Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 10,292 
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Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
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Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
January 12th, 2008, 08:46 PM
How the New England Journal of Medicine Undercounted Iraqi Civilian Deaths
By ANDREW COCKBURN
Almost five years into the destruction of Iraq, the orthodox rule of thumb for assessing statistical tabulations of the civilian death toll is becoming clear: any figure will do so long as it is substantially lower than that computed by the Johns Hopkins researchers in their 2004 and 2006 studies. Their findings, based on the most orthodox sampling methodology and published in the Lancet after extensive peer review, estimated the post-invasion death toll by 2006 at about 655,000. Predictably, this shocking assessment drew howls of ignorant abuse from self-interested parties, including George Bush ("not credible") and Tony Blair.
Now we have a new result complied by the Iraqi Ministry of Health under the sponsorship of the World Health Organization and published in the once reputable New England Journal of Medicine, (NEJM) estimating the number of Iraqis murdered, directly or indirectly, by George Bush and his willing executioners at 151,000--far less than the most recent Johns Hopkins estimate. Due to its adherence to the rule cited above, this figure has been greeted with respectful attention in press reports, along with swipes at the Hopkins effort as having, as the New York Times had to remind readers, "come under criticism for its methodology."
http://www.counterpunch.org/
Weekend Edition
January 12 / 13, 2008
Gross Distortions, Sloppy Methodology and Tendentious ReportingJanuary 12 / 13, 2008
How the New England Journal of Medicine Undercounted Iraqi Civilian Deaths
By ANDREW COCKBURN
Almost five years into the destruction of Iraq, the orthodox rule of thumb for assessing statistical tabulations of the civilian death toll is becoming clear: any figure will do so long as it is substantially lower than that computed by the Johns Hopkins researchers in their 2004 and 2006 studies. Their findings, based on the most orthodox sampling methodology and published in the Lancet after extensive peer review, estimated the post-invasion death toll by 2006 at about 655,000. Predictably, this shocking assessment drew howls of ignorant abuse from self-interested parties, including George Bush ("not credible") and Tony Blair.
Now we have a new result complied by the Iraqi Ministry of Health under the sponsorship of the World Health Organization and published in the once reputable New England Journal of Medicine, (NEJM) estimating the number of Iraqis murdered, directly or indirectly, by George Bush and his willing executioners at 151,000--far less than the most recent Johns Hopkins estimate. Due to its adherence to the rule cited above, this figure has been greeted with respectful attention in press reports, along with swipes at the Hopkins effort as having, as the New York Times had to remind readers, "come under criticism for its methodology."
http://www.counterpunch.org/
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
January 12th, 2008, 10:12 PM
Beaver...
What would you like people to do Beaver? The neo-cons who still believe that Saddam Hussein had stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction and intended to "destroy the west" don't care. The folk who despite being told that the "threat" of Iran's nuclear enrichment progamme has been over-stated and manipulated don't care. There are no minds at Canadian Content that have exhibited anything even vaguely resembling an "open-mind" or appear in any way available to serious self-examination in their desperate beliefs in the absolute correctness of the "war on terrorism" and aren't prepared to look beyond the immediate. It's not in their nature Beaver. These people despite being faced time and time again with the lies and corruption of governments in Canada and the United States, don't give a sheat and are far more enthusiastic to personalize criticism and dismissals using the formula of "the tinfoil hat brigade" and "conspiracy theory" than they're willing to connect the dots available that might reveal the absurdity of the carte-blanche they've given to to the current rabble of politicians in Ottawa and Washington....
Convincing them to take a second look is impossible and regarded as personal insult because you dare question the resolve of the adherents to willing self-delusion. It's not going to make any difference to anyone Beve so why bother?
Beaver...
What would you like people to do Beaver? The neo-cons who still believe that Saddam Hussein had stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction and intended to "destroy the west" don't care. The folk who despite being told that the "threat" of Iran's nuclear enrichment progamme has been over-stated and manipulated don't care. There are no minds at Canadian Content that have exhibited anything even vaguely resembling an "open-mind" or appear in any way available to serious self-examination in their desperate beliefs in the absolute correctness of the "war on terrorism" and aren't prepared to look beyond the immediate. It's not in their nature Beaver. These people despite being faced time and time again with the lies and corruption of governments in Canada and the United States, don't give a sheat and are far more enthusiastic to personalize criticism and dismissals using the formula of "the tinfoil hat brigade" and "conspiracy theory" than they're willing to connect the dots available that might reveal the absurdity of the carte-blanche they've given to to the current rabble of politicians in Ottawa and Washington....
