Alabama Chief Justice: Islam and Buddhism don't have First Amendment protection


mentalfloss
+1
#1
Roy Moore's twisted history: Islam and Buddhism don't have First Amendment protection, chief justice says (commentary and live chat)

Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore spoke from the pulpit, and make no mistake, it was a sermon.

"Let's get real," he said. "Let's learn our history. Let's stop playing games."

Moore spoke to the Pastors-for-Life in Mississippi in January, but video from that speech only began to make its way around the Internet in the last week. In it, Moore argues that "religion," as defined in the First Amendment, applies only to God the Creator.

"Everybody, to include the United States Supreme Court, has been deceived as to one little word in the first amendment called 'religion,'" he said. "They can't define it."

Moore insisted that freedom of religion applies only the God of the Bible, and therefore the protections of the establishment clause do not extend to other religions, such as Islam and Buddhism.

"They don't want to do that, because that acknowledges the creator God," he said. "Buddha didn't create us. Muhammad didn't create us. It's the God of the Holy Scriptures."

According to Moore, the government and the Supreme Court should define religion as James Madison and George Mason did – "The duties we owe to the Creator and the manner of discharging it."

"They didn't bring a Koran on the pilgrim ship, Mayflower," he said. "Let's get real. Let's learn our history. Let's stop playing games."


Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore talks to the crowd after being sworn into office Friday, Jan. 11, 2013, at the Heflin-Torbert Judicial Building in Montgomery, Ala. (Julie Bennett / jbennett@al.com (external - login to view))
Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore spoke from the pulpit, and make no mistake, it was a sermon.

"Let's get real," he said. "Let's learn our history. Let's stop playing games."

Moore spoke to the Pastors-for-Life in Mississippi in January, but video from that speech only began to make its way around the Internet in the last week. In it, Moore argues that "religion," as defined in the First Amendment, applies only to God the Creator.

"Everybody, to include the United States Supreme Court, has been deceived as to one little word in the first amendment called 'religion,'" he said. "They can't define it."

Moore insisted that freedom of religion applies only the God of the Bible, and therefore the protections of the establishment clause do not extend to other religions, such as Islam and Buddhism.

"They don't want to do that, because that acknowledges the creator God," he said. "Buddha didn't create us. Muhammad didn't create us. It's the God of the Holy Scriptures."

According to Moore, the government and the Supreme Court should define religion as James Madison and George Mason did – "The duties we owe to the Creator and the manner of discharging it."

"They didn't bring a Koran on the pilgrim ship, Mayflower," he said. "Let's get real. Let's learn our history. Let's stop playing games."


OK, Judge. Let's get real, indeed. Let's learn our history and stop playing games.

When Moore quotes Mason in his speech, he takes that little snippet from the Virginia Declaration of Rights, which Mason wrote with help from Madison. (Section 16, which addresses the relationship of government and religion, is generally agreed to be primarily Madison's work.)

Here's the full text from Section 16: "That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other."

If there's any wonder why Moore would excise what he wanted from the context of the full quote – leaving out all that inconvenient business about forbearance, love, and charity – you haven't been paying much attention to the High Chief's career. You can't talk about love and maintain that quivering sneer -- certainly not Moore, who has argued that the court has the "power of the sword" to prevent homosexuals from perverting the minds of children.

The colonies, in which Madison, Mason and their fellow founding father and Virginian, Thomas Jefferson, came of age, were a hodgepodge of competing denominations, many of which were just fine using the power of the government to enforce a particular brand of belief. This was particularly true in Virginia, where all three men witnessed the Anglican Church persecute other denominations, particularly Separate Baptists. And we're not talking about the Happy Holidays vs. Merry Christmas nonsense TV talking heads today call persecution, but rather, Separate Baptist clergy jailed for sharing their beliefs, as Madison witnessed and decried early in his life. The lesson they learned from what they witnessed was that established religion and government were a toxic mix, and one should not be left in charge of the other.

Moore can argue if he wishes that the founders were comfortable with varying degrees of Christianity and not questioning the God the creator's role in government, and he's right that the pilgrims didn't bring the Koran with them over on the Mayflower. However, Jefferson did keep a copy of it in his library, and it's worth noting that Muslims believe they worship the same deity as Christians and Jews. If Moore wants to cling to his Creator God argument, then he must be willing to make room for Muslims in it, too, which his pulpit pabulum all but shows he is not.

After Patrick Henry proposed a tax to support "Teachers of the Christian Religion," Madison wrote the "Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments," in which he revisited the establishment clause in the Virginia Declaration of Rights, and emphasized again that there was no need for government to advocate for religion.

