Have you thought about it

JonB2004

Council Member
Mar 10, 2006
1,188
0
36
I sat down last night and thought about GWB and the war in Iraq. People have suggested, including myself, that there were no WMDs in Iraq and GWB invaded Iraq for its oil.

Well, have you ever thought that GWB actually believed that Saddam possesed WMDs? Did you ever think that GWB invaded Iraq to liberate it? If GWB really wanted Iraq's oil, wouldn't he make sure oil production was at 100%? Oil production in Iraq, to my knowledge, isn't at 100%. That right there suggests that he doesn't want oil. That just shows that he really wants to help Iraq.

Just think about that.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
33
48
The Evil Empire
Well I don't think Bush wanted to help Iraq, I don't think he went their for the oil either. I believe the whole issue was geopolitical security.

I'll duck now and wait for the onslaught.
 

JonB2004

Council Member
Mar 10, 2006
1,188
0
36
RE: Have you thought abou

Geopolitical? Sorry, I haven't heard that word before.

Here comes the "You're stupid" comments.
 

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
3,500
48
48
California
I don't think it was all about oil, but I do think we wouldn't have given a rat's ass about that place if not for oil.

I do actually believe Bush wants freedom for the Iraqi people, but I don't think that alone would have been enough to get the US to invade.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
33
48
The Evil Empire
Re: RE: Have you thought abou

JonB2004 said:
Geopolitical? Sorry, I haven't heard that word before.

Here comes the "You're stupid" comments.

Relax Jon, you're young, you'll learn.

Geopolitics is a combination of geographic and political factors relating to or influencing a nation or region
 

athabaska

Electoral Member
Dec 26, 2005
313
0
16
Well, I suppose Hitler really wanted to promote the German culture and really believed Jews were evil.

What's your point? George W. bush really believed Iraqinam is the right course of action? So that makes him either stupid or delussional.
 

athabaska

Electoral Member
Dec 26, 2005
313
0
16
Re: RE: Have you thought about it

tracy said:
I don't think it was all about oil, but I do think we wouldn't have given a rat's ass about that place if not for oil.

I do actually believe Bush wants freedom for the Iraqi people, but I don't think that alone would have been enough to get the US to invade.

Agreed. The immediacy of the moment was not 'oil' but the only reason for the general focus on the region is oil. There's black Africa states that have names most Americans have never heard of...they are dictatorships with horrific abuse...but they have no oil. Time to invade and 'bring freedom and democracy' to the Central African Republic? Togo? Malawi? Mali? Tchad...and 35 other African states?

Or...Saudi Arabia? Kuwait? Yemen? Uzbekistan?...or as Bush puts it ' 'our good friends'.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
33
48
The Evil Empire
I can't agree with that last statement you made athabaska, why do you expect the US to go in and "liberate" those countries? What's the EU doing? Russia? China? Canada? What about the UN?

You don't have to be a superpower to overthrow a dictatorship, a "coalition of the willing" will do just fine.
 

athabaska

Electoral Member
Dec 26, 2005
313
0
16
I think not said:
I can't agree with that last statement you made athabaska, why do you expect the US to go in and "liberate" those countries? What's the EU doing? Russia? China? Canada? What about the UN?

You don't have to be a superpower to overthrow a dictatorship, a "coalition of the willing" will do just fine.

You missed my poor use of irony. No, I don't expect the U.S., to go in to those countries. And no, the USA shouldn't try and nation build in Iraq.

Coalitions of the willing are no more than White Man's burden by another name. I have no problem at pre-emptive attack to stop a threat (N. Korea) but not to nation build (Iraq).
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
3,786
0
36
Toronto
www.mytimenow.net
JonB2004 said:
I sat down last night and thought about GWB and the war in Iraq. People have suggested, including myself, that there were no WMDs in Iraq and GWB invaded Iraq for its oil.

Well, have you ever thought that GWB actually believed that Saddam possesed WMDs? Did you ever think that GWB invaded Iraq to liberate it? If GWB really wanted Iraq's oil, wouldn't he make sure oil production was at 100%? Oil production in Iraq, to my knowledge, isn't at 100%. That right there suggests that he doesn't want oil. That just shows that he really wants to help Iraq.

Just think about that.


Well the only reason why the USA would know Saddam had any WMD's as in Chemical weapons, is because the USA holds the receipt for them, if you know what I mean.

Now I'm a supporter of peace keeping efforts in Iraq and not the actual war which lead to it.

But if you remember the Bush Admin believed that the war would be over in days or months, that they would be welcomed as liberators, that the occupation would be shorter then the war itself, that the war would pay for itself, that the rebuilding of Iraq would be self sustained by the oil produced by the country and that the "coalition of the willing" would grow. Not only didn't they find the WMD's they said Iraq had, but everything they said to sell the war to the public has not come threw. The only reason I support any western presance in Iraq now is for a simple reason, if the Americans or everyone else leaves the nation will go into chaos leading to much more death.

