Michigan right to work legislation passed, but is it legal?

PoliticalNick

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Mar 8, 2011
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't 'right to work' legislation allow union workers to stay at work if they choose in the event of a strike. I'm not sure how this is a bad thing. If you don't agree with a strike or union position you should have the right to continue working and getting paid.
 

Highball

Council Member
Jan 28, 2010
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The Rights of the People are expressed at the Ballot box. If the elections were held and conducted legally then the people have spoken. I hope we still are a "majority Rule concept? Everyone should be able to enjoy the "Free Choice" status we are guaranteed by our Bill of Rights.
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't 'right to work' legislation allow union workers to stay at work if they choose in the event of a strike. I'm not sure how this is a bad thing. If you don't agree with a strike or union position you should have the right to continue working and getting paid.

This may have changed recently (as in the last couple of weeks), but in
Saskatchewan, the Union would have fined the worker who crossed
the picket line to work in an amount equal to or exceeding the wages
she/he would have gotten paid for crossing that picket line.

For example: http://www.leaderpost.com/business/labour+laws+details+revealed/7563860/story.html

....New laws will also strike down a union's power to impose fines on
workers who cross picket lines during strikes, Morgan said.

At present, a union can take money off workers' paycheques if the
union passes a motion to penalize the worker.

"We're going to get rid of that system completely," he said.

While the government will continue to recognize a union's right to
discipline its members, Morgan said, fines shouldn't be automatic
and workers should be able to contest them.

"They can go to civil court," he said.


 
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The Old Medic

Council Member
May 16, 2010
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Right to Work laws give workers the option of joining a Union or not, of paying Union dues or not, and prohibits any contract that requires that all employees of any employer MUST be Union members.

Unions could NOT fine anyone, for anything that they do. The Union is free to bargain, but any benefits that they gain go to all employees, not just Union members.

No Union can force anyone to join it, and they can not collect dues from anyone that refuses to pay them.

I am 100% behind this kind of legislation.
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
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Cool. My post above yours was just pointing out that Saskatchewan is (or at least
was) different where the Unions could (& did) fine employees for crossing picket
lines, & this was enforced for the Unions by the court system.
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
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Right to Work laws give workers the option of joining a Union or not, of paying Union dues or not, and prohibits any contract that requires that all employees of any employer MUST be Union members.

Workers in Canada already have the option to join a union or not and paying union dues, or not. However, the equivilant of union dues is deducted and can be directed to a registered charity. We have several non union workers doing this.


Unions could NOT fine anyone, for anything that they do. The Union is free to bargain, but any benefits that they gain go to all employees, not just Union members.

As it is, a union can only fine its members. We had this happen many years ago, the members had a choice; pay the fine and remain members, or not, and redirect your dues to a charity. As per Justice Rand's ruling, non members recieve the same benefits and protections covered in any collective agreement as members do. They simply can't vote, hold elected office, or enroll in union sponsored group benefits.

No Union can force anyone to join it, and they can not collect dues from anyone that refuses to pay them.

I am 100% behind this kind of legislation.

As I said, this is already the case here, unless you favour non union members getting all the benefits of union membership for free. I fail to see how that could even be remotely considered fair in any parallel universe.
 

Ron in Regina

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Bob, I'm assuming you're referring specifically to British Columbia? Very different
rules in different jurisdictions, and that might explain some of the very different
opinions we're seeing in this Thread. Some, but not all, by any means.

Myself, I'm not anti-union, I'm anti-bully. My issue as I'd tried to point out earlier in
this Thread is that in many situations, the unions have stopped being the advocate
of the little guys being stepped on, but have evolved to actively stepping on others.

Sometimes it's bully tactics of bullying non-union members, and sometimes it's bully
tactics of bullying some of its own members. If this didn't happen, I doubt very much
that we'd see much, if any, dissenting opinions towards unions and union activities.

Unions have done many good things to benefit more than it's own members over
time, and that's great. They've also openly & blatantly shat upon others and don't
seem to be able to realize that not everyone is going to be thankful of past deeds
when you've become the thing you where created to combat.

Unions can still do good things, & for more than just their members, but they've got
to step back and look at the whole picture, from the outside looking in, and not
just from one side, to realize why the negative opinions exist when they're
actively shooting themselves in their own feet by being thugs to others on the
picket lines, etc....as if you're out'a your own home today & doing something
untowards, you have to assume that the potential exists for the world to see
and dissect it.

