'America' vs. USA

[Naci_Sey]

This is a pet peeve; in fact, this issue makes me furious.

It has become the norm in the USA for citizens of that country to refer to it as 'America' and to themselves as 'Americans'. Increasingly, members of other countries have begun to do the same, although there appears to be greater resistance among older Canadians and most citizens of Central and South American countries.

Prior to my 3-year postgraduate stint at Indiana University in Bloomington, this was 'just' a peeve, not yet a festering wound from a thorn. It took my experience as a mentor to other International students to provide the grounds for transition to the latter.

These students were bright and knowledgeable about global affairs, often considerably more than their hosts. However, many also were confused when I would correct them after they referred to me as an American. I'd say, no, I'm a Canadian. This didn't seem to help, because they'd only repeat, in confusion, "you are an American." I'd then resort to bringing out a globe or map and point to the differences geographically and to the border dividing Canada and the USA. These students would STILL be confused. I finally realized the problem. They assumed that when the President of the USA spoke on behalf of 'America', he was speaking for people throughout the Americas, that he was somehow the top-dog for the whole damn hemisphere!

Now I wondered at first if I was the only one so peeved about this that it had become 'an issue'. However, I soon found lots of company. Tellingly, most of that company was from Canada or from countries in Central or South America.

So my question is... Does the fact that USians have arbitrarily taken 'america' for themselves bother you? If yes, why? If not, why not?

 

[LittleRunningGag]

It kinda does, but I've been trying my best to refer to citizens of the United States as United Statians for a while now.

It isn't a huge deal to me, but at the same time I do prefer that people use the proper terminology when refering to something. ie The United Statians that I talk to on another board tend to refer to everything left of center as "liberal," when plainly that is an innaccurate McArthyism. And I try to correct them as often as possible.

Maybe this is just another one of these things.

 

[jimmoyer]

Naci_Sey, if you think about it, it's just a semantics
problem.

For example, most swim team members speak of
swimming laps. The old technical definition of
the word, lap, is finishing where you started.
So when they swim
50 lengths of a 50 meter pool, they say, " I swam
fifty laps."

It's just an easier word, laps, to use than saying the
word "lengths."

Had we called United States of America, IMAGINATION,
you'd still have a problem with us calling ourselves:
IMAGINEERS ???

Canadians, Mexicans, whatever, don't have this
semantical difficulty we gave ourselves.

And as far as LittleRunningGag's problem about
liberal and conservative labels, it is very true that
a conservative in France, as Chirac is, is quite liberal
by American standards.

You are labelled conservative or liberal within
the system you exist. A more system with more
government interaction will seem different than
a system with less government interference.

And labels ?

Sheeesh.

Big Deal !!!

What are labels ? Isn't every word a label ?
If we're not allowed to use certain words (i.e: labels)
than we have not learned the lesson George Orwell
taught us in the book, 1984, where Big Brother got
rid of certain words thus making it difficult for the
citizens to think a thought much less verbalize it.

And using one word to describe a chair is inifinitely
less tiring than having to describe each attribute
of a chair that is no doubt different from other chairs?

Does this political correctness seek to make speech
so much more mechanically difficult ???

 

[LittleRunningGag]

You are labelled conservative or liberal within
the system you exist. A more system with more
government interaction will seem different than
a system with less government interference.

The problem isn't that people are labeled. The problem is that using the word liberal instead of socialist is inaccurate.

The term liberal is used to define the center, where there is the state intervention. Moving away from the center in either direction indicates an increase in state intervention either in a regressive (conservative) or progressive (socialist) manner.

The primary issue is that when you distort the meaning of a word, you have to come up with new words to discribe the true meaning of the origional, in this case libertarianism.

 

[jimmoyer]

I disagree, LittleRunningGag.


Your definitions are interesting and informative.
And their derivations of the history of the word
is correct.

However, popular usage, whether you agree or not
does change or add a meaning to a word.

For example, the word, "gay."


But I'll requote your definition of the labels
because it is interesting and the last sentence
of your post regarding "libertarian-ism"
is overall historically accurate:

-------------------LittleRunningGag---------------------
The term liberal is used to define the center, where there is the state intervention.