"To say that it is, is a contradiction to the Christian Religion itself, for every page of it disavows a dependence on the powers of this world," Madison wrote.

Henry's bill died quietly, and later Madison ushered through the Virginia General Assembly the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. Written by Jefferson, it insisted "that our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions any more than our opinions in physics or geometry," and it all but outlawed religious belief as a litmus test for holding office. When government endorses one religion over another, it only corrupts the religion it hopes to support, Jefferson argued.

Jefferson cared so much for the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom that he had it listed among the three life accomplishments inscribed on his tombstone, along with authoring the Declaration of Independence and founding the University of Virginia.

When Moore disparages other religions, or when all but snarls as he speaks of same-sex marriage, he spits in the eyes of those founders whose work he claims to cherish, and men like Moore were neither alien nor unimaginable to those three founders. In fact, one paragraph Jefferson wrote in the Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom could have been penned, in foresight, with officials like Moore in mind.

"[To] suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous fallacy which at once destroys all religious liberty because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own," Jefferson wrote.

Indeed, Judge Moore, let's get real.

Let's learn our history.

Let's stop playing games.

Roy Moore's twisted history: Islam and Buddhism don't have First Amendment protection, chief justice says (commentary and live chat) | AL.com (external - login to view)
 
Most helpful post: The members here have rated this post as best reply.
Tecumsehsbones
+5
#2  Top Rated Post
Just in case you wondered what the right-wingers' vision of America (and Canada) really is.
 
mentalfloss
+1
#3
Yup.

And the damage brought by systemic problems like this actually have further reach than Islamic terrorism.
 
tay
+4
#4
 
mentalfloss
#5
Has it ever been about extending rights and freedoms?
 
taxslave
No Party Affiliation
+4
#6
Giving a little power to a religious wacko is a dangerous deed. That people voted this loonytunes into office is scary.
 
Blackleaf
+1
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by TecumsehsbonesView Post

Just in case you wondered what the right-wingers' vision of America (and Canada) really is.


How many Muslims and Buddhists were there in 1791 when the First Amendment was adopted?
 
mentalfloss
+2 / -2
#8
It's a shame the U.S. hasn't become more secular.
 
Tecumsehsbones
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by BlackleafView Post

How many Muslims and Buddhists were there in 1791 when the First Amendment was adopted?

I'm sorry, Blackleaf, I didn't mean to leave you out.

Justice Moore's vision is also the vision for Britain of the BNP/UKIP.
 
taxslave
No Party Affiliation
+1
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by BlackleafView Post

How many Muslims and Buddhists were there in 1791 when the First Amendment was adopted?

How many natives were having christianity shoved up their as ses in1791?
 
Blackleaf
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by TecumsehsbonesView Post

I'm sorry, Blackleaf, I didn't mean to leave you out.

Justice Moore's vision is also the vision for Britain of the BNP/UKIP.


How many Buddhists and Muslims lived in America in 1791 when the First Amendment was adopted? Still waiting for an answer.

The thing is, you don't think of things like that, do you?

I doubt there was a thriving Islamic or Buddhist community in 18th Century America.

Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

How many natives were having christianity shoved up their as ses in1791?


How many natives in the Middle East and North Africa were having Islam shoved up their arses when that arrived in their lands?

When Hinduism arrived in India, how many Indians had that religion shoved up their arses?

You can say the same about any religion. Religions spread.
 
taxslave
No Party Affiliation
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by BlackleafView Post

How many Buddhists and Muslims lived in America in 1791 when the First Amendment was adopted? Still waiting for an answer.

The thing is, you don't think of things like that, do you?

I doubt there was a thriving Islamic or Buddhist community in 18th Century America.




How many natives in the Middle East and North Africa were having Islam shoved up their arses when that arrived in their lands?

Islam originated in the muddle east. Learn some history.
 
Tecumsehsbones
+2
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by BlackleafView Post

How many Buddhists and Muslims lived in America in 1791 when the First Amendment was adopted? Still waiting for an answer.

The thing is, you don't think of things like that, do you?

Doesn't really need an answer, because it is utterly irrelevant.

But if you insist. . . I'm not sure how many Buddhists, but a decent percentage of the slaves were Muslims.
 
Blackleaf
+1
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

Islam originated in the muddle east. Learn some history.