Being a abusive group to some trucker who's just driven across the continent
to the gateway of a plant with a pack of strikers on the roadway doesn't help their
cause. The trucker isn't there to build the widgets that the union workers do...He
(or she) just needs to drop their load and get the hell out'a Dodge. Same with
couriers, etc...and the example pages back of a private citizen try'n to pick up
their bills at the post office, during a strike, 'cuz they still need to be paid.

Bad P.R. like the few examples above are a choice, and if that choice is made,
there will be negative reaction to them.
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
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Postal Strikes. They really Piss me off. Many years ago when I was a contractor in smalltown The post office workers(?) had one of their many strikes. Being smalltown we didn't have mail delivery but PO boxes at the post office. Since ((% of my business is paid by cheques if I want to pay my bills and payroll I must get the mail. One of the postal workers(?) told me I shouldn't cross their picket line because my wife worked for the school board. I told her that her right to strike ended when it interfered with my and my employees right to earn a living and if I was to meet payroll that week I needed to get my mail.
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
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Bob, I'm assuming you're referring specifically to British Columbia? Very different
rules in different jurisdictions, and that might explain some of the very different
opinions we're seeing in this Thread. Some, but not all, by any means.

I was referring to the union I belong to and my experience therein; we operate under federal rules so it doesn't matter which jurisdiction we are in, we have to obey all the laws in all provinces because our membership spans the entire country and one CA covers all, not each local individually. Our union HQ just outside Washington DC, so we also deal with US laws.

In any case, the Rand formula is Canada wide, and I'm not sure if "closed shops" are even legal here, i.e. you have to be a union member to hold employment, (I've been out of the executive for quite some time after being in it for far too long).

Our association considers itself as a professional organization, but it is still a labour union because we are licensed and policed by the federal government by law, unlike doctors, lawyers and other professions which license, police, and can levy sanctions against their members.

Bullying still goes on, as it does with the College of Physicians and Surgeons, Barristers Societies, and other professional associations. You can't avoid it.

I see the tactics used by labour unions, and some of them make my head spin, but in the end it is not our business. The members are the ones with the power to change things. And when there is a labour dispute, it is between management and the workers, period. Everyone else, unless they are a stakeholder, are merely spectators. Inconvenienced or not, it is still not our business. I know quite well the PR game, and have been educated in the art of "spin", (we pay trained spin doctors, so we don't even try to do this at home), and it is a game. Unfortunately, some labour unions have lost touch with their grass roots, but time has a way of making things right.
 

Liberalman

Senate Member
Mar 18, 2007
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't 'right to work' legislation allow union workers to stay at work if they choose in the event of a strike. I'm not sure how this is a bad thing. If you don't agree with a strike or union position you should have the right to continue working and getting paid.

Strikes are the only way a union forces a company to give into their demands of fair pay and a safe work environment.

Paying lower wages produces a lower quality product or service.

To keep competent workers in this shrinking work force companies have to pay more for labour just to keep their heads above water.

Our government is bringing in slave labour from foreign countries that are putting our lives at risk like the meat packing fiasco of western Canada

Since tariffs are disappearing and cheap products are flooding our domestic markets from other countries, safety of the consumers is not a high priority of companies and the governments we elect to keep us safe.

The global economy was a good idea in the beginning but has harmed more than helped this country to grow and now it is time to stop this exercise and start to rebuild our manufacturing base.

A better solution is make all employees essential workers which means no strikes and let an arbitrator make the final decision on a contract, if one looks at emergency workers who do not have a right to strike they made good gains over the years.
.
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
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Mountain Veiw County
Strikes are the only way a union forces a company to give into their demands of fair pay and a safe work environment.

Paying lower wages produces a lower quality product or service.

To keep competent workers in this shrinking work force companies have to pay more for labour just to keep their heads above water.

Our government is bringing in slave labour from foreign countries that are putting our lives at risk like the meat packing fiasco of western Canada

Since tariffs are disappearing and cheap products are flooding our domestic markets from other countries, safety of the consumers is not a high priority of companies and the governments we elect to keep us safe.

The global economy was a good idea in the beginning but has harmed more than helped this country to grow and now it is time to stop this exercise and start to rebuild our manufacturing base.


Pretty much everything you say here is fundamentally correct. Unions have the strenght to hold employers' feet to the fire where the government moves at a snail's pace, at least as far as occupational safety and health go. As well, supply and demand drive wages and working conditions. It is unfortunate that becouse of our high cost of production jobs are outsourced to foreign countries, but it is quite rare that we have factory fires with a total loss, and even more rare that one will wipe out 80% of the workers. Without unions, we would look much like Bangladesh. Union demands are only a part of our high costs, but the human cost could be much higher.

