regard the United States of America as a Republic first and a “democracy” second. This acquiescence/acknowledgement that America is when all is said and done simply the post-modern “make-over” of British, Spanish, French and other imperial empires, undermines the notion of exporting “democracy” and “freedom” to the world through militarism and fiscal coercion. To wit, there is nothing essentially different in the behavior and actions of the United States of America than the dynamics in play at the time that fortune-seeking entirely self-consumed cowboys orchestrated the “war of independence” from Britain.
This could be debated of course but the parameters of American “republicanism” and American style “democracy” should be able to stand the test of focused examination.
Questions demand asking.
As Americans witness the caliber of governors congressmen and senators identified as grasping self-interested petty nabobs prepared to eschew not only the laws and values espoused as existing at the foundation, the very “heart” of what it is to be “American”, but laws of torture as instrument or mechanism of “war” how long will it take for Americans to get a grasp on the reality that is America?
Initiating a war on the basis of highly dubious “intelligence” that has spawned a culture of terrorism is but the tip of the iceberg seen rising on the horizon of the American political and social landscape.
Rhetoric dismissing behavior and misbehavior exposed at the highest levels of “government” called into defense at the corruption and failed moral integrity of American style “government” isn’t about to disappear any time soon. Defensive finger-pointing and baseless comparisons will abound, not because this is “justification” for a failed state self-identity and not even because the tenor of comparative corruption across the global landscape is capable of equivocating the lawlessness and absence of moral integrity at the heart of America, but because there is no other defence available.
Even if we could somehow excuse the on-going litany of corruption in the lofty spires of American commerce, a willingness to manipulate trillions of dollars to the end of securing personal financial wealth and power through any means available, to the expanding mountain of evidence indicating that governors, congressmen, presidents and the many and various pillars of American social self-identification are without shame, without integrity and without conscience, one fact remains as apparent as the elephant in the drawingroom.
Americans accept this situation as normal and rally under their various credos of partisanship and self-interest while the promise of America, the “American Dream” is revealed for exactly what it is….
A lie.
America can’t be trusted and while Mr. and Mrs. Average America send their children off to die in yet another senseless war perpetrated on the basis of greed and self-interest, the world that stands against the infamy that is America does not require terrorism or any external mechanism to stimulate the collapse of the last great empire of greed. The collapse will come about just as the collapse of every other empire has, from within.
Electoral Member
Posts: 355
Location: California
Location: California
March 11th, 2008, 11:15 PM
Fallon like Peter Pace is considered to be an "Outsider" by the deeply entrenched military leadership and only came to the job because of some other accomodations forced on that group by Bush I. While he is entited to his convictions personally he is supposed to only mouth the party line he is given. If you step out of line something is going to happen. I think he got out just before the hammer fell. Too bad. He is reasonable, open, honest and above all a gentleman. With the exception of the last of those attributes the others others never show those qualities to us. He (in their opinion) just didn't fit. It is another example of how politics does play a huge part in our military establishment. He is well educated, well spoken and well thought of by those in his command. He will do well in retirement too. Like Pace, Sanchez, Zinni and others he is another victim of the clique.
Fallon like Peter Pace is considered to be an "Outsider" by the deeply entrenched military leadership and only came to the job because of some other accomodations forced on that group by Bush I. While he is entited to his convictions personally he is supposed to only mouth the party line he is given. If you step out of line something is going to happen. I think he got out just before the hammer fell. Too bad. He is reasonable, open, honest and above all a gentleman. With the exception of the last of those attributes the others others never show those qualities to us. He (in their opinion) just didn't fit. It is another example of how politics does play a huge part in our military establishment. He is well educated, well spoken and well thought of by those in his command. He will do well in retirement too. Like Pace, Sanchez, Zinni and others he is another victim of the clique.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
March 11th, 2008, 11:22 PM
Absolutely correct normbc!
As long as there's no messy stuff like screwing around with his pension and he can maintain the "image" of someone with the "ear" of the Joint Chiefs....everything's just swell.
Americans will sell anything and everything.....
Absolutely correct normbc!
As long as there's no messy stuff like screwing around with his pension and he can maintain the "image" of someone with the "ear" of the Joint Chiefs....everything's just swell.
Americans will sell anything and everything.....
Electoral Member
Posts: 901
Location: Red Deer AB
Location: Red Deer AB
March 11th, 2008, 11:35 PM
Wasn't Fallon's appointment a bit of a surprise to most people. He is navy after all and was put in charge of a land war (not counting the proposed Iranian conflict). That raised the speculation that Iran would involve the navy to a great degree. Would the same hold true for what branch his replacement comes from?
