" Assassinating Americans "legal & Constitutional."

Ocean Breeze

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 5, 2005
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Holder: Assassinating Americans ‘Legal and Constitutional’

Insists President's Decision to Assassinate Is 'Due Process'



Holder: Assassinating Americans ‘Legal and Constitutional’ -- News from Antiwar.com

No real surprise. He is just trying to make "legal" and "acceptable" what has been happening already. Things are devolving into something we might not even recognize in due time. Heck....it is hard to recognize what that nation is now.

Wonder if the US population is so bogged down with fiscal problems and other problems of survival (natural disasters included ) to be fully aware of these changes taking place with the powers that be.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
Here is how they determine if you can be assassinated.

(in part)
HR437, "the Federal Restricted Buildings and Grounds Improvement Act of 2011" makes it illegal to protest in the vicinity of anyone who rates a Secret Service detail (even if you aren't aware of the person's presence), thus sparing politicians and VIPs the ugly and unseemly spectacle of having to confront voters who disagree with their policies. Only three Congressmen voted against it.
On top of that, the punishment can be pretty severe. You can get up to a year in jail for being found guilty of these things, and that jumps up to 10 years if you are carrying a "deadly or dangerous weapon."

Proposed US law bans protesting near anyone who rates a Secret Service detail - Boing Boing
 

Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
24,691
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[/B]


Holder: Assassinating Americans ‘Legal and Constitutional’ -- News from Antiwar.com

No real surprise. He is just trying to make "legal" and "acceptable" what has been happening already. Things are devolving into something we might not even recognize in due time. Heck....it is hard to recognize what that nation is now.

Wonder if the US population is so bogged down with fiscal problems and other problems of survival (natural disasters included ) to be fully aware of these changes taking place with the powers that be.


When you plan attacks against your own country - does citizenship prevent you from being targeted and killed. No - A threat is a threat.

He was a threat - Past tense intended.

Targeted killings: Traitors like al-Awlaki deserve what they get | Full Comment | National Post

The poster child for this debate is Anwar al-Awlaki, an American-born al-Qaeda recruiter who was linked to several attempted, but failed, attacks against the U.S. homeland. In 2011, an American drone hunted down al-Awlaki and his entourage in Yemen, and wiped them out with a missile. This led to much controversy, particularly among civil libertarians, who argued that al-Awklaki had been executed by his government without due process of law, including a fair trial and appeals process.

This argument does not hold up to scrutiny, however. Al-Awlaki was not a prisoner facing trial, he was an enemy soldier killed in a military operation. It is true that he was specifically sought out and targeted for that mission, but high-value leadership targets have always been fair-game in war, and through his actions, al-Awlaki had made himself a very high-value target indeed. Fluent in English and technologically savvy, the so-called “YouTube bin Laden” had proven a potent propagandist, spreading al-Qaeda’s message and recruiting among disaffected Westerners, ripe for conversion into home-grown al-Qaeda fanatics. al-Awlaki was not simply another al-Qaeda insurgent or Taliban rifleman, but a potent weapon in their arsenal, and as a member of al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, was a direct military threat to the pro-Western government of Yemen.

All of this would have been true regardless of his citizenship. It was al-Awlaki’s actions, not his place of birth, that required a firm response. It should also be noted that the U.S. is not specifically seeking out and eliminating every American citizen that allies with states or organizations hostile to American interests. Only those who are high-value targets on their own merits are specifically sought out and eliminated with these drone strikes, as is entirely appropriate. If the U.S. was seeking out every traitorous citizen, there would be a stronger legal argument to be made for calling such actions extrajudicial executions. Given that al-Awlaki was a willing member of an enemy military unit engaged in acts of war against America and its allies, his death is more properly viewed as a battle casualty incurred during a successful operation.

Throughout history, there have been turncoats and traitors who have sided against their country by fighting alongside its enemies. When taken alive, they have sometimes been dealt with harshly, absent of any judicial oversight. That is not necessary in our modern era. But nor should the U.S. military holds its fire when an enemy leader is in its sights, because a member of their party, or perhaps the leader itself, happens to have been born American. American citizenship must not become a shield for those who wage war on America to hide behind.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
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Ottawa, ON
[/B]


Holder: Assassinating Americans ‘Legal and Constitutional’ -- News from Antiwar.com

No real surprise. He is just trying to make "legal" and "acceptable" what has been happening already. Things are devolving into something we might not even recognize in due time. Heck....it is hard to recognize what that nation is now.

Wonder if the US population is so bogged down with fiscal problems and other problems of survival (natural disasters included ) to be fully aware of these changes taking place with the powers that be.

B.. b... but what if you take him to court and find out he was actually innocent? First off it costs the court lots of money, and secondly there is always the risk that a guilty party might be found innocent owing to lack of evidence.

