Should we really copy Europe?

I think not

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The Evil Empire
Some Americans look to European countries such as France, Germany and its Scandinavian neighbors and suggest that we adopt some of their economic policies. I agree – we should look at Europe for the lessons they can teach us. Dr. Daniel Mitchell, research fellow at the Heritage Foundation, does just that in his paper titled "Fiscal Policy Lessons from Europe."

Government exceeds 50 percent of the GDP in France and Sweden and more than 45 percent in Germany and Italy, compared to U.S. federal, state and local spending of just under 36 percent. Government spending encourages people to rely on handouts rather than individual initiative, and the higher taxes to finance the handouts reduce incentives to work, save and invest. The European results shouldn't surprise anyone. U.S. per capita output in 2003 was $39,700, almost 40 percent higher than the average of $28,700 for European nations.


Over the last decade, the U.S. economy has grown twice as fast as European economies. In 2006, European unemployment averaged 8 percent, while the U.S. average was 4.7 percent. What's more, the percentage of Americans without a job for more than 12 months was 12.7 percent, while in Europe it was 42.6 percent. Since 1970, 57 million new jobs were created in the U.S., and just 4 million were created in Europe.

Dr. Mitchell cites a comparative study by Timbro, a Swedish think tank, showing that European countries rank with the poorest U.S. states in terms of living standards, roughly equal to Arkansas and Montana and only slightly ahead of West Virginia and Mississippi. Average living space in Europe is just under 1,000 square feet for the average household, while U.S. households enjoy an average of 1,875 square feet, and poor households 1,200 square feet. In terms of income levels, productivity, employment levels and R&D investment, according to Eurochambres (The Association of European Chambers of Commerce and Industry), it would take Europe about two decades to catch up with us, assuming we didn't grow further.

We don't have to rely on these statistics to make us not want to be like Europeans; just watch where the foot traffic and money flow. Some 400,000 European science and technology graduates live in the U.S. European migration to our country rose by 16 percent during the 1990s. In 1980, the Bureau of Economic Analysis put foreign direct investment in the U.S. at $127 billion. Today, it's more than $1.7 trillion. In 1980, there was $90 billion of foreign portfolio investment – government and private securities – in the U.S. Today, there's more than $4.6 trillion, much of it coming from Europeans who find our investment climate more attractive.

What's the European response to its self-made economic malaise? They don't repeal the laws that make for a poor investment climate. Instead, through the Paris-based Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, or OECD, they attack low-tax jurisdictions. Why? To support its welfare state, European nations must have high taxes, but if Europeans, as private citizens and businessmen, relocate, invest and save in other jurisdictions, it means less money is available to be taxed.

Dr. Mitchell addresses this issue through his research at the Center for Freedom and Prosperity. The OECD has a blacklist for countries they've identified as "tax havens." The blacklisted countries include Hong Kong, Macao, Malaysia (Labuan) and Singapore. Also targeted are Andorra, Brunei, Costa Rica, Dubai, Guatemala, Liberia, Liechtenstein, the Marshall Islands, Monaco, the Philippines and Uruguay. The blacklisted jurisdictions have strong financial privacy laws and low or zero rates of tax.
The OECD member countries want the so-called tax havens to change their laws to help them identify the earnings of their citizens. Most of all, OECD wants these countries to legislate higher taxes so as to reduce their appeal. A suggestion that we should be more like Europe is the same as one suggesting that we should be poorer.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53052
 

Curiosity

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Jul 30, 2005
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LOL Toro I thought you'd have some wisdom ... and you did hahaha

Reading ITN's article I just had a panic attack thinking if all our states were little countries like Europe and
we had different kings/queens/dictators, etc., different monetary values and denominators, strange laws from country to country and horror of horrors to me - new languages to learn....

Well we would be diverse and accomplished in many ways I think.... as Europe has been, but unification was a start to operating as one to gain strength - it would seem however they are proceeding with all the old ways instead of finding some good examples to "imprint".....

Perhaps having so many wars as they have over their long histories has worn them down a bit... and their long explorations and empire building and keeping colonials towing the lines....they have ventured beyond their capabilities.....and have now come home to roost....but it's a great read...
 

Blackleaf

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Oct 9, 2004
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Some Americans look to European countries such as France, Germany and its Scandinavian neighbors and suggest that we adopt some of their economic policies

I can understand the US adopting the successful economic policies of Scandinavia and Britain, but why would you adopt those of France and Germany? The French and Germans don't know how to run an economy to save their lives.
 

Logic 7

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Jul 17, 2006
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Some Americans look to European countries such as France, Germany and its Scandinavian neighbors and suggest that we adopt some of their economic policies. I agree – we should look at Europe for the lessons they can teach us. Dr. Daniel Mitchell, research fellow at the Heritage Foundation, does just that in his paper titled "Fiscal Policy Lessons from Europe."



Why us would copy the eu-economy?? According to Toro( an expert in economy) the us economy is going way better than the EU.
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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Well, any human institution no matter how well it is managed can always be improved upon.
 

Daz_Hockey

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Nov 21, 2005
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Why us would copy the eu-economy?? According to Toro( an expert in economy) the us economy is going way better than the EU.

