Voter ID and Such

Tecumsehsbones

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Mar 18, 2013
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If anybody's interested in what's going on. . .

I'll leave the wingers to shout as much as they like.

The genesis of the whole "Voter ID" thing is the number-crunching techniques that computers make possible. Both sides are well aware that the young, the poor, and minorities tend to vote Democratic. So the parties, motivated solely by the will to win, try to find ways to either encourage their constituencies to vote, or to discourage them from voting.

Here's the brute math: If a given set of Americans votes 60-40 in favour of one party, the other party will try to discourage that set from voting, whilst the favoured party will do whatever it can to make it easier for that set to vote.

This is the key: neither party gives a damn less about voter participation, democracy, or any of those other flag-waving terms. They are out to win, just like a Wall Street banker who has figured out a way to put 100,000 people in the poorhouse, whilst making a million bucks. In his system of values, ten bucks in his pocket is worth far more than the prosperity, health, or even life of a fellow human being. The same is true of the political class: they are motivated by a win-at-all-costs values system. They would be perfectly happy to murder opposition voters if they thought they could get away with it.

So, the motivation of the Democrats is simple: maximise the opportunity of the pro-Democratic poor, young, and non-white to vote. The motivation of the Republicans is equally simple: minimise same.

For the last 20 years or so, the Democrats have dominated the scene. Flying the banner of "voting rights" and "voter participation," they passed four significant changes to the voting system, either on a national or state level. The first is "motor-voter," which requires the state's motor vehicle department to offer voter registration to every person who comes in to complete a transaction, such as acquiring or renewing driving licenses, registering newly-acquired cars, &c. The second is "same-day registration," which allows a person who has been too lazy or indifferent to register to vote, but suddenly decides to make his moronic voice heard, the opportunity to register and vote on election day, where laws previously required one to already be registered and on the voter rolls well before election day. The third is extended voting periods, where people can vote over the period of several days or even weeks, usually called "early voting." Finally, the fourth is voter-registration efforts. All of these techniques increase the participation of the young, the poor, and the non-white, who tend to vote Democratic.

Well, now the Empire is striking back. Republicans want to restrict the voting opportunities of the poor, the young, and the non-white. Sadly, they don't have a nice, crunchy, flag-waving reason like "democratic participation" to put on their banner, so they came up with "voter fraud," the notion that ineligible voters may vote. There is no evidence that such fraud has occurred (despite the Reps many attempts to take cases where a handful of non-significant errors have occurred and turn it into the Great Big Democratic Vote-Rigging Conspiracy), but the threat is real. Nonetheless, the Republicans' motivation is to restrict the voting opportunities of the groups that tend to vote Democratic.

North Carolina's law is instructive. Approximately 300,000 eligible voters in North Carolina do not possess a qualifying identity document. This group is overwhelmingly poor and non-white. More specifically, this group has a history of voting Democratic. The counties in which these people reside return Democrats, and have been more solidly Democratic since easy registration and early voting laws were passed.

So, under the rubric of preventing "voter fraud," the Republicans have required these 300,000 voters to either acquire qualifying ID, or not vote. They know full well that most of them will simply not vote. Mission accomplished.

Further instruction can be had from the fact that the North Carolina law also has several provisions restricting the ability of the young, the poor, and the non-white to vote that have nothing to do with preventing voter fraud, such as stopping registration drives that signed up high-school kids when they were 17, preparing to vote when they were 18, and shortening the early-voting period, thus disfavouring those who only get near a polling place every week or fortnight. That last is aimed specifically at the (mostly black) churches that make the rounds of isolated houses in rural areas, picking up people and taking them to the polls. Because a church van may take six hours to pick up 12 people, take them to the polls, and return them home, limiting the number of days of early voting will minimise the ability of these organisations to get people to the polls.

You may note that none of the Republicans, and certainly none of the right-wingers on this board, attempt to justify these measures in the name of "preventing voter fraud." When addressed on the issue, they merely scream louder.

And they're not wrong. Voter fraud is a legitimate problem. The Reps have the Dems on a hook. It is an article of faith to the Dems that some people are perfectly willing to destroy the country if it makes them a buck (which is true, see the Wall Street example supra). Does it not make sense then, ask the Reps, that such people would be more than happy to commit voter fraud?

The Dems are up against the simple problem that a significant portion of the population, including the groups that favour Democrats, have lousy voting records. So they do everything they can to make voting easier for those folks.

Let the Democrats and the left-wingers on this board scream as loudly as they want about the sanctity of democracy and "one person, one vote," they would not be doing this if the groups that tend to vote Democratic were not also the groups that tend not to vote.

So that's the deal. Anybody who says different is either a partisan liar, or hopelessly deluded.

I now expect the wingers to come on with their high-minded BS, snarky a-holism, and the usual crap.