A better solution is make all employees essential workers which means no strikes and let an arbitrator make the final decision on a contract, if one looks at emergency workers who do not have a right to strike they made good gains over the years.



However, this last statement leaves me scratching my head; Lisa Raitt has either threatened or tabled back to work legislation to end or avoid a strike, kneecapping the unions involved. Without the right to self help, i.e. suspension of service, unions are at the mercy of the employer. As far as letting an arbitrator settle disputes, that is a crap shoot. The arbitrator who ruled on the Air Canada pilots' dispute set aviation back 50 years, they are no better off now than after the 2nd world war, where there was a glut of experienced pilots.

 

tay

Hall of Fame Member
May 20, 2012
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Right to Work laws give workers the option of joining a Union or not, of paying Union dues or not, and prohibits any contract that requires that all employees of any employer MUST be Union members.

Unions could NOT fine anyone, for anything that they do. The Union is free to bargain, but any benefits that they gain go to all employees, not just Union members.

No Union can force anyone to join it, and they can not collect dues from anyone that refuses to pay them.

I am 100% behind this kind of legislation.












But would the Unions be required to represent these freeloaders in legal disputes?

Let's say a low level supervisor dosen't like a particular employee for whatever reason and decides to suspend or fire that person for something that the Collective Agreement states is not a disciplinary reason.

Would the Union be required to support the freeloader?



While Michigan's momentous decision has received widespread media attention, little has been said about the origins of "right-to-work" laws, which find their roots in extreme pro-segregationist and anti-communist elements in the 1940s South.

The history of anti-labor "right-to-work" laws starts in Houston. It was there in 1936 that Vance Muse, an oil industry lobbyist, founded the Christian American Association with backing from Southern oil companies and industrialists from the Northeast.

Muse was a fixture in far-right politics in the South before settling into his anti-labor crusade


more

The racist roots of 'right to work' laws
 

PoliticalNick

The Troll Bashing Troll
Mar 8, 2011
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Workers in Canada already have the option to join a union or not and paying union dues, or not. However, the equivilant of union dues is deducted and can be directed to a registered charity. We have several non union workers doing this.
It is nice there is an option to not be part of the union. I have always said I prefer to negotiate my salary based upon my skills and work ethic rather than a bunch of lazy a$$ morons who hold an organization hostage. I do question why the mandatory deduction to charity though. I already give a substantial amount to charities throughout the year and who the f*ck are the union idiots forcing me to give a set amount? Personally I think unions are a waste of time these days with the labor laws we have in place.
As it is, a union can only fine its members. We had this happen many years ago, the members had a choice; pay the fine and remain members, or not, and redirect your dues to a charity. As per Justice Rand's ruling, non members recieve the same benefits and protections covered in any collective agreement as members do. They simply can't vote, hold elected office, or enroll in union sponsored group benefits.
I don't need a collective agreement. I have never had a problem negotiating a reasonable package based solely on my own. If you are unable to do this you can always look for another employer who will pay you what you're worth. Unless you aren't worth much.
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
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I was referring to the union I belong to and my experience therein; we operate under federal rules so it doesn't matter which jurisdiction we are in, we have to obey all the laws in all provinces because our membership spans the entire country and one CA covers all, not each local individually. Our union HQ just outside Washington DC, so we also deal with US laws.

In any case, the Rand formula is Canada wide, and I'm not sure if "closed shops" are even legal here, i.e. you have to be a union member to hold employment, (I've been out of the executive for quite some time after being in it for far too long).

Our association considers itself as a professional organization, but it is still a labour union because we are licensed and policed by the federal government by law, unlike doctors, lawyers and other professions which license, police, and can levy sanctions against their members.

Bullying still goes on, as it does with the College of Physicians and Surgeons, Barristers Societies, and other professional associations. You can't avoid it.

I see the tactics used by labour unions, and some of them make my head spin, but in the end it is not our business. The members are the ones with the power to change things. And when there is a labour dispute, it is between management and the workers, period. Everyone else, unless they are a stakeholder, are merely spectators. Inconvenienced or not, it is still not our business. I know quite well the PR game, and have been educated in the art of "spin", (we pay trained spin doctors, so we don't even try to do this at home), and it is a game. Unfortunately, some labour unions have lost touch with their grass roots, but time has a way of making things right.

Most union construction trades is closed shop with the exception of those belonging to CLAC.
 

TeddyBallgame

Time Out
Mar 30, 2012
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- As he so often does, award winning political columnist Charles Krauthammer puts this political issue in its proper historical and economic context.