WELL......as much as I dislike the EU, I'm afraid Toro is quite wrong, the capacity for growth and global reach of the EU is MUCH faster growing and more influencial than the US, the US knows it's it's main competitor as a western superpower.

The US, as a union is pretty stagnant at the moment, where as the capacity for growth by the EU (Which's GDP is already at the same level as the US) is HUGE...so, nah Toro is very wrong there, and to be honest, his view is quite subjective.

and the .org of that website gives it away, it's so subjective, it's plainly wrong.

But nope, I completely disagree with the EU, it's principals are wrong, you cannot create a federalist Union out of countless independant countries (not states) with millenia's of history in each of them...not to mention many lanaguages.
 

Toro

Senate Member
WELL......as much as I dislike the EU, I'm afraid Toro is quite wrong, the capacity for growth and global reach of the EU is MUCH faster growing and more influencial than the US, the US knows it's it's main competitor as a western superpower.

The US, as a union is pretty stagnant at the moment, where as the capacity for growth by the EU (Which's GDP is already at the same level as the US) is HUGE...so, nah Toro is very wrong there, and to be honest, his view is quite subjective.

and the .org of that website gives it away, it's so subjective, it's plainly wrong.

Rhetoric and reality are two different things, Daz.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by ".org". The OECD isn't "subjective". If you believe this to be the case, I'd suggest you read up a bit before commenting about what is and is not subjective.

I've posted this before, but I'll post it again. I'll get around to updating the past two years.

This is OECD data

http://www.oecd.org/document/28/0,2340,en_...1_1_1_1,00.html

Use tables 1b for the GDP data, and for foreign exchange rates use table C1. The data is after inflation and currency fluctuations, adjusted for purchasing power parity. The data is in dollars, so negative growth rates could be a reflection of changes in exchange rates as opposed to nominal growth. But since we are comparing across countries, you can use dollars or euros or gold or whatever, and the relative performance is the same.

The OECD data starts in 1970.

These are the growth rates

1970-2003
Australia 1.5%
Canada 2.3%
France 2.4%
Germany 4.6%
Italy -0.8%
Japan 6.6%
Spain 0.8%
Sweden 0.6%
UK 1.1%
USA 3.1%

1970-1980
Australia 3.2%
Canada 3.0%
France 6.2%
Germany 10.2%
Italy 0.4%
Japan 9.4%
Spain 3.4%
Sweden 4.0%
UK 1.6%
USA 3.3%

1980-1990
Australia -0.8%
Canada 2.8%
France 0.0%
Germany 3.5%
Italy -1.1%
Japan 8.7%
Spain -0.6%
Sweden -1.2%
UK -0.1%
USA 3.2%

1990-2000
Australia 0.5%
Canada 0.5%
France -0.6%
Germany -0.6%
Italy -4.0%
Japan 4.4%
Spain -3.0%
Sweden -2.4%
UK 0.8%
USA 3.3%

1995-2003
Australia 2.1%
Canada 3.2%
France 0.4%
Germany -1.0%
Italy 0.8%
Japan -1.7%
Spain 1.4%
Sweden 1.0%
UK 3.2%
USA 3.3%

US GDP
2004 3.9%
2005 3.2%

http://bea.gov/bea/newsrel/gdpnewsrelease.htm

If the European Union were a state in the USA it would belong to the poorest group of states. France, Italy, Great Britain and Germany have lower GDP per capita than all but four of the states in the United States. In fact, GDP per capita is lower in the vast majority of the EU-countries (EU 15) than in most of the individual American states. This puts Europeans at a level of prosperity on par with states such as Arkansas, Mississippi and West Virginia. Only the miniscule country of Luxembourg has higher per capita GDP than the average state in the USA. The results of the new study represent a grave critique of European economic policy.
http://www.timbro.com/euvsusa/

Yeah, Europe has done so much better than America.
 

Daz_Hockey

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Nov 21, 2005
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The combined GDP of the EU is roughly the same as the US...my point was it's potential for growth, it has the potential to become much bigger than the US, it's already matched it on many fronts.

The .org was a reference to the fact .org is a north American address reference.

But like I said, I despise the EU, I would like to crush it, but facts are facts...it's got huge potential (bigger thn that of the US)
 

Toro

Senate Member
The combined GDP of the EU is roughly the same as the US...my point was it's potential for growth, it has the potential to become much bigger than the US, it's already matched it on many fronts.

The .org was a reference to the fact .org is a north American address reference.

But like I said, I despise the EU, I would like to crush it, but facts are facts...it's got huge potential (bigger thn that of the US)


Size and potential are different things Daz. Until continental Europe reforms, then the EU will continue to grower slower than America.
 

Daz_Hockey

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Nov 21, 2005
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Size and potential are different things Daz. Until continental Europe reforms, then the EU will continue to grower slower than America.

I think the EU is corrupt and a socialist graveyard, but if it were pushing in one direction it would be massive, and it's sphere of influence would be phenominal....you know it's officially a super-power right?
 

Daz_Hockey

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Nov 21, 2005
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The French, Germans and Italians are holding the EU back. Blackleaf's article about France being kicked out of the EU names a few of the problems France causes.

So what do you suggest?, an Anglo-Scandinavian allience?, I certainly agree with that statement, although I do worry now that those countries havent lived up to the true free-roaming EU agreement that my town is now populated with a minority of 20% poles.