Consider the innocent victims collateral damage; at sure at least some of the assassination victims were truly guilty, right?
 

Serryah

Executive Branch Member
Dec 3, 2008
8,973
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Change his place of birth to say, Afghanistan. Then the US would be celebrating another "Darkie" dead by their hands.

Or, if he had planned attacks, and they succeeded, would the US public want to see him go to trial, or die a fiery death like he'd put their relatives through?

This guy severed his ties to his country when he joined al Qaeda and the US dealt with him properly, end of story.
 

Highball

Council Member
Jan 28, 2010
1,170
1
38
If this citizen was found guilty in a US Federal Court for Treason (Federal Crime) he'd be ordered executed by a "Firing Squad." There is no doubt he was ordering the killing of US citizens and also descecrating the US Flag. It is still commonplace in the US military. If the young Army member accused of releasing the documnets to Wiki Leaks does get found guilty of Treason , the sentence will be to face a Firing Squad. He too will look like a chunk of Swiss Cheese before burial. There are other US citizens in foreign land that are on a US Black Ops hit list too.
 

PoliticalNick

The Troll Bashing Troll
Mar 8, 2011
7,940
0
36
Edson, AB
If this citizen was found guilty in a US Federal Court for Treason (Federal Crime) he'd be ordered executed by a "Firing Squad." There is no doubt he was ordering the killing of US citizens and also descecrating the US Flag. It is still commonplace in the US military. If the young Army member accused of releasing the documnets to Wiki Leaks does get found guilty of Treason , the sentence will be to face a Firing Squad. He too will look like a chunk of Swiss Cheese before burial. There are other US citizens in foreign land that are on a US Black Ops hit list too.

I didn't realize desecrating the flag was a terrorist act punishable by death. I better stop those Saturday night flag burning parties eh!

The part of this that really makes me sick is that, as usual, there is a huge double standard. If anyone else assassinated o.e of there own for working with the US there would be a huge outcry from the govt and public about how wrong and evil it was. The American govt is nothing but a bunch of power hungry hypocrites.
 

Niflmir

A modern nomad
Dec 18, 2006
3,460
58
48
Leiden, the Netherlands
When you plan attacks against your own country - does citizenship prevent you from being targeted and killed. No - A threat is a threat.

He was a threat - Past tense intended.

Targeted killings: Traitors like al-Awlaki deserve what they get | Full Comment | National Post

The poster child for this debate is Anwar al-Awlaki, an American-born al-Qaeda recruiter who was linked to several attempted, but failed, attacks against the U.S. homeland. In 2011, an American drone hunted down al-Awlaki and his entourage in Yemen, and wiped them out with a missile. This led to much controversy, particularly among civil libertarians, who argued that al-Awklaki had been executed by his government without due process of law, including a fair trial and appeals process.

This argument does not hold up to scrutiny, however. Al-Awlaki was not a prisoner facing trial, he was an enemy soldier killed in a military operation. It is true that he was specifically sought out and targeted for that mission, but high-value leadership targets have always been fair-game in war, and through his actions, al-Awlaki had made himself a very high-value target indeed. Fluent in English and technologically savvy, the so-called “YouTube bin Laden” had proven a potent propagandist, spreading al-Qaeda’s message and recruiting among disaffected Westerners, ripe for conversion into home-grown al-Qaeda fanatics. al-Awlaki was not simply another al-Qaeda insurgent or Taliban rifleman, but a potent weapon in their arsenal, and as a member of al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, was a direct military threat to the pro-Western government of Yemen.

All of this would have been true regardless of his citizenship. It was al-Awlaki’s actions, not his place of birth, that required a firm response. It should also be noted that the U.S. is not specifically seeking out and eliminating every American citizen that allies with states or organizations hostile to American interests. Only those who are high-value targets on their own merits are specifically sought out and eliminated with these drone strikes, as is entirely appropriate. If the U.S. was seeking out every traitorous citizen, there would be a stronger legal argument to be made for calling such actions extrajudicial executions. Given that al-Awlaki was a willing member of an enemy military unit engaged in acts of war against America and its allies, his death is more properly viewed as a battle casualty incurred during a successful operation.

Throughout history, there have been turncoats and traitors who have sided against their country by fighting alongside its enemies. When taken alive, they have sometimes been dealt with harshly, absent of any judicial oversight. That is not necessary in our modern era. But nor should the U.S. military holds its fire when an enemy leader is in its sights, because a member of their party, or perhaps the leader itself, happens to have been born American. American citizenship must not become a shield for those who wage war on America to hide behind.

That is all fine and good except for the fact that al-Awlaki was not a soldier, was not a member of Al Qaeda, the US is not at war with Yemen, and al-Awlaki was merely a propagandist.

Or did evidence actually exist that the government could have presented when al-Awlaki's father went to court to try to stop the government from assassinating his son? There is no such evidence, and the government certainly had the opportunity to present it.