Fallon could have, and probably did, come to the conclusion Iran could not be defeated without a lot of close-up contact.
Wasn't Fallon's appointment a bit of a surprise to most people. He is navy after all and was put in charge of a land war (not counting the proposed Iranian conflict). That raised the speculation that Iran would involve the navy to a great degree. Would the same hold true for what branch his replacement comes from?
Fallon could have, and probably did, come to the conclusion Iran could not be defeated without a lot of close-up contact.
Mass'Debator
Posts: 4,194
Location: Atlantic Canada
Location: Atlantic Canada
March 12th, 2008, 08:08 AM
Well my supervisor and myself whom both follow this stuff have summed it all up to this:
World War III. If the US/Bush is so fokking stupid as to start a war with Iran, Russia and China will back Iran and along with plenty of other middle eastern countries as well. The US military is crap, they can't even recruit enough people, pay enough people, cover their own medical costs from battles, can't even muster up enough soldiers to cover Afghanistan, let alone Iraq..... and here we go.... with Iran.
And don't forget people.... there is still no God Damn proof of Iran's work on Nuclear weapons, and certainly not enough to goto war about.
Someone put a *teddy bear* in his head now and get it over with before he kills the great majority of the planet's population with his desire for a Nuclear Holocaust, because I Shat you not, this is exactly where we are heading, and unless the US population uses their God Given right of Revolution against their government, then someone else is going to have to do something about it..... or we will all be surely dead.
This isn't some frigging fear mongering, what's fear mongering is what that freak job Bush and his hinchmen are doing. He needs to be stopped, and if he is not stopped, then the entire country of the United States Must be stopped at all costs or they will be our distruction.
I swear to whatever God exists out there, that if Canada for some freak reason joins sides with the US on this, I will do everything in my own power to form whatever force is nessicary to take this government out of power.
I will not have some moron assed government send myself, my family, my friends, and you all to our deaths over stupid, petty and selfish goals that suit only their own upper class BS ways! We will all die, while they relax in their plush bunkers as the entire world radiates in a green glow.
I will rather die fighting my own government and the US then to go and fight some pointless war with a country across the globe which has not shown any level of practical agression worth a war.
The only reason why I am so PO'd about this is because ever since 2000, I have seen this all unfold like a predictable fairy tale story book, and only Bush has been stupid enough to make it as blaitent as he has, but see.... by the time people finally get off their asses down in the US to do anything about this twit bag, it will be far too late and all the impeachments, UN war crimes trials and anything else you can image won't make a lick of difference.
He is seeking instability of the entire globe and wanting to play a gamble with power, poking around like the G'damn World police they think they are, all the time citing national security. Well if Bush and his Hitler Youth party want national security for the US, then they shouldn't be going around starting these stupid damn wars.
Fallon's "Retirement" or what I would call as a PR Quitting Ploy which they directly point to as due to differences over Iran is clearly pointing towards the entire US Military structure is poised to start a war with Iran...... and this very same thing occured before the invasion of Iraq.
http://www.israpundit.com/2006/?p=2215
Bush will most likely send in air strikes on key compounds within the Iran border and we will not know about it until he announces on international television that this has occured, and then he will use these attacks as a key signal that the US has declared war on Iran. Once the US attacks, there is no turning back and we're all screwed, as Russia and China at the very least will form up their militaries, pull out from the UN due to having no control over the US, and the entire UN will crumble, leaving no rule of law for any of the former members.
All hell will break loose, and I bet dollars to biscuits that this will happen shortly before the presidential elections are completed. He will then envoke the bill in which he signed that will give him dictatorship over all aspects of the government due to dire national security in which he himself created and then all elections will be called off and Martial Law will be put into place across the nation.
Choose your sides.... either way, it's not going to matter much, but when I die, I sure as hell don't want to be remembered by the cockroaches as someone who supported Bush or the US in this matter. If they want to go down this route, they can rot in hell by themselves.
*shrugs*
Oh... of course this is all just my opinion, what do I know anyways? Never mind, continue sipping your tea or coffee and go back to your everyday lives and forget everything I said. It's not true.... I'm just being silly.
..................
Well my supervisor and myself whom both follow this stuff have summed it all up to this:
World War III. If the US/Bush is so fokking stupid as to start a war with Iran, Russia and China will back Iran and along with plenty of other middle eastern countries as well. The US military is crap, they can't even recruit enough people, pay enough people, cover their own medical costs from battles, can't even muster up enough soldiers to cover Afghanistan, let alone Iraq..... and here we go.... with Iran.