Islam started in what is now Saudi Arabia. But then it spread throughout the rest of the Middle East, into North Africa and even reached Spain in the 8th century when the Moors conquered it, turning the country into part of the Ummayad Caliphate. Andalusia comes from the Arabic "Al-Andalus". So when Islam spread, a lot of people had that religion shoved up their arses.

Why do the Christianophobes think it okay for Islam and other religions to spread but not Christianity?

Quote: Originally Posted by TecumsehsbonesView Post

Doesn't really need an answer, because it is utterly irrelevant.

No it isn't irrelevant.

Today just 0.7% of Americans are Buddhists and just 0.6% are Muslims (compared to 2.8% who are Muslim in Britain and 3.2% in Canada). Those religions barely have a following today in America never mind back in 1791 when the First Amendment was adopted.

The fact of the matter is that America is a Christian country, not a Buddhist or a Muslim country. It is a country founded by Christians on Christian values; a country with a strong Christian history and heritage, with half-a-million churches dotted across its landscape which are populated week in and week out by many millions of Christian worshippers (unlike Canadian Christians, American Christians remain religious and huge amounts attend church every week). America is a Christian country, and that is why Christianity is protected in the First Amendment and not any other religion.
 
taxslave
No Party Affiliation
+1
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by blackleafView Post

islam started in what is now saudi arabia. But then it spread throughout the rest of the middle east, into north africa and even reached spain in the 8th century when the moors conquered it, turning the country into part of the ummayad caliphate. Andalusia comes from the arabic "al-andalus". So when islam spread, a lot of people had that religion shoved up their arses.

Why do the christianophobes think it okay for islam and other religions to spread but not christianity?



No it isn't irrelevant.

Today just 0.7% of americans are buddhists and just 0.6% are muslims (compared to 2.8% who are muslim in britain and 3.2% in canada). Those religions barely have a following today in america never mind back in 1791 when the first amendment was adopted.

The fact of the matter is that america is a christian country, not a buddhist or a muslim country. It is a country founded by christians on christian values; a country with a strong christian history and heritage, with half-a-million churches dotted across its landscape which are populated week in and week out by many millions of christian worshippers (unlike canadian christians, american christians remain religious and huge amounts attend church every week). America is a christian country, and that is why christianity is protected in the first amendment and not any other religion.

roflmfao
 
Spade
Free Thinker
+5
#16
I have the perfect solution for our American kin. Why not have a gawd run off? Place a lead brick in front of a representative of choice of each major sect and religion. Without touching the brick which would be sealed in a tamper-proof plexiglass container, the representative would pray for a five-minute timed interval for their gawd to turn the lead into gold. If the brick turned into gold, then that sect/religion would have the right to interpret the First Amendment to their liking. Failure would mean silence and demonstrable tolerance towards others.

Of course, as Empire hangers on, we in Upper Canada and in Lower Britain would have the results apply to our peaceable domains as well.

Well...
Last edited by Spade; Jun 24th, 2014 at 08:42 AM..
 
Tecumsehsbones
+2
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by BlackleafView Post

No it isn't irrelevant.

Today just 0.7% of Americans are Buddhists and just 0.6% are Muslims (compared to 2.8% who are Muslim in Britain and 3.2% in Canada). Those religions barely have a following today in America never mind back in 1791 when the First Amendment was adopted.

The fact of the matter is that America is a Christian country, not a Buddhist or a Muslim country. It is a country founded by Christians on Christian values; a country with a strong Christian history and heritage, with half-a-million churches dotted across its landscape which are populated week in and week out by many millions of Christian worshippers (unlike Canadian Christians, American Christians remain religious and huge amounts attend church every week). America is a Christian country, and that is why Christianity is protected in the First Amendment and not any other religion.

The First Amendment says nothing at all about Christianity. It forbids establishment of religion and protects free exercise. We put that in specifically to differentiate the United States from the tyranny and oppression of the Church of England.

I say this by way of explanation. Your opinion on the U.S. Constitution ain't worth a plugged nickel.
 
Cliffy
Free Thinker
+3
#18
Every aboriginal culture in the world has a creator gawd so the first amendment applies to all ? thousands of them too. And, yes, Allah is a creator gawd. So Blackhead, you are, as usual, just displaying you ignorant bigotry.
 
gopher
No Party Affiliation
+1
#19
Obviously, Moore forgot that the equal protection clause extends rights to everyone.
 
mentalfloss
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by BlackleafView Post

How many Muslims and Buddhists were there in 1791 when the First Amendment was adopted?

https://www.google.ca/search?q=musli...&client=safari (external - login to view)

https://www.google.ca/search?q=buddhist+population (external - login to view)
 
WLDB
No Party Affiliation
+2
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

Giving a little power to a religious wacko is a dangerous deed. That people voted this loonytunes into office is scary.