Let the games begin.
 

Sal

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Sep 29, 2007
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pretty much what I thought... it's about the win... it's always about the win...like business is always about the money...follow the win in this case!! ♦

What I don't like is that it's slimy not to admit that...well slimier ... at least in business it's clear... profit (full stop) here they attempt to obfuscate and that comes from both sides of course.

And that's why I said....big surprise... because really who would trust a political party. When I vote, it's all about me... I figure out which party will do the best for me...my loyalty lasts exactly as long as my perceived benefit...then it's off to another party...I have never understood partisanship for that reason... to me partisanship = stupidity... but then I think loyalty = stupidity too.
 

SLM

The Velvet Hammer
Mar 5, 2011
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pretty much what I thought... it's about the win... it's always about the win...like business is always about the money...follow the win in this case!! ♦

What I don't like is that it's slimy not to admit that...well slimier ... at least in business it's clear... profit (full stop) here they attempt to obfuscate and that comes from both sides of course.

And that's why I said....big surprise... because really who would trust a political party. When I vote, it's all about me... I figure out which party will do the best for me...my loyalty lasts exactly as long as my perceived benefit...then it's off to another party...I have never understood partisanship for that reason... to me partisanship = stupidity... but then I think loyalty = stupidity too.

I agree with you on the first, not sure about the second though. Loyalty in and of itself isn't stupid, it entirely depends on who or what you're being loyal to in the first place. If the loyalty isn't reciprocated in some way, then yes it's stupid, but otherwise, no I don't think it is.
 

Sal

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I agree with you on the first, not sure about the second though. Loyalty in and of itself isn't stupid, it entirely depends on who or what you're being loyal to in the first place. If the loyalty isn't reciprocated in some way, then yes it's stupid, but otherwise, no I don't think it is.
dogs are loyal... you can beat them, they come back and kiss ya

I don't think of myself as loyal. I am supportive.

As for loyal, it depends entirely upon the other's behaviour and that isn't loyalty. To me loyalty is mindless support regardless. I am amazed by people who are loyal and I give them their due but I do not view it as very bright. If someone screws me over, I do not screw them over but I will never forget it and I will never trust again.

All people make mistakes because it is human but loyalty means disregarding the obvious.

Why would I? I trust those who earn it. If they spend it, then it is spent.
 

SLM

The Velvet Hammer
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dogs are loyal... you can beat them, they come back and kiss ya

I don't think of myself as loyal. I am supportive.

As for loyal, it depends entirely upon the other's behaviour and that isn't loyalty. To me loyalty is mindless support regardless. I am amazed by people who are loyal and I give them their due but I do not view it as very bright. If someone screws me over, I do not screw them over but I will never forget it and I will never trust again.

All people make mistakes because it is human but loyalty means disregarding the obvious.

Why would I? I trust those who earn it. If they spend it, then it is spent.

I would describe what you're talking about as blind loyalty, and anything blind is probably stupid because you're not really looking at the big picture.

I will be loyal to someone who's earned that loyalty. Trust, as I would define it, is much deeper and more profound. Loyalty to me just means that I'll consider someone else as well as consider myself. So I'll go to the small shop over Walmart, my whole family has always been like that. For years we bought all our televisions from a small television shop in the neighbourhood even though we could get it cheaper at a big box store, because through their good service they'd earned our loyalty.
 

Locutus

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Jun 18, 2007
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A thousand-word essay to say that "Voter fraud is a legitimate problem".

There ya have it amigos.

Anyway, I agree.
 

Sal

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Sep 29, 2007
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I would describe what you're talking about as blind loyalty, and anything blind is probably stupid because you're not really looking at the big picture.

I will be loyal to someone who's earned that loyalty. Trust, as I would define it, is much deeper and more profound. Loyalty to me just means that I'll consider someone else as well as consider myself. So I'll go to the small shop over Walmart, my whole family has always been like that. For years we bought all our televisions from a small television shop in the neighbourhood even though we could get it cheaper at a big box store, because through their good service they'd earned our loyalty.
yeah I like that.... you made a good point there... even when we do not benefit directly from an action we do for another, or even lose what society would say was valuable (money) we give because it is right... but really, they have earned it because they give equal value in another way which can not be measured...yeah I like that

I find it pathetic when I hear friends or family defend someone who has treated them really poorly by saying 'well that is just the way they are' but you know they have pulled the same stunts over and over... and they excuse it. Now I can admire when someone says, yes they treated me like crap but I understand why and then they don't allow that to happen again.

that is admirable...but loyalty that reinforces bad behaviour is pathetic

A thousand-word essay to say that "Voter fraud is a legitimate problem".

There ya have it amigos.