And don't forget people.... there is still no God Damn proof of Iran's work on Nuclear weapons, and certainly not enough to goto war about.
Someone put a *teddy bear* in his head now and get it over with before he kills the great majority of the planet's population with his desire for a Nuclear Holocaust, because I Shat you not, this is exactly where we are heading, and unless the US population uses their God Given right of Revolution against their government, then someone else is going to have to do something about it..... or we will all be surely dead.
This isn't some frigging fear mongering, what's fear mongering is what that freak job Bush and his hinchmen are doing. He needs to be stopped, and if he is not stopped, then the entire country of the United States Must be stopped at all costs or they will be our distruction.
I swear to whatever God exists out there, that if Canada for some freak reason joins sides with the US on this, I will do everything in my own power to form whatever force is nessicary to take this government out of power.
I will not have some moron assed government send myself, my family, my friends, and you all to our deaths over stupid, petty and selfish goals that suit only their own upper class BS ways! We will all die, while they relax in their plush bunkers as the entire world radiates in a green glow.
I will rather die fighting my own government and the US then to go and fight some pointless war with a country across the globe which has not shown any level of practical agression worth a war.
The only reason why I am so PO'd about this is because ever since 2000, I have seen this all unfold like a predictable fairy tale story book, and only Bush has been stupid enough to make it as blaitent as he has, but see.... by the time people finally get off their asses down in the US to do anything about this twit bag, it will be far too late and all the impeachments, UN war crimes trials and anything else you can image won't make a lick of difference.
He is seeking instability of the entire globe and wanting to play a gamble with power, poking around like the G'damn World police they think they are, all the time citing national security. Well if Bush and his Hitler Youth party want national security for the US, then they shouldn't be going around starting these stupid damn wars.
Fallon's "Retirement" or what I would call as a PR Quitting Ploy which they directly point to as due to differences over Iran is clearly pointing towards the entire US Military structure is poised to start a war with Iran...... and this very same thing occured before the invasion of Iraq.
http://www.israpundit.com/2006/?p=2215
Quote:
And do you want to know exactly how this will happen? I haven't been wrong yet on his predictable plans:
.....You do realize that 8 of his top generals quit over Iraq? That’s an American First.
Bush will most likely send in air strikes on key compounds within the Iran border and we will not know about it until he announces on international television that this has occured, and then he will use these attacks as a key signal that the US has declared war on Iran. Once the US attacks, there is no turning back and we're all screwed, as Russia and China at the very least will form up their militaries, pull out from the UN due to having no control over the US, and the entire UN will crumble, leaving no rule of law for any of the former members.
All hell will break loose, and I bet dollars to biscuits that this will happen shortly before the presidential elections are completed. He will then envoke the bill in which he signed that will give him dictatorship over all aspects of the government due to dire national security in which he himself created and then all elections will be called off and Martial Law will be put into place across the nation.
Choose your sides.... either way, it's not going to matter much, but when I die, I sure as hell don't want to be remembered by the cockroaches as someone who supported Bush or the US in this matter. If they want to go down this route, they can rot in hell by themselves.
*shrugs*
Oh... of course this is all just my opinion, what do I know anyways? Never mind, continue sipping your tea or coffee and go back to your everyday lives and forget everything I said. It's not true.... I'm just being silly.
..................
Hall of Fame Member
Posts: 10,505
Location: The Evil Empire
Location: The Evil Empire
March 12th, 2008, 08:37 AM
Quoting Praxius
In one thousand posts that's the smartest one you have ever made.
Oh... of course this is all just my opinion, what do I know anyways? Never mind, continue sipping your tea or coffee and go back to your everyday lives and forget everything I said. It's not true.... I'm just being silly.
..................
..................
Mass'Debator
Posts: 4,194
Location: Atlantic Canada
Location: Atlantic Canada
March 12th, 2008, 09:37 AM
Added:
And besides, I hope all of the above does turns out wrong and never occurs. but so far that mentality hasn't worked.
Quoting I think not
The entire post or just what you quoted? Either way doesn't matter as I have yet to reach 1000 posts anyways. Learn to count. I still have a few more posts before I reach 1000, I may still suprise you
In one thousand posts that's the smartest one you have ever made.
Added:
And besides, I hope all of the above does turns out wrong and never occurs. but so far that mentality hasn't worked.