Convincing them to take a second look is impossible and regarded as personal insult because you dare question the resolve of the adherents to willing self-delusion. It's not going to make any difference to anyone Beve so why bother?
Council Member
Posts: 1,706
Location: Alberta, Canada
Location: Alberta, Canada
January 12th, 2008, 10:19 PM
I'm curious as to why it matters so much whether there were 200,000 deaths or 600,000 or a million? None of those numbers are more horrific than the other. Or do you 2 feel that 150,000 deaths aren't as bad as 500,000. Is 1 life worth less than 10? 1 death is ok, but 10 aren't ?
I'm curious as to why it matters so much whether there were 200,000 deaths or 600,000 or a million? None of those numbers are more horrific than the other. Or do you 2 feel that 150,000 deaths aren't as bad as 500,000. Is 1 life worth less than 10? 1 death is ok, but 10 aren't ?
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 10,292
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
January 12th, 2008, 10:19 PM
Well Mickey I'll tell why I persist, because they will learn that they can't sweep me under the rug with everything else and that;s all there is to it.haha
Well Mickey I'll tell why I persist, because they will learn that they can't sweep me under the rug with everything else and that;s all there is to it.haha
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 10,292
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
January 12th, 2008, 10:21 PM
Quoting gerryh
Yes you idiot one life is actually worth less than ten.
I'm curious as to why it matters so much whether there were 200,000 deaths or 600,000 or a million? None of those numbers are more horrific than the other. Or do you 2 feel that 150,000 deaths aren't as bad as 500,000. Is 1 life worth less than 10? 1 death is ok, but 10 aren't ?
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
January 12th, 2008, 10:27 PM
All our good American friends have the blood of innocent people on their hands Beaver and no amount of double-talk and conditional ethics and situational morality will change that one iota. They don't care what you think and they don't care what I think and they don't think......
All our good American friends have the blood of innocent people on their hands Beaver and no amount of double-talk and conditional ethics and situational morality will change that one iota. They don't care what you think and they don't care what I think and they don't think......
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 10,292
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
January 12th, 2008, 10:35 PM
Quoting MikeyDB
I know Mickey, Triple C invites discussion of a wide variety of issues, which is good. But if you touch the sacred cows too much they get all defensive of the system that's killing us, like they have this comfort zone that nothing is allowed to penetrate, they actually expect the party to last forever it seems.
All our good American friends have the blood of innocent people on their hands Beaver and no amount of double-talk and conditional ethics and situational morality will change that one iota. They don't care what you think and they don't care what I think and they don't think......
House Member
Posts: 4,573
Location: Minnesota: Gopher State
Location: Minnesota: Gopher State
January 12th, 2008, 10:48 PM
``All our good American friends have the blood of innocent people on their hands``
Not so. Bush and his ''elk'', which represent only a minority of Americans, have shed innocent blood.
Canada is currently in Afghanistan. Are all Canadians responsible for the deaths of innocents there??
``All our good American friends have the blood of innocent people on their hands``
Not so. Bush and his ''elk'', which represent only a minority of Americans, have shed innocent blood.
Canada is currently in Afghanistan. Are all Canadians responsible for the deaths of innocents there??
Council Member
Posts: 1,706
Location: Alberta, Canada
Location: Alberta, Canada
January 12th, 2008, 10:54 PM
That puts you on the same level as the other warmongers. No life is worth less than another.
Quoting darkbeaver
Yes you idiot one life is actually worth less than ten.
That puts you on the same level as the other warmongers. No life is worth less than another.
Newbie
Posts: 21
January 13th, 2008, 01:07 AM
Take a look at corporate and government budgets these days and you can be sure many posts on popular forums are bought and paid for.
This is an interesting article on the many techniques used, you will recognize many of them immediately
http://www.whale.to/m/disin.html
Quoting MikeyDB
Damn, that is one nice piece of writing but I gotta disagree. These things open up the minds of the silent majority, ask yourself how you became informed?
These people despite being faced time and time again with the lies and corruption of governments in Canada and the United States, don't give a sheat and are far more enthusiastic to personalize criticism and dismissals using the formula of "the tinfoil hat brigade" and "conspiracy theory" than they're willing to connect the dots available that might reveal the absurdity of the carte-blanche they've given to to the current rabble of politicians in Ottawa and Washington....