- As for the ridiculous notion that the bloody Civil Service Commission of Michigan can overide the will of the elected government of the people of Michigan, that notion os so obviously contrived and ridiculous that I shall not dignify it with any firther comment.

Charles Krauthammer: The right-to-work dilemma

Dec 14, 2012 10:12 AM ET | Last Updated: Dec 14, 2012 10:13 AM ET

For all the fury and fistfights outside the Lansing Capitol, what happened in Michigan this week was a simple accommodation to reality. The most famously unionized state, birthplace of the United Auto Workers, royalty of the American working class, became right-to-work.

It’s shocking, except that it was inevitable. Indiana went that way earlier this year. The entire Rust Belt will eventually follow because the heyday of the sovereign private-sector union is gone. Globalization has made splendid isolation impossible.

The nostalgics look back to the immediate postwar years when the UAW was all-powerful, the auto companies were highly profitable and the world was flooded with American cars. In that Golden Age, the UAW won wages, benefits and protections that were the envy of the world.

Today’s angry protesters demand a return to that norm. Except that it was not a norm but a historical anomaly. America, alone among the great industrial powers, emerged unscathed from World War II. Japan was a cinder, Germany rubble, and the allies — beginning with Britain and France — an exhausted shell of their former imperial selves.

For a generation, America had the run of the world. Then the others recovered. Soon global competition — from Volkswagen to Samsung — began to overtake American industry that was saddled with protected, inflated, relatively uncompetitive wages, benefits and work rules.

There’s a reason Detroit went bankrupt while the southern auto transplants did not. This is not to exonerate incompetent overpaid management that contributed to the fall. But clearly the wage, benefit and work-rule gap between the unionized North and the right-to-work South was a major factor.

President Obama railed against the Michigan legislation, calling right-to-work “giving you the right to work for less money.” Well, there is a principle at stake here: A free country should allow its workers to choose whether or not to join a union. Moreover, it is more than slightly ironic that Democrats, the fiercely pro-choice party, reserve free choice for aborting a fetus, while denying it for such matters as choosing your child’s school or joining a union.

Principle and hypocrisy aside, however, the president’s statement has some validity. Let’s be honest: Right-to-work laws do weaken unions. And de-unionization can lead to lower wages.

But there is another factor at play: having a job in the first place. In right-to-work states, the average wage is about 10 percent lower. But in right-to-work states, unemployment also is about 10 percent lower.

Higher wages or lower unemployment? It is a wrenching choice. Although, you would think that liberals would be more inclined to spread the wealth — i.e., the jobs — around, preferring somewhat lower pay in order to leave fewer fellow workers mired in unemployment.

Think of the moral calculus. Lower wages cause an incremental decline in one’s well-being. No doubt. But for the unemployed, the decline is categorical, sometimes catastrophic — a loss not just of income but of independence and dignity.

Nor does protectionism offer escape from this dilemma. Shutting out China and the others deprives less well-off Americans of access to the kinds of goods once reserved for the upper classes: quality clothing, furnishings, electronics, durable goods — from the Taiwanese-manufactured smartphone to the affordable, highly functional Kia.

Globalization taketh away. But it giveth more. The net benefit of free trade has been known since, oh, 1817. (See David Ricardo and the Law of Comparative Advantage.) There is no easy parachute from reality.

Obama calls this a race to the bottom. No, it’s a race to a new equilibrium that tries to maintain employment levels, albeit at the price of some modest wage decline. It is a choice not to be despised.

I have great admiration for the dignity and protections trade unionism has brought to American workers. I have no great desire to see the private-sector unions defenestrated. (Like FDR, Fiorello La Guardia and George Meany, however, I don’t extend that sympathy to public-sector unions.)

But rigidity and nostalgia have a price. The industrial Midwest is littered with the resulting wreckage. Michigan most notably, where its formerly great metropolis of Detroit is reduced to boarded-up bankruptcy by its inability and unwillingness to adapt to global change.

It’s easy to understand why a state such as Michigan would seek to recover its competitiveness by emulating the success of neighboring Indiana. One can sympathize with those who pine for the union glory days, while at the same time welcoming the new realism that promises not an impossible restoration, but desperately needed — and doable — recalibration and recovery
 

no color

Electoral Member
May 20, 2007
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Right to Work laws give workers the option of joining a Union or not, of paying Union dues or not, and prohibits any contract that requires that all employees of any employer MUST be Union members.

Unions could NOT fine anyone, for anything that they do. The Union is free to bargain, but any benefits that they gain go to all employees, not just Union members.

No Union can force anyone to join it, and they can not collect dues from anyone that refuses to pay them.

I am 100% behind this kind of legislation.