Electoral Member
Posts: 901
Location: Red Deer AB
Location: Red Deer AB
March 12th, 2008, 10:17 AM
The UN has always been hamstrung just by the fact that they have 5 members who have more authority than the rest combined. It's like a family with 10 members, each having the belief that their opinion actually counts when even if the 8 children all agree on one thing either parent can just say "No." and that is what the decision will be. If it was to be effective it should be the 8 that have binding opinions and the 2 parents are only there to make those decisions become reality.
If the US declared military law Canada would be expected to follow suit, due to recently signed co-operational security agreements.
Please provide a response and we'll see if everybody can get you to that 1000 mark today.
The UN has always been hamstrung just by the fact that they have 5 members who have more authority than the rest combined. It's like a family with 10 members, each having the belief that their opinion actually counts when even if the 8 children all agree on one thing either parent can just say "No." and that is what the decision will be. If it was to be effective it should be the 8 that have binding opinions and the 2 parents are only there to make those decisions become reality.
If the US declared military law Canada would be expected to follow suit, due to recently signed co-operational security agreements.
Please provide a response and we'll see if everybody can get you to that 1000 mark today.
Mass'Debator
Posts: 4,194
Location: Atlantic Canada
Location: Atlantic Canada
March 12th, 2008, 10:55 AM
Never mind, here is something along those lines: (I would suggest members here from both countries read the following)
http://revolutionradio.org/2008/02/2...lesyou-decide/
However, MHz, you are a bit off on your details if this is what you are referring to, as Canada must approve first that any US troops enter our country, such as the US would have to do the same.
But!
Considdering that if US troops enter Canadian Soil, based on this information, they only answer and take orders from the US and can order our own troops around on our own soil..... isn't this sort of like giving the US One big open door to have a passive invasion if they so wish?
Time to pull Harper out of power..... that's the very last straw for me. And I would also suggest for those in the US that if nothing else made you think you should remove Bush from power, this alone, where they can haul our troops into your country to do their dirty work would be enough.
Revolution time people... grab your guns. If they want a Unified North America, then perhaps the people of both countries should do so and oust our governments before they screw us all..... er.... then of course keep our nations seperate, cuz I don't like your way of life, nor would I imagine you guys would enjoy ours. :P
Quoting MHz
Exactly where did you hear this that we have to suck hole and do whatever the US does in this situation?
The UN has always been hamstrung just by the fact that they have 5 members who have more authority than the rest combined. It's like a family with 10 members, each having the belief that their opinion actually counts when even if the 8 children all agree on one thing either parent can just say "No." and that is what the decision will be. If it was to be effective it should be the 8 that have binding opinions and the 2 parents are only there to make those decisions become reality.
If the US declared military law Canada would be expected to follow suit, due to recently signed co-operational security agreements.
Please provide a response and we'll see if everybody can get you to that 1000 mark today.
If the US declared military law Canada would be expected to follow suit, due to recently signed co-operational security agreements.
Please provide a response and we'll see if everybody can get you to that 1000 mark today.
Never mind, here is something along those lines: (I would suggest members here from both countries read the following)
http://revolutionradio.org/2008/02/2...lesyou-decide/
Quote:
AKA: During a Revolution or to keep control over the population all the while not breaking the laws.... technically. Friday, February 22, 2008
Canada and the U.S. have signed an agreement that paves the way for the militaries from either nation to send troops across each other’s borders during an emergency, but some are questioning why the Harper government has kept silent on the deal.
Neither the Canadian government nor the Canadian Forces announced the new agreement, which was signed Feb. 14 in Texas.
The U.S. military’s Northern Command, however, publicized the agreement with a statement outlining how its top officer, Gen. Gene Renuart, and Canadian Lt.-Gen. Marc Dumais, head of Canada Command, signed the plan, which allows the military from one nation to support the armed forces of the other nation during a civil emergency.
Canada and the U.S. have signed an agreement that paves the way for the militaries from either nation to send troops across each other’s borders during an emergency, but some are questioning why the Harper government has kept silent on the deal.
Neither the Canadian government nor the Canadian Forces announced the new agreement, which was signed Feb. 14 in Texas.
The U.S. military’s Northern Command, however, publicized the agreement with a statement outlining how its top officer, Gen. Gene Renuart, and Canadian Lt.-Gen. Marc Dumais, head of Canada Command, signed the plan, which allows the military from one nation to support the armed forces of the other nation during a civil emergency.
Quote:
Ok, besides the governments doing this crap behind our backs and not even telling us until it's already too late and done, I believe both people in the US and in Canada should be Royally PO'd as this will now allow either country to bring in troops to squash anything they can't normally squash based on their own internal laws which restrict the military. The new agreement has been greeted with suspicion by the left wing in Canada and the right wing in the U.S.