I however do believe this should be changed into a peace keeping mission.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
33
48
The Evil Empire
Finder said:
Well the only reason why the USA would know Saddam had any WMD's as in Chemical weapons, is because the USA holds the receipt for them, if you know what I mean.

I don't, perhaps you can clraify for me based on this data:

Germany
By far Germany had the largest role in Iraq’s WMD program. As part of Project 922, German firms such as Karl Kobe helped build Iraqi Chemical weapons facilities such as laboratories, bunkers, an administrative building, and first production buildings in the early 1980s under the cover of a pesticide plant. Other German firms sent 1,027 tons of precursors of Mustard, Sarin, Tabun, and Tear gasses in all. This work allowed Iraq to produce 150 tons of mustard agent and 60 tons of Tabun in 1983 and 1984 respectively, continuing throughout the decade. About 52% of Iraq’s international chemical weapon equipment was of German origin. Chemical weapons were used extensively against Iran by Iraq.

Five other German firms supplied equipment to manfacture botulin toxin and mycotoxin for germ warfare.

In 1988 German engineers presented centrifuge data that would help Iraq expand its nuclear weapons program. Laboratory equipment and other crucial information was provided, involving many German engineers.

France
France built Iraq’s Nuclear Osirak reactor in the late 1970s, but it was destroyed by Israeli jets in 1981. Later, a French company built a turnkey factory which helped make nuclear fuel.

France also provided glass-lined reactors, tanks, vessels, and columns used for the production of chemical weapons. Around 21% of Iraq’s international chemical weapon equipment was French. Strains of dual use biological material helped advance Iraq’s biological warfare program.

Switzerland
Swiss companies attempted to aid in Iraq’s nuclear weapons development in the form of specialized presses, milling machines, grinding machines, electrical discharge machines, and equipment for processing uranium to nuclear weapon grade.

Italy
Italy gave Iraq plutonium extraction facilities that advanced Iraq’s nuclear weapon program. 75,000 shells and rockets designed for chemical weapon use came from Italy. Between 1979 and 1982 Italy gave depleted, natural, and low-enriched uranium.

Brazil
Brazil secretly aided the Iraqi nuclear weapon program. Supplied natural uranium dioxide between 1981 and 1982 without notifying the IAEA. About 100 tons of Mustard gas came from Brazil.

United States
The U.S. exported $500 million of dual use exports to Iraq that were approved by the Commerce department. Among them were advanced computers, some of which were used in Iraq’s nuclear program, and strains of anthrax and botulinum which helped Iraq’s biological warfare capabilities in the late 1980s.

Despite being a minority supplier to Iraq, the U.S. often is the target for most of the blame.

United Kingdom
The U.K. sent advanced tools and computers to Iraq, some of which were used in Iraq’s nuclear program.

Austria
An Austrian company gave Iraq calutrons for enriching uranium. The nation also provided heat exchangers, tanks, condensers, and columns for the Iraqi chemical weapons infrastructure, 16% of the international sales.

Singapore
Singapore gave 4,515 tons of precursors for VX, sarin, tabun, and mustard gasses to Iraq.

Netherlands
The Dutch gave 4,261 tons of precursors for sarin, tabun, mustard, and tear gasses to Iraq.

Egypt
Egypt gave 2,400 tons of tabun and sarin precursors to Iraq and 28,500 tons of weapons designed for carrying chemical munitions.

India
India gave 2,343 tons of precursors to VX, tabun, Sarin, and mustard gasses.

Luxembourg
Luxembourg gave Iraq 650 tons of mustard gas precursors.

Spain
Spain gave Iraq 57,500 munitions designed for carrying chemical weapons. In addition, they provided reactors, condensers, columns and tanks for Iraq’s chemical warfare program, 4.4% of the international sales.

China
China provided 45,000 munitions designed for chemical warfare.

Portugal
Portugal provided yellowcake between 1980 and 1982.

Niger
Niger also provided yellowcake in 1981.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#United_States[/quote]
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
3,786
0
36
Toronto
www.mytimenow.net
I think not said:
Finder said:
Well the only reason why the USA would know Saddam had any WMD's as in Chemical weapons, is because the USA holds the receipt for them, if you know what I mean.

I don't, perhaps you can clraify for me based on this data:

Germany
By far Germany had the largest role in Iraq’s WMD program. As part of Project 922, German firms such as Karl Kobe helped build Iraqi Chemical weapons facilities such as laboratories, bunkers, an administrative building, and first production buildings in the early 1980s under the cover of a pesticide plant. Other German firms sent 1,027 tons of precursors of Mustard, Sarin, Tabun, and Tear gasses in all. This work allowed Iraq to produce 150 tons of mustard agent and 60 tons of Tabun in 1983 and 1984 respectively, continuing throughout the decade. About 52% of Iraq’s international chemical weapon equipment was of German origin. Chemical weapons were used extensively against Iran by Iraq.

