Internet Piracy

Adriatik
#1
There has been massive debate over internet "piracy" in the past years...

Face it people, those who download music, videos and applications on the internet will continue to do it. I for one, enjoy getting free music and videos. The internet costs a lot of money so the way I see it, some of what I pay for internet covers the content I download. You may not agree with me but that's tough I guess.

I have no intention to stop downloading free stuff on the internet and I'm laughing because there's not a chance in hell that I'll get caught doing it.

I have saved over 10 000$ in the past years for music and videos. These savings are way to important to stop downloading for free.
 
Scott Free
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#2
Quote: Originally Posted by AdriatikView Post


I have saved over 10 000$ in the past years for music and videos. These savings are way to important to stop downloading for free.

Well now... isn't that a great piece of spin. Were you paid to write that?
 
scratch
#3
Nice,
Scott.
 
Scott Free
Avatar
#4
I object to industry pirating my culture.

Take a song that I might download for example. How much is it really worth? The musician (and I am one) and the record company say it is worth as much as gold and that is to be expected, however lets look at the actual value:

Did the artist make the language it is written in? Did the artist invent the instruments? Did they invent the scales, the theory, the genera, the poetic form, the chord progressions etc? No they didn't.

So what did they invent then? Well, maybe a slightly different variation of what was already there. Popular song writers try and find a universal message in their music, that is, something everyone can relate to. If everyone can relate to it then even the emotional content isn't the artists it is ours and our cultures!

So why is it that I should have to pay such an absurd amount for so little?

The answer is that I don't.

That is why piracy will never go away.

Because the real pirates are the music industry and artists.

If I like an artist I will buy a shirt or go to a show. That is enough; probably more than enough.
 
Said1
#5
I actually got caught downloading a movie- got a warning!
 
Zan
#6
Said1 - how'd you get caught?
 
gerryh
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#7
know what's dumber than doing something you know is illegal? Bragging about doing something illegal on a public internet forum.
 
Scott Free
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#8
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

know what's dumber than doing something you know is illegal? Bragging about doing something illegal on a public internet forum.

It's not illegal in Canada (edit: oops, name calling again) - we aren't Americans
 
Said1
Avatar
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by ZanView Post

Said1 - how'd you get caught?

I'm not sure exactly. I downloaded a movie through Morphius. The next thing I know I have an e-mail from one of the big movie companies asking me to remove it from my hard drive or they would proceed with legal action. I dont know how they would know if I did or not, but I did and never used Morpheus again!
 
Colpy
Avatar
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by Scott FreeView Post

It's not illegal in Canada (edit: oops, name calling again) - we aren't Americans

i think you will find it is very illegal in Canada.....but I could be wrong.....
 
AmberEyes
Avatar
#11
I download music and movies all the time, and don't feel a bit of guilt about it. I come from a very musical family.. many members of which are very successful musicians. From their point of view, as long as people are honestly enjoying their hard work they find that a good enough reward. I can understand how it may be difficult to make a living off of music, but if you're good enough people will pay to hear you perform. Nothing makes me smile more than when I've performed a piece or another (I play piano on occasion and have over 10 years of concert piano training :P ) only to have people compliment me. It's not about whether or not I make money doing it (never have, never will), but whether or not people like it. I can imagine how much better that would feel if the music I played were my own.

Scott Free is right, the real "pirates" are the producers and musicians that charge ridiculous amounts of money for art. Art is culture... shouldn't that be free?
 
Scott Free
Avatar
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

i think you will find it is very illegal in Canada.....but I could be wrong.....

Distributing is illegal. Downloading is not.

There have been two cases brought before the supreme court of Ontario now and both were thrown out. We still have fair use in Canada - though Harper is about to change that.
 
scratch
#13