The left-leaning Council of Canadians, which is campaigning against what it calls the increasing integration of the U.S. and Canadian militaries, is raising concerns about the deal.
“It’s kind of a trend when it comes to issues of Canada-U.S. relations and contentious issues like military integration. We see that this government is reluctant to disclose information to Canadians that is readily available on American and Mexican websites,” said Stuart Trew, a researcher with the Council of Canadians.
Trew said there is potential for the agreement to militarize civilian responses to emergency incidents. He noted that work is also underway for the two nations to put in place a joint plan to protect common infrastructure such as roadways and oil pipelines.
“Are we going to see (U.S.) troops on our soil for minor potential threats to a pipeline or a road?” he asked.
Trew also noted the U.S. military does not allow its soldiers to operate under foreign command so there are questions about who controls American forces if they are requested for service in Canada. “We don’t know the answers because the government doesn’t want to even announce the plan,” he said.
But Canada Command spokesman Commander David Scanlon said it will be up to civilian authorities in both countries on whether military assistance is requested or even used.
He said the agreement is “benign” and simply sets the stage for military-to-military co-operation if the governments approve.
“But there’s no agreement to allow troops to come in,” he said. “It facilitates planning and co-ordination between the two militaries. The ‘allow’ piece is entirely up to the two governments.”
If U.S. forces were to come into Canada they would be under tactical control of the Canadian Forces but still under the command of the U.S. military, Scanlon added.
News of the deal, and the allegation it was kept secret in Canada, is already making the rounds on left-wing blogs and Internet sites as an example of the dangers of the growing integration between the two militaries.
On right-wing blogs in the U.S. it is being used as evidence of a plan for a “North American union” where foreign troops, not bound by U.S. laws, could be used by the American federal government to override local authorities.
“Co-operative militaries on Home Soil!” notes one website. “The next time your town has a ‘national emergency,’ don’t be surprised if Canadian soldiers respond. And remember - Canadian military aren’t bound by posse comitatus.”
Posse comitatus is a U.S. law that prohibits the use of federal troops from conducting law enforcement duties on domestic soil unless approved by Congress.
Scanlon said there was no intent to keep the agreement secret on the Canadian side of the border. He noted it will be reported on in the Canadian Forces newspaper next week and that publication will be put on the Internet.
Scanlon said the actual agreement hasn’t been released to the public as that requires approval from both nations. That decision has not yet been taken, he added.
The left-leaning Council of Canadians, which is campaigning against what it calls the increasing integration of the U.S. and Canadian militaries, is raising concerns about the deal.
“It’s kind of a trend when it comes to issues of Canada-U.S. relations and contentious issues like military integration. We see that this government is reluctant to disclose information to Canadians that is readily available on American and Mexican websites,” said Stuart Trew, a researcher with the Council of Canadians.
Trew said there is potential for the agreement to militarize civilian responses to emergency incidents. He noted that work is also underway for the two nations to put in place a joint plan to protect common infrastructure such as roadways and oil pipelines.
“Are we going to see (U.S.) troops on our soil for minor potential threats to a pipeline or a road?” he asked.
Trew also noted the U.S. military does not allow its soldiers to operate under foreign command so there are questions about who controls American forces if they are requested for service in Canada. “We don’t know the answers because the government doesn’t want to even announce the plan,” he said.
But Canada Command spokesman Commander David Scanlon said it will be up to civilian authorities in both countries on whether military assistance is requested or even used.
He said the agreement is “benign” and simply sets the stage for military-to-military co-operation if the governments approve.
“But there’s no agreement to allow troops to come in,” he said. “It facilitates planning and co-ordination between the two militaries. The ‘allow’ piece is entirely up to the two governments.”
If U.S. forces were to come into Canada they would be under tactical control of the Canadian Forces but still under the command of the U.S. military, Scanlon added.
News of the deal, and the allegation it was kept secret in Canada, is already making the rounds on left-wing blogs and Internet sites as an example of the dangers of the growing integration between the two militaries.
On right-wing blogs in the U.S. it is being used as evidence of a plan for a “North American union” where foreign troops, not bound by U.S. laws, could be used by the American federal government to override local authorities.
“Co-operative militaries on Home Soil!” notes one website. “The next time your town has a ‘national emergency,’ don’t be surprised if Canadian soldiers respond. And remember - Canadian military aren’t bound by posse comitatus.”
Posse comitatus is a U.S. law that prohibits the use of federal troops from conducting law enforcement duties on domestic soil unless approved by Congress.