Five other German firms supplied equipment to manfacture botulin toxin and mycotoxin for germ warfare.

In 1988 German engineers presented centrifuge data that would help Iraq expand its nuclear weapons program. Laboratory equipment and other crucial information was provided, involving many German engineers.

France
France built Iraq’s Nuclear Osirak reactor in the late 1970s, but it was destroyed by Israeli jets in 1981. Later, a French company built a turnkey factory which helped make nuclear fuel.

France also provided glass-lined reactors, tanks, vessels, and columns used for the production of chemical weapons. Around 21% of Iraq’s international chemical weapon equipment was French. Strains of dual use biological material helped advance Iraq’s biological warfare program.

Switzerland
Swiss companies attempted to aid in Iraq’s nuclear weapons development in the form of specialized presses, milling machines, grinding machines, electrical discharge machines, and equipment for processing uranium to nuclear weapon grade.

Italy
Italy gave Iraq plutonium extraction facilities that advanced Iraq’s nuclear weapon program. 75,000 shells and rockets designed for chemical weapon use came from Italy. Between 1979 and 1982 Italy gave depleted, natural, and low-enriched uranium.

Brazil
Brazil secretly aided the Iraqi nuclear weapon program. Supplied natural uranium dioxide between 1981 and 1982 without notifying the IAEA. About 100 tons of Mustard gas came from Brazil.

United States
The U.S. exported $500 million of dual use exports to Iraq that were approved by the Commerce department. Among them were advanced computers, some of which were used in Iraq’s nuclear program, and strains of anthrax and botulinum which helped Iraq’s biological warfare capabilities in the late 1980s.

Despite being a minority supplier to Iraq, the U.S. often is the target for most of the blame.

United Kingdom
The U.K. sent advanced tools and computers to Iraq, some of which were used in Iraq’s nuclear program.

Austria
An Austrian company gave Iraq calutrons for enriching uranium. The nation also provided heat exchangers, tanks, condensers, and columns for the Iraqi chemical weapons infrastructure, 16% of the international sales.

Singapore
Singapore gave 4,515 tons of precursors for VX, sarin, tabun, and mustard gasses to Iraq.

Netherlands
The Dutch gave 4,261 tons of precursors for sarin, tabun, mustard, and tear gasses to Iraq.

Egypt
Egypt gave 2,400 tons of tabun and sarin precursors to Iraq and 28,500 tons of weapons designed for carrying chemical munitions.

India
India gave 2,343 tons of precursors to VX, tabun, Sarin, and mustard gasses.

Luxembourg
Luxembourg gave Iraq 650 tons of mustard gas precursors.

Spain
Spain gave Iraq 57,500 munitions designed for carrying chemical weapons. In addition, they provided reactors, condensers, columns and tanks for Iraq’s chemical warfare program, 4.4% of the international sales.

China
China provided 45,000 munitions designed for chemical warfare.

Portugal
Portugal provided yellowcake between 1980 and 1982.

Niger
Niger also provided yellowcake in 1981.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#United_States
[/quote]


Give me a break who do you think made these deals for Iraq in the 1980's and who supported Iraq the most during the Iran-Iraq war.



Who's money do you think bought those weapons to be used on the Iranians, and with American support helped prolong a war which should have ended a lot sooner.


http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/iraq21.pdf

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/iraq24.pdf

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/iraq25.pdf

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/iraq28.pdf

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/iraq31.pdf


Yes much of the shipping of Chemical weapons was done covertly but lucky enough for hstory the USA felt that Saddam would not become as big as a problem as he did become and some support was done overtly. I could list Iraq-US documents all day from the 1980's. If the USA finances, weapons sales between lets say China and Iraq and thus also turns a blind eye to it does that not make the USA just as responcible as per say China. Just because the USA at times has tried to keep it's hands cleans by not actually having the the Iraqis using actual american made weaponery, just gives the American government an extra level of denial.

ITN, America's envolvement with Saddam and Iraq is widely known and barely even dennied to this day. Perhaps some people on the right tend to try to down play it threw smoke and mirrors of trying to make it look as if the USA didn't sell that much to Iraq, but most of those weapons the Iraqis used on Iran and the weapons we blew up in gulf war one were pretty much bought with American tax dollars.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
33
48
The Evil Empire
Finder

You either didn't read the PDF links you posted or you thought I wouldn't bother, either way those links prove my point. So I suggest you read them.

And you have a nice photo between Rumsfeld and Saddam, how nice, is this guy guilty by a photo also?



How about this guy?