Face it, the US government killed someone because they did not like the things he was saying.
 

Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
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That is all fine and good except for the fact that al-Awlaki was not a soldier, was not a member of Al Qaeda, the US is not at war with Yemen, and al-Awlaki was merely a propagandist.

Or did evidence actually exist that the government could have presented when al-Awlaki's father went to court to try to stop the government from assassinating his son? There is no such evidence, and the government certainly had the opportunity to present it.

Face it, the US government killed someone because they did not like the things he was saying.

The court turned the father down. Why?
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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If I understand the change, the US President can legally order assassinations and justify it as a security issue. Sooner or later this power will be used by a US President to eliminate opposition. Sounds like how things work in Syria. Even Iran doesn't give their President this kind of power.

So what's next now that Americans no longer have a right to due process before being tortured and assassinated? Do any more rights and freedoms exist that can't be taken away at the whim of the President?
 

WLDB

Senate Member
Jun 24, 2011
6,182
0
36
Ottawa
If this citizen was found guilty in a US Federal Court for Treason (Federal Crime) he'd be ordered executed by a "Firing Squad." There is no doubt he was ordering the killing of US citizens and also descecrating the US Flag. It is still commonplace in the US military. If the young Army member accused of releasing the documnets to Wiki Leaks does get found guilty of Treason , the sentence will be to face a Firing Squad. He too will look like a chunk of Swiss Cheese before burial. There are other US citizens in foreign land that are on a US Black Ops hit list too.

Yes, and thats the way things should be with due process of law. You're charged, tried and if found guilty you pay the legal price. If found not guilty, you're free to go.

Assassinating your own citizens rather than giving them a trial has set a precedent other presidents can use for other purposes. They can kill anyone and say "security threat!" Given the powers the US government now has Im starting to understand why so many Americans dont trust government.
 

WLDB

Senate Member
Jun 24, 2011
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I don't see why citizenship is an issue here. Don't non-citizens have a right to due process?

Not according to most Americans interpretation of the constitution. They look for loop-holes which explains Guantanamo.
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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If I understand the change, the US President can legally order assassinations and justify it as a security issue. Sooner or later this power will be used by a US President to eliminate opposition. Sounds like how things work in Syria. Even Iran doesn't give their President this kind of power.

So what's next now that Americans no longer have a right to due process before being tortured and assassinated? Do any more rights and freedoms exist that can't be taken away at the whim of the President?

Best check up on the Iran statement Buckey.
 

Ocean Breeze

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 5, 2005
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USA #1 USA #1 USA #1 BANG, IT'S LEGAL FOR THE STATE TO MURDER ITS CITIZENS IN THE FREEST COUNTRY ON EARTH. I wonder what democracy means to the average American?

indeed. Must be a unique definition of "democracy" that endorses assassination of its own people. Notice how the US has changed since it decided that using THREATS to security was an excuse to accuse its own people for what ever they define as a threat.

What is hard to understand is that there is hardly any outcry when these statements are made and the new laws are put into effect.

Isn't this how other despot gov't gradually and by using fear of something or another, one threat or another got firmer control over their populations.?

What is a challenge to comprehend is how willing americans are to give up the very freedoms they have been noted for (and admired ) in the name of "national security" and on the grounds of such RADICAL punitive measures.

Is the US making assassinations part of their legal systems?? as in prison, death or assassination being the outcomes of a guilty verdict??

Interesting to note that hi level politicians don't even bother to be subtle about it anymore.

When a country assassinates its own people.......that country has lowered itself to a level of barbabarism not seen in modern times. It is very concerning. When they have no compunction in assassinating their own.....one can only imagine how small an excuse they would need to assassinate folks from other regions. We have already seen that . Assassinations can easily replace due process of the law and reduce a nation to a primitive and barbaric level very quickly.

I don't see why citizenship is an issue here. Don't non-citizens have a right to due process?


seems not. Particularly when their own citizens are losing that right and can be assassinated on some "threat ".

Seems that the reality is: America is becoming everything it claimed it was not and despised in other less progressive nations.

and that is the tragedy of the century.

He was actively engaged in war against the United States. Truthfully I have no problem with his absence of due process.

sorry BOOMer, one cannot be selective in how punishment is given. The law applies to EVERYONE. THat is what differentiates civilized people from uncivilzed. Assassinations of any kind by any one are NOT CIVILIZED . They are a throwback into a darkere and less developed times.
 

Ocean Breeze

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Jun 5, 2005
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War is not civilized.

You got that right. All the more reason NOT TO START them.

War can be described as mass assassination of a population that some power decided to target ....creating a war of choice.
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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You got that right. All the more reason NOT TO START them.

War can be described as mass assassination of a population that some power decided to target ....creating a war of choice.

I recall that you wanted the US to arrest this man in Yemen. is that correct?