Scanlon said there was no intent to keep the agreement secret on the Canadian side of the border. He noted it will be reported on in the Canadian Forces newspaper next week and that publication will be put on the Internet.
Scanlon said the actual agreement hasn’t been released to the public as that requires approval from both nations. That decision has not yet been taken, he added.
However, MHz, you are a bit off on your details if this is what you are referring to, as Canada must approve first that any US troops enter our country, such as the US would have to do the same.
But!
Considdering that if US troops enter Canadian Soil, based on this information, they only answer and take orders from the US and can order our own troops around on our own soil..... isn't this sort of like giving the US One big open door to have a passive invasion if they so wish?
Time to pull Harper out of power..... that's the very last straw for me. And I would also suggest for those in the US that if nothing else made you think you should remove Bush from power, this alone, where they can haul our troops into your country to do their dirty work would be enough.
Revolution time people... grab your guns. If they want a Unified North America, then perhaps the people of both countries should do so and oust our governments before they screw us all..... er.... then of course keep our nations seperate, cuz I don't like your way of life, nor would I imagine you guys would enjoy ours. :P
Electoral Member
Posts: 901
Location: Red Deer AB
Location: Red Deer AB
March 12th, 2008, 11:20 AM
When you say "Canada must approve" I hope you aren't expecting this to require a vote from the 'common people'.
What good would removing Harper do, this is part of the SPP package, PM Martin was signing things related to this long before Harper held any power.
Along with this, the US already has the rights to Canadian oil if it is required for 'national security' reasons. They wouldn't even have to publically say what the threat was, only that they needed it to 'combat' a threat.
Instead of fighting the military, and in all seriousness I don't see that as having a very good outcome, it would seem to be better to dismantle the top few layers of those who are calling the shots these days. Both countries need the support of the military, right now it supports the very few who have power, they need to change to support the 'many'.
When you say "Canada must approve" I hope you aren't expecting this to require a vote from the 'common people'.
What good would removing Harper do, this is part of the SPP package, PM Martin was signing things related to this long before Harper held any power.
Along with this, the US already has the rights to Canadian oil if it is required for 'national security' reasons. They wouldn't even have to publically say what the threat was, only that they needed it to 'combat' a threat.
Instead of fighting the military, and in all seriousness I don't see that as having a very good outcome, it would seem to be better to dismantle the top few layers of those who are calling the shots these days. Both countries need the support of the military, right now it supports the very few who have power, they need to change to support the 'many'.
Council Member
Posts: 2,287
March 12th, 2008, 01:03 PM
This is the first time I hear about this!! We have been sold out...that's what it amounts to! Now I understand fully WHY we are in Afghanistan, we are already joined by the hip to the US!!!
That this latest agreement was done so quietly and so sneakily shows to me that our government knows exactly they would have great difficulty getting it through publicly.
I feel that this kind of dealing is a violation of every Canadian's right to have a say in this, simply because is is too profoundly impacting our future life and our right to self-determination.
Where can I complain? Is there already a group of citizens opposing this? Do you know, Praxius or MHz?
This is the first time I hear about this!! We have been sold out...that's what it amounts to! Now I understand fully WHY we are in Afghanistan, we are already joined by the hip to the US!!!
That this latest agreement was done so quietly and so sneakily shows to me that our government knows exactly they would have great difficulty getting it through publicly.
I feel that this kind of dealing is a violation of every Canadian's right to have a say in this, simply because is is too profoundly impacting our future life and our right to self-determination.
Where can I complain? Is there already a group of citizens opposing this? Do you know, Praxius or MHz?
Electoral Member
Posts: 901
Location: Red Deer AB
Location: Red Deer AB
March 12th, 2008, 01:34 PM
I'm pretty sure we were sold out long before this little piece was implemented. As to where to go, I'm not sure. I can't get any comments from the local MP's on any NAU closed door meetings (like Banff or Montreal)
There are anti NAU groups (both sides of the border), even some American States are strongly opposed to this.
Since it does affect out constitution that would seem to be the best route to take, at least those things have to be ratified by a common vote by all the people. Not that the Gov has been stellar in following those guidelines in the past, that might be the only leg we have to stand on. They forgot to hold a vote by the common people to even form a country named Canada. Deals between corporations are the way they can side-step some issues, but military comes exclusively under Govt control.
As it is, not enough people care for one reason or another. We aren't much different from Americans, as long as the actual fighting is over there our little piece of the pie stays relatively the same.
I'm pretty sure we were sold out long before this little piece was implemented. As to where to go, I'm not sure. I can't get any comments from the local MP's on any NAU closed door meetings (like Banff or Montreal)
There are anti NAU groups (both sides of the border), even some American States are strongly opposed to this.