Convincing them to take a second look is impossible and regarded as personal insult because you dare question the resolve of the adherents to willing self-delusion. It's not going to make any difference to anyone Beve so why bother?
Convincing them to take a second look is impossible and regarded as personal insult because you dare question the resolve of the adherents to willing self-delusion. It's not going to make any difference to anyone Beve so why bother?
Take a look at corporate and government budgets these days and you can be sure many posts on popular forums are bought and paid for.
This is an interesting article on the many techniques used, you will recognize many of them immediately
http://www.whale.to/m/disin.html
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
January 13th, 2008, 09:39 AM
Canada's role in Afghanistan has been declared by the "powers that be" as one of killing the "enemy" as opposed to reconstuction and peace-keeping. That decision was made by a conservative government that's supposed to represent the will of the people of this nation. NOT acting to hold our government and our military accountable is tantamount to complicity in the deaths of innocents at the hands of a government trying to "make nice" once again with our neighbors to the south. Why is it that Canadians appear to accept the machinations of the Harper government when it comes to facilitating trade with the Columbian government but takes a much different stand when it comes to Afghanistan? One if not THE major source for funding the local warlords and supplying weapons to the Taliban is the continuing opium production. In Columbia that government has been complicit in corruption closely associated with the cocaine trade. Canada has continued to take the position of the United States with respect to the dynamics involved in Afghanistan. The U.S. of A, the dog being wagged by its tail in response to edicts from Israel and petroleum interests. While it is well known that the Taliban use the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan as an escape route, a supply route and a back door that permits more insurgents into Afghanistan and accepts this situation because the United States lacks the moral integrity to acknowledge that once again its position.."nations which harbor terrorists will be held accountable" is a hypocritical and ethically situational compromise when it comes to Pakistan. Taliban able to gain respite from any action in Afghanistan by scurrying across the border into Pakistan is entirely similar in effect as were the supply lines you may recall as the Ho Chi Minh trail.
Is it reasonble to expect that a radical Islamist gang operating in Afghanistan against Canadian troops can be effectively interdicted when they have support in and access to Pakistan through the excuse for border control that the government of Pakistan uses to sweat Washington for money and arms? I'd suggest to you that like Viet Nam, Taliban forces are receiving support and materiel through this nonfunctional border....
It is reasonable therefore to engage in the "classical" type of warfare with the Taliban? No more reasonable than it was to engage the VC while they were supplied by China. Is it acceptable today as it was in the Nam to pooh-pooh civilian losses when napalm and chemical weapons destroyed villages farms livlihoods and burned women and children alive?
It certainly appears that a similar devastation visited on the people of Afghanistan by Canadian and American forces, by the Taliban and opium warlords seeking the favor of the Taliban is an acceptable circumstance to the majority of Canadians. If it weren't, surely the "True North Strong and Free" would send a clear message to Ottawa and our child-prime minister that the U.S. be pressed to end complicity in the Afghanistan debacle by cutting off relations with Pakistan, destroying the poppy fields to end the warlords drug traffic and take action against the root of the problem instead of killing innocent bystanders.
Quoting gopher
Absolutely!
``All our good American friends have the blood of innocent people on their hands``
Not so. Bush and his ''elk'', which represent only a minority of Americans, have shed innocent blood.
Canada is currently in Afghanistan. Are all Canadians responsible for the deaths of innocents there??
Not so. Bush and his ''elk'', which represent only a minority of Americans, have shed innocent blood.
Canada is currently in Afghanistan. Are all Canadians responsible for the deaths of innocents there??
Canada's role in Afghanistan has been declared by the "powers that be" as one of killing the "enemy" as opposed to reconstuction and peace-keeping. That decision was made by a conservative government that's supposed to represent the will of the people of this nation. NOT acting to hold our government and our military accountable is tantamount to complicity in the deaths of innocents at the hands of a government trying to "make nice" once again with our neighbors to the south. Why is it that Canadians appear to accept the machinations of the Harper government when it comes to facilitating trade with the Columbian government but takes a much different stand when it comes to Afghanistan? One if not THE major source for funding the local warlords and supplying weapons to the Taliban is the continuing opium production. In Columbia that government has been complicit in corruption closely associated with the cocaine trade. Canada has continued to take the position of the United States with respect to the dynamics involved in Afghanistan. The U.S. of A, the dog being wagged by its tail in response to edicts from Israel and petroleum interests. While it is well known that the Taliban use the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan as an escape route, a supply route and a back door that permits more insurgents into Afghanistan and accepts this situation because the United States lacks the moral integrity to acknowledge that once again its position.."nations which harbor terrorists will be held accountable" is a hypocritical and ethically situational compromise when it comes to Pakistan. Taliban able to gain respite from any action in Afghanistan by scurrying across the border into Pakistan is entirely similar in effect as were the supply lines you may recall as the Ho Chi Minh trail.