Thats why I'm glad we don't elect judges. Politicizing those positions can be extremely dangerous.

Quote: Originally Posted by BlackleafView Post

I doubt there was a thriving Islamic or Buddhist community in 18th Century America.

18th century America no longer exists. 21st century America is what matters now.
 
Twila
+1
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

Has it ever been about extending rights and freedoms?

It is about controlling the masses by a select few. Always has been, always will be.
 
Serryah
Free Thinker
+3
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by BlackleafView Post

So when Islam spread, a lot of people had that religion shoved up their arses.

As opposed to Christianity being "shoved up the arses" of the pagans, including those in early Britain...

History, Blackleaf; learn some and preferably not the biased, romanticized BS of the church.
 
Cliffy
Free Thinker
+1
#24
An old native guy once said to me, White men should go back to their own religion."
I said, "Which religion is that?"
He said, "Christianity."
I said Christianity is a brown man's religion. White man's religion is the old Celtic religion, which is very similar to the aboriginal peoples religion."
He had no comeback.
 
Spade
Free Thinker
#25
Christianity is an olive religion. Thor, Woden, Tiw and so on, are redheads and freckled.

I see no one thinks their Gawd can turn lead into gold. All their gawds reached Nirvana, I guess.
 
damngrumpy
No Party Affiliation
+1
#26
The only reason the Muslims came to America was to put up a Mosque at
ground zero
 
Spade
Free Thinker
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpyView Post

The only reason the Muslims came to America was to put up a Mosque at
ground zero

And the only reasons the Boodists came was to build our railroads, do our laundry, and run restaurants ; those bastards! If we were prepared to pay living wages we would have done these jobs ourselves. We should have sent them all home after we were clean, fed, and travelling first class.

Yellow, brownish, and black Gawds are the worst. We got rid of the red Gawds in residential schools, so no worries there.
 
Tecumsehsbones
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

An old native guy once said to me, White men should go back to their own religion."
I said, "Which religion is that?"
He said, "Christianity."
I said Christianity is a brown man's religion. White man's religion is the old Celtic religion, which is very similar to the aboriginal peoples religion."
He had no comeback.

He was probably too busy backing away slowly from yet another crazy-a$$ Shemanese. We learned a long time a go that when y'all start saying stupid, obviously counter-factual things, it goes downhill really fast.
 
Blackleaf
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

roflmfao


It's time for me to start using my favourite phrase: Point out what it was that I said that was wrong.

Quote: Originally Posted by TecumsehsbonesView Post

The First Amendment says nothing at all about Christianity. It forbids establishment of religion and protects free exercise.

Buddha didn't create America, Christians did. The First Amendment applies to Christianity, not to Buddha and Mohammed. When the First Amendment was drawn up, Buddhism and Islam were not on its creator's minds. Only Christianity was.


Quote:

We put that in specifically to differentiate the United States from the tyranny and oppression of the Church of England.

Yeah, of course you did. Still, half of all Yanks remain gloriously Protestant anyway, free from the shackles of Popish tyranny.

Quote:

I say this by way of explanation. Your opinion on the U.S. Constitution ain't worth a plugged nickel.

I'm one of the few people on here talking any sense rather than talking complete and utter PC pigswill.

Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Every aboriginal culture in the world has a creator gawd

And their "creator gods" don't exist. Only the Christian god exists. There is only ONE god. The Christian god. There is no Quetzalcoatl, or Thor, or a Hindu elephant god. There is only the Christian god.

Quote:

And, yes, Allah is a creator gawd.

Only if "Allah" is the only god that actually exists - the Christian God - and not some separate fictional entity.

Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

An old native guy once said to me, White men should go back to their own religion."
I said, "Which religion is that?"
He said, "Christianity."
I said Christianity is a brown man's religion. White man's religion is the old Celtic religion, which is very similar to the aboriginal peoples religion."
He had no comeback.

He probably went down the pub telling his mates all about this weirdo that he met who thinks Christianity is "a brown man's religion" and having a right good laugh.
 
captain morgan
Bloc Québécois
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by SpadeView Post

I see no one thinks their Gawd can turn lead into gold. All their gawds reached Nirvana, I guess.

My Dearest Spade,

Lead is turned into gold on a daily basis through the miracle of opposable thumbs.... A lead pipe or tire iron across the glass of a display case is the solution you seek.

... So, where does that leave us with your grand suggestion?
 

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