Moving away from the center in either direction indicates an increase in state intervention either in a regressive (conservative) or progressive (socialist) manner.
-----------------end of quote-----------------------------

 

[LittleRunningGag]

Oops, typo.

That should read:

"The term liberal is used to define the center, where there is little state intervention."

 

[jimmoyer]

In popular usage in your country that definition
"might" hold true. However I suspect some of your
conservatives up there with you would dispute you.

In popular usage down here, that definition is arcane
and eminently disputabe.


In general, popular usage has made the labels mean
more government (liberals) and less government (conservatives)
despite a lot of hypocritical exceptions.

We know that historically the terms conservative
and classical liberal from John Stuart Mill's time has
done a 180 flip.

 

[LittleRunningGag]

The problem is that the term liberal, in that sense of the word, is only used like that in the US and a small percentage of Canadians. In Europe, for instance, the term liberal is used exactly how its supposed to be.

We still refer (correctly) to free democracies as "liberal democracies." Why use the term incorrectly in another place just because it is popular.

 

[jimmoyer]

Even conservatives use the phrase "liberal democracies"
in its classic sense, and even popular usage can handle
the difference when used in different contexts.

 

[#juan]

First of all,

A lap is not a length. A lap is a movement once around a course. A length is just that a single traverse of the length of a track or a field.

North America is the continent. The continent contains several countries, Canada, the United States, and Mexico.

The citizens of the U.S. can call themselve whatever they want but the citizens of all three countries are "Americans".

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Re: RE: 'America' vs. USA

And labels ?

Sheeesh.

Big Deal !!!

Ah, but they are a big deal, and carry a lot of baggage. Why do you suppose the women's movement tried to unsex the language by introducing gender-neutral terminology? Why did black people relabel themselves from negro and coloured? Why did homosexuals usurp the word gay as a new label for themselves?

Because labels have power and significance. And in that regard, getting back to the OP, yes it does bother me to be identified as an American, because I'm not. It's true that America is widely understood to mean the United States of America, and that America also refers generally to the western hemisphere, though usually you'll see it pluralized as the Americas, or in a combined form as North America, Latin America, and so forth. I've never been anywhere in the world where to be an American meant anything but a citizen of the United States of America, and thus in common parlance it's not correct for anyone to call me an American. Suppose Germany had decided to call itself Europe; you think any British or French citizen would then want to be identified as European?

And personally I think it's colossal arrogance for America to appropriate the generic name for this part of the world as a specific name for itself. You want a shorter name for your nation and yourselves, try Usania and Usanians.

 

[LittleRunningGag]

What it suggests though, is that only conservatives favour smaller government. When, in fact, that is not true. True liberals, the ones that support as little government as possible, get the shaft so to speak.

It also does a disservice to the right. It forces all those who refer to themselves as "on the right," who are instead just in favour of smaller government, to lump themselves in with the Christian Right (tm), and dilutes the true meaning of conservative (hating freedom).

 

[Naci_Sey]

Jimmoyer, try to imagine if the position were reversed, e.g., that:

- our two countries share the continent of North Canada and that there is also South Canada and Central Canada.
- your country is 'America' and occupies the southern half of North Canada.
- the country north of you is the 'United Provinces of Canada' (UPC).
- whenever the Prime Minister of the UPC speaks, he/she refers to his/her nation as Canada and to its people as Canadians.

First, can you see how confusing this could be to people who DON'T live in North, Central or South Canada? Second, how does it make you feel to hear a head of state constantly referring to 'Canada' and 'Canadians', thus giving the impression he/she speaks for the whole damn hemisphere, including your own country?

 

[jimmoyer]

It's not colossal arrogance, Dexter Sinister.

In fact your umbrage or those of others is duplicitous.

Rarely do any of you, in popular usage, use the
word American. You say you're CANADIAN.

Worldwide, people know the popular usage.

It's a fault of semantics, mechanical difficulty in
calling ourselves anything else.

For any of you to get on your high horse on such
a nonsense subject as this is not an honest appraisal
of the semantic fumbling we would have to go through
that you don't have to go through when you call
yourself a Canadian, not an American.

Go to Europe and call yourself American.

What duplicity !!!