Is it reasonble to expect that a radical Islamist gang operating in Afghanistan against Canadian troops can be effectively interdicted when they have support in and access to Pakistan through the excuse for border control that the government of Pakistan uses to sweat Washington for money and arms? I'd suggest to you that like Viet Nam, Taliban forces are receiving support and materiel through this nonfunctional border....
It is reasonable therefore to engage in the "classical" type of warfare with the Taliban? No more reasonable than it was to engage the VC while they were supplied by China. Is it acceptable today as it was in the Nam to pooh-pooh civilian losses when napalm and chemical weapons destroyed villages farms livlihoods and burned women and children alive?
It certainly appears that a similar devastation visited on the people of Afghanistan by Canadian and American forces, by the Taliban and opium warlords seeking the favor of the Taliban is an acceptable circumstance to the majority of Canadians. If it weren't, surely the "True North Strong and Free" would send a clear message to Ottawa and our child-prime minister that the U.S. be pressed to end complicity in the Afghanistan debacle by cutting off relations with Pakistan, destroying the poppy fields to end the warlords drug traffic and take action against the root of the problem instead of killing innocent bystanders.
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 10,292
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
January 13th, 2008, 09:50 AM
Well said Mickeydb.
Well said Mickeydb.
Council Member
Posts: 2,301
January 13th, 2008, 11:13 AM
Just like Germany is held responsible for the millions of dead Jews even now, after 70 years and two new generations!
If we, the Canadian voters, send our sons and daughters to Afghanistan to kill the Taliban and any Afghanistans standing in the way, then we are responsible! Who else???
Quoting gopher
Yes, we are collectively responsible for all the deaths our involvement there has caused!
``All our good American friends have the blood of innocent people on their hands``
Not so. Bush and his ''elk'', which represent only a minority of Americans, have shed innocent blood.
Canada is currently in Afghanistan. Are all Canadians responsible for the deaths of innocents there??
Not so. Bush and his ''elk'', which represent only a minority of Americans, have shed innocent blood.
Canada is currently in Afghanistan. Are all Canadians responsible for the deaths of innocents there??
Just like Germany is held responsible for the millions of dead Jews even now, after 70 years and two new generations!
If we, the Canadian voters, send our sons and daughters to Afghanistan to kill the Taliban and any Afghanistans standing in the way, then we are responsible! Who else???
get dirty
Posts: 277
Location: vancouver island
Location: vancouver island
January 13th, 2008, 11:19 AM
Quoting gerryh
But one is worth less than ten, so is 2, 3, etc...11 is not worth less than 10...get it?
That puts you on the same level as the other warmongers. No life is worth less than another.
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 10,292
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
January 18th, 2008, 03:18 PM
How many Smack?
Quoting EagleSmack
Well Smack I see you didn't leave us the true death toll to back your silly refutation of the truth.
Ah yes... the chickens are coming home to roost on this gross exageration about deaths in Iraq.
The Libs NEED more deaths...they NEED them.
The Libs NEED more deaths...they NEED them.
How many Smack?
House Member
Posts: 3,403
Location: USA
Location: USA
January 18th, 2008, 04:11 PM
This is derived from Iraq Body Count who actually does research as opposed to the ones who CRAVE high numbers to prove their point.
And by the way...it can be viewed as an anti-war website. When you read through it you will see.
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
But then again...it could be a False Flag operation/webpage run by the CIA to keep the count down!
Quoting darkbeaver
80K-88K civs killed as opposed to the 600K to 800K to 1 Million claimed by others.
Well Smack I see you didn't leave us the true death toll to back your silly refutation of the truth.
How many Smack?
How many Smack?
This is derived from Iraq Body Count who actually does research as opposed to the ones who CRAVE high numbers to prove their point.
And by the way...it can be viewed as an anti-war website. When you read through it you will see.
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
But then again...it could be a False Flag operation/webpage run by the CIA to keep the count down!