Since it does affect out constitution that would seem to be the best route to take, at least those things have to be ratified by a common vote by all the people. Not that the Gov has been stellar in following those guidelines in the past, that might be the only leg we have to stand on. They forgot to hold a vote by the common people to even form a country named Canada. Deals between corporations are the way they can side-step some issues, but military comes exclusively under Govt control.
As it is, not enough people care for one reason or another. We aren't much different from Americans, as long as the actual fighting is over there our little piece of the pie stays relatively the same.
Mass'Debator
Posts: 4,194
Location: Atlantic Canada
Location: Atlantic Canada
March 12th, 2008, 01:35 PM
If I ment Common People I would have said Canadian People, not Canada.
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/44/100.html
See, this is why I have always hated our forms of Government, US and Canada alike.... Representational my arse.
I may yet have to make a thread about it alone for others to read here. It is and always will be a work in progress and can only improve with more people looking though it and balancing out the concepts to something that not only will work, that will give power back to the collective of the country, but also gives those in the new government a job, not power. Their job is to do what the people want, not what they think we want. It shows methods of free health care, free education, free housing.... pretty much everything is free, so long as you are contributing to the society in which you live in. Capitalism is one of the biggest cavities as to why things are so screwed up and will continue to be screwed up/getting worse. My method is not anything relating to Communism of course, as even Communism had currency still involved at the governmental level. This method can only become more stronger as more people put more input into it. It is not a one-man concept, nor it is directly original in my own thinking, but a hybred of various forms of government which have been used and have worked centuries ago, and parts have worked for centuries past.... they can work again, esspecially with better technology today, more connection with one another such as this is, and with previous lessons learned.
Although it seems as though that window of chance is now closing day by day with these Unification and Taking it up the arse tactics both our governments are performing. Based on a collective of actions over the years, soon we're either going to be pinned under police states (US and Canada, much more then what we currently are) or we'll be turned into glowing monkies from the up coming war.
Fighting head on with either country's military is of course a tricky process (For both sides) even with a well formed and trained local independant malitia(s). Now with the dumb ass transfer ability of each country being able to send in one another's military to do their dirty work, it certainly doesn't look good.... until instability in communications between governments and their technology are compromised in some way and propaganda methods are interupted. That of course can occur with this lovely new World War on our door steps.... or by us the people, both in the US and Canada standing up and fighting the governments directly.
Don't forget, our militaries are still us, and are still human. We make the armies, they direct them. It is one thing to send our children off to kill people we have no relation or understanding of.... but turning them on our own people, or our own neighbors will very well be the end of the strength of those militaries. And I also don't see them logically doing this when we are fighting additional wars over seas.
Both governments and militaries are stretched thin as it is, and they're running out of cards.... but they still have some bluffs.
Quoting MHz
During a Civil Emergency that most likely wouldn't occure, and obviously it would be up to the political parties within our government to approve this to occur. Perhaps bringing it to a Non-Confidence situation I would certainly hope. But there is always the good old fashion Referendum... but that would be grasping, once again, considdering it relates to internal civil emergencies, I doubt we'd have any say in what occurs.
When you say "Canada must approve" I hope you aren't expecting this to require a vote from the 'common people'.
If I ment Common People I would have said Canadian People, not Canada.
Quote:
And exactly what would be the benifits to our country for this sort of crap that our gracious moronic leaders would tell us justifies such things? (Seriously)
What good would removing Harper do, this is part of the SPP package, PM Martin was signing things related to this long before Harper held any power.
Quote:
From an article I just snipped:
Along with this, the US already has the rights to Canadian oil if it is required for 'national security' reasons. They wouldn't even have to publically say what the threat was, only that they needed it to 'combat' a threat.
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/44/100.html
Quote:
Typical... of course I truly loved that little quote "Direct Restriction of American Rights to Canadian Gas" Seriously, WTF are people smoking these days, because I think I need some to understand the moronity in our governments. *smacks head*
.....A 1985 U.S. congressional report called Canada's regulatory control over its natural gas a "direct restriction of American rights to Canadian gas" and called for the American government to make guaranteed access to Canadian supplies a point of national security. Ann Hughes, the ranking U.S. Commerce Department negotiator, was forthright about her country's wasteful energy habits, and admitted that Canada's energy, secured by the free-trade deal, would forestall conservation practices in the United States. Edward Ney, then U.S. ambassador to Canada, said later that Canada's energy reserves were the prime motivation for the United States in the negotiations.