Right on! In a free society, workers should be free to choose where they want to work without being forced to join any union against their will.
 

tay

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May 20, 2012
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Maybe we shouldn't ask if the 'right to work laws' are legal but are they moral.............?




Let's begin by getting something straight about Michigan's new anti-union law: It isn't properly described as "right to work" legislation. That phrase is, of course, widely used Republican shorthand for "right to work without being obliged to pay dues to the represented employees whose union bargained wages and benefits on your behalf."

But if the Michigan law, like so many similar laws in other, mostly southern states, was truly about "right to work," then the following clearly would have to be true:

You're a high school or college grad who hasn't found a job, or a middle-aged citizen who has worked steadily for decades, but has lately been laid off and can't find a new job. For you and many other Americans who are out of work, a true "right to work" law would, by the meaning of that phrase, strongly suggest that you're guaranteed a job. You have a "right to work," yes? Doesn't that imply a guarantee? A compact with government, even? Sure would be a good thing, if that phrase was anything more than willfully misleading, bait-and-switch politics.

A well-written and truly "right to work" law would oblige employers -- perhaps with public subsidy, in some cases -- to pay family-supporting wages, not the ridiculously low, mini-wage jobs that mainly serve to drive laborers into debt, bankruptcy and despair, at a huge social cost to this country.

The theme: Shut up and get to work, if you're lucky enough to have a job. We, the bosses, will make all decisions about your wages and benefits. There is no job security and little retirement security. Your pension is not only not portable, but we reserve the (ahem!) right to use legal loopholes to raid your pension retirement fund and spend the cash on other purposes, such as executive bonuses, like the bosses at Hostess did to their represented workers.

In short: Be afraid, and keep your nose to the grindstone. And remember: If you don't have a job in this country, you're nothing.


"Right to work" laws merely allow the possibility of work, and then mostly only work for authoritarian *******s who have little if any regard for your needs or well-being, only their own bottom line. Which is why labor unions formed in the first place.


At work, laboring Americans have the unwelcome right to serve in increasingly third-world conditions for unkind, anti-labor jerks.

These laborers have the decreasing right to assert their needs as human beings who have legitimate yet declining expectations about earning a fair wage.

If you lose your job, you're pretty much on your own, because the cultural implication or stated rationale is that it was mostly or all your own fault -- although it could be, go the whispers and sometimes shouts, the fault of unseen and mostly only suspected forces, like illegal immigrants or minorities.


George Lakoff on Michigan's New Corporate Servitude Law:


George Lakoff: Michigan's New Corporate Servitude Law: It Takes Away Worker Rights








We've seen the memo before.......................




 

captain morgan

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Mar 28, 2009
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Maybe we shouldn't ask if the 'right to work laws' are legal but are they moral.............?

Extremely moral, particularly for those that don't want to be part of a union

You have a "right to work," yes? Doesn't that imply a guarantee? A compact with government, even?

You do have a right to work - now it's your responsibility to take advantage of it.

A well-written and truly "right to work" law would oblige employers -- perhaps with public subsidy, in some cases -- to pay family-supporting wages, not the ridiculously low, mini-wage jobs that mainly serve to drive laborers into debt, bankruptcy and despair, at a huge social cost to this country.

Don't like the subsidy? Then get rid of them... The employers can take advantage of their 'right to move the company'

Don't like crappy wages? Work to angle your skills into a direction that will provide access to better wages.

The theme: Shut up and get to work, if you're lucky enough to have a job. We, the bosses, will make all decisions about your wages and benefits. There is no job security and little retirement security.

The market determines the level of wages/bennies.

The only job security rests entirely in the individual to provide value to the company that will want/need to access your services

In short: Be afraid, and keep your nose to the grindstone. And remember: If you don't have a job in this country, you're nothing.

Not true, in the US, if you don't have employment, you can make more after-tax money on welfare and food stamps... Ironically, the money comes from the private sector to fund these programs


"Right to work" laws merely allow the possibility of work, and then mostly only work for authoritarian *******s who have little if any regard for your needs or well-being, only their own bottom line. Which is why labor unions formed in the first place.

Guarantee your work and productivity and you'll likely see a guaranteed job

At work, laboring Americans have the unwelcome right to serve in increasingly third-world conditions for unkind, anti-labor jerks.

... And the award for best over dramatization and theatrical performance goes too....

These laborers have the decreasing right to assert their needs as human beings who have legitimate yet declining expectations about earning a fair wage.

What about the increasing 'needs as human beings' of the labor force in China and India? I'll bet that they don't have a welfare/food stamp program to fall back on.