Anyway, I agree.
then why are people defending it... being blind to it and pretending it isn't just about votes...why not say, yeah, my party would screw the pooch for a vote...why pretend it is on the up and up...I don't get that?
 

SLM

The Velvet Hammer
Mar 5, 2011
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I find it pathetic when I hear friends or family defend someone who has treated them really poorly by saying 'well that is just the way they are' but you know they have pulled the same stunts over and over... and they excuse it.

See loyalty is the last thing that comes to my mind in situations like that. That's denial, enabling, avoidance, etc, etc. Lol.

What I find the most interesting here is that, while we don't necessarily define the word really all that differently, we each have such different emphasis and connotations for the same word. When I step back a little, that's kind of a bit of an eye opener on maybe how and why some people have such a hard time communicating with each other.
 

Locutus

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Jun 18, 2007
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I'm not at all surprised that's all you got from it.

Don't be mad son...it's just a little criticism is all. You're a bit um...'wordy'. That's all. You'll get over it.

Besides, I agreed your fraud thing was a bonifide problem.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Don't be mad son...it's just a little criticism is all. You're a bit um...'wordy'. That's all. You'll get over it.

Besides, I agreed your fraud thing was a bonifide problem.

Not mad, amused at your reading comp skills.

Actually, voter fraud is not a bona fide problem, but the potential is there.
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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Don't be mad son...it's just a little criticism is all. You're a bit um...'wordy'. That's all. You'll get over it.

Besides, I agreed your fraud thing was a bonifide problem.

Targeting specific groups based upon color, income, lack of residency as in a home -apartment - ability to vote is an attack on the basic right -building block of democracy- The Right to Vote.

As to fraudulent voting- compare the numbers to those that are deliberately targeted so they cannot or must cross hurdles to vote.
 

damngrumpy

Executive Branch Member
Mar 16, 2005
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As soon as you make a law two people will figure out a way to get around it.
Yes there is time to bypass the law and that will happen.
The worst of all this is whichever side is on the short end will eventually
come to power and they will come up with a plan to be even worse.
It should also be a given that the people voting in an election are citizens
of the country or the State or the municipality.
 

Sal

Hall of Fame Member
Sep 29, 2007
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See loyalty is the last thing that comes to my mind in situations like that. That's denial, enabling, avoidance, etc, etc. Lol.

What I find the most interesting here is that, while we don't necessarily define the word really all that differently, we each have such different emphasis and connotations for the same word. When I step back a little, that's kind of a bit of an eye opener on maybe how and why some people have such a hard time communicating with each other.
lol.... yes...you make another good point

I just decided one day, loyalty creates huge problems because it is blind...always

I view partisanship as needing loyalty...therefore partisanship is dishonest... they are loyal to the party even when the party screws people out of human rights...that is wrong...they know that is wrong and they can not support "wrong" so instead of seeing "wrong" they find ways to circumvent the truth and make it right...that way conscience is clear, my party is right and you are just fuking stupid if you cannot see that. Huh? I am stupid if I don't think like you? But apparently so.

And that is so neanderthal. How can one support something they clearly know in their heart is wrong.

I get people who say, I don't fuking care. This works for me, too bad for you. My boss used to say about money: better in my pocket than yours. If he could screw you out of a penny he would. When I would negotiate big deals for the company we would place monetary bets on whether or not he could negotiate a better deal than me. He would play dirty and in good fun but it taught me a lesson. I trusted him because he would screw me three ways to Sunday to win. That is predictable and honest. Obfuscation? Why?

To obfuscate and try to make it right...that is slimy...and I think loyalty leads to slimy...:lol:
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Mar 18, 2013
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lol.... yes...you make another good point

I just decided one day, loyalty creates huge problems because it is blind...always

I view partisanship as needing loyalty...therefore partisanship is dishonest... they are loyal to the party even when the party screws people out of human rights...that is wrong...they know that is wrong and they can not support "wrong" so instead of seeing "wrong" they find ways to circumvent the truth and make it right...that way conscience is clear, my party is right and you are just fuking stupid if you cannot see that. Huh? I am stupid if I don't think like you? But apparently so.

And that is so neanderthal. How can one support something they clearly know in their heart is wrong.

I get people who say, I don't fuking care. This works for me, too bad for you. My boss used to say about money: better in my pocket than yours. If he could screw you out of a penny he would. When I would negotiate big deals for the company we would place monetary bets on whether or not he could negotiate a better deal than me. He would play dirty and in good fun but it taught me a lesson. I trusted him because he would screw me three ways to Sunday to win. That is predictable and honest. Obfuscation? Why?

To obfuscate and try to make it right...that is slimy...and I think loyalty leads to slimy...:lol:

“Patriotism is a word; and one that generally comes to mean either my country, right or wrong, which is infamous, or my country is always right, which is imbecile.”

― Patrick O'Brian, Master and Commander