Quote:
F'ing Mulroney you F'Wit.... Why the hell do we keep getting PM's who have no ballz? I oughta grab my stupid stick and beat the snot out of the whole lot of em!
.....The Mulroney government deregulated oil and gas exports and dismantled most restrictions on American foreign investment in the energy industry, once again opening up Canada's resources to domination by an ever-smaller, ever-more powerful group of transnational corporations with no interest in Canada.
Quote:
You know, I sorta remember reading this stuff years ago, but was during a time in which I didn't really care..... nor was I of any legal age to do anything about it.
..... The trade agreements exempted Canadian government subsidies for oil and gas exploration from trade challenge, ensuring that Canadian public funds would continue to pay for uncontrolled and environmentally destructive fossil-fuel exploration -- a process that has already destroyed habitats in the North and that threatens the sensitive spawning grounds off Cape Breton and Newfoundland, all to the benefit of transnational corporations.
The National Energy Board was stripped of its powers and the "vital-supply safeguard" that had required Canada to maintain a 25-year surplus of natural gas was dismantled. No government agency or law now exists to ensure that Canadians have adequate supplies of energy in the future.
Export applicants, Canadian or American, were no longer required to file an export impact assessment and the all-Canadian gas distribution system was abandoned, setting off a frantic round of North-South pipeline construction. Export taxes on our energy supplies were banned. Thus our governments lost a source of tax revenue, and American customers, who don't have to pay the GST, gained a price advantage over Canadian consumers.
The National Energy Board was stripped of its powers and the "vital-supply safeguard" that had required Canada to maintain a 25-year surplus of natural gas was dismantled. No government agency or law now exists to ensure that Canadians have adequate supplies of energy in the future.
Export applicants, Canadian or American, were no longer required to file an export impact assessment and the all-Canadian gas distribution system was abandoned, setting off a frantic round of North-South pipeline construction. Export taxes on our energy supplies were banned. Thus our governments lost a source of tax revenue, and American customers, who don't have to pay the GST, gained a price advantage over Canadian consumers.
See, this is why I have always hated our forms of Government, US and Canada alike.... Representational my arse.
Quote:
Well you're directly along the lines of my own thinking.... back around when I was 20 or so, I came up with a form of government which cut the neck right off scams and screw overs such as these. I did post a tid bit of it in a thread here a while back but wasn't really the best place for it.
Instead of fighting the military, and in all seriousness I don't see that as having a very good outcome, it would seem to be better to dismantle the top few layers of those who are calling the shots these days. Both countries need the support of the military, right now it supports the very few who have power, they need to change to support the 'many'.
I may yet have to make a thread about it alone for others to read here. It is and always will be a work in progress and can only improve with more people looking though it and balancing out the concepts to something that not only will work, that will give power back to the collective of the country, but also gives those in the new government a job, not power. Their job is to do what the people want, not what they think we want. It shows methods of free health care, free education, free housing.... pretty much everything is free, so long as you are contributing to the society in which you live in. Capitalism is one of the biggest cavities as to why things are so screwed up and will continue to be screwed up/getting worse. My method is not anything relating to Communism of course, as even Communism had currency still involved at the governmental level. This method can only become more stronger as more people put more input into it. It is not a one-man concept, nor it is directly original in my own thinking, but a hybred of various forms of government which have been used and have worked centuries ago, and parts have worked for centuries past.... they can work again, esspecially with better technology today, more connection with one another such as this is, and with previous lessons learned.
Although it seems as though that window of chance is now closing day by day with these Unification and Taking it up the arse tactics both our governments are performing. Based on a collective of actions over the years, soon we're either going to be pinned under police states (US and Canada, much more then what we currently are) or we'll be turned into glowing monkies from the up coming war.
Fighting head on with either country's military is of course a tricky process (For both sides) even with a well formed and trained local independant malitia(s). Now with the dumb ass transfer ability of each country being able to send in one another's military to do their dirty work, it certainly doesn't look good.... until instability in communications between governments and their technology are compromised in some way and propaganda methods are interupted. That of course can occur with this lovely new World War on our door steps.... or by us the people, both in the US and Canada standing up and fighting the governments directly.
Don't forget, our militaries are still us, and are still human. We make the armies, they direct them. It is one thing to send our children off to kill people we have no relation or understanding of.... but turning them on our own people, or our own neighbors will very well be the end of the strength of those militaries. And I also don't see them logically doing this when we are fighting additional wars over seas.
Both governments and militaries are stretched thin as it is, and they're running out of cards.... but they still have some bluffs.