We screwed up
calling ourselves the United State of America in
a hemisphere that has two American continents.

Just to satisfy your overly sensitive umbrage, let's
change the United States of America to the IMAGI-NATION, and we'll all run around calling ourselves
the Imagineers.


Sorry guys, this is is ridiculous.

With all due respect, because all of you do know better.

 

[Naci_Sey]

Re: RE: 'America' vs. USA

overly sensitive umbrage

I invited you to imagine if the position had been reversed; I wanted a discussion. You respond with insults.

This may seem to be a "nonsense subject" to you, but clearly it isn't so to a number of Canadians and others living in countries in Central and South America. It's also clear that the issue is a confusing one for some non-Westerners.

Fortunately, not all USians share your view and have expressed sympathy and support with 'the other side' on this issue.

 

[#juan]

Never mind yakking about our " overly sensitive umbrage"Jim. You are starting to sound like a school marm again. First, you lecture us, incorrectly, about the use of "laps" and "lengths", then you try to justify using the name of the whole continent as the name of the U.S.. Your country is the United States. That country is situated in the smaller part of North America. Does it annoy us that you presume to take the name of the whole continent as the name of your country? A little, but that you don't understand that annoyance is, part of your arrogance. The rest of the world sees that arrogance. Why can't you?

 

[selfactivated]

I think I see a third veiw, and I may be naive in the thinking of it but in my humble opinion this quote says my thoughts......

"I have no country to fight for: my country is the earth, and I am a citizen of the world."
-- Euguene V. Debs


Maybe when we start to see us as a planet with no boundries then differences in words wont matter.

 

[I think not]

There are many reasons why the citizens of the United States call themselves Americans, and I assure all of you, “arrogance” isn’t one of them. If there is any “arrogance” it rests with those who are being presumptuous that Americans lay claims to the name as part of American imperialism.

First and foremost the usage of the word America is not intended to locate the country on a map, but rather the proper name of the country (United States of America). Other examples are Commonwealth of Australia, People’s Republic of China, Republic of Indonesia, United States of Brazil (up until 1968, and I don't recall US citizens uprising on the usage of United States) etc. We are also the only country in the world with the name America in its official name, perhaps brevity also plays a role? The British could have easily called Canada, United Provinces of America, yes? How about Canadian Provinces of America? When the Spanish dominated all of South America, they were referred to as Spanish. Why didn’t they call themselves something else?

Second, the word Americans came to describe occupants of the thirteen British colonies by EUROPEANS in the mid 18th century, with a lot of contempt I might add. So if there is any “arrogance”, you can look towards Europe.

And last but not least, you can also blame the English language for its inflexibility in being precise. Other languages have clearly defined the citizens of the United States with something other than Americans (and guess what? WE DON’T MIND). You don’t have to go very far, just read the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), in French (for Canada) an American is referred to as étatsunien. Spanish (for Mexico) it’s estadounidense. Both meaning United Statian. What is awkward in pronunciation in English isn’t necessarily the case in other languages.

So if you add a bit of proper name, history and linguistic application, you see why United States citizens refer to themselves as Americans. The world called us that, we adopted it, the world continues to call us that, and when language permits, they are more specific.

And one last comment, the usage of the word American “annoys” those who are already “irritated” (putting it mildly) with the US.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Re: RE: 'America' vs. USA

Rarely do any of you, in popular usage, use the
word American. You say you're CANADIAN.

That's because that's what we are.

Worldwide, people know the popular usage.

Exactly. The popular usage is that American means a citizen of the United States.

Go to Europe and call yourself American.

What duplicity !!!

Trust me on this one jim, no Canadian would do that. It's Americans who pretend to be Canadians in Europe.

Sorry guys, this is is ridiculous.

To you, yes, but you're wrong. On the basis of your statements on this subject, I'd predict that you're a white American male who's had a good liberal education, and you have no idea what it means to be anything else.

 

[jimmoyer]

Dexter Sinister, if I didn't push you to the wall, you
might review my last post and relent that you damn
well know what I meant.

This is the most ridiculous thread I've ever seen
on this forum, and it's not for the lack I've never known
of an Italian geograher who lent his name to this
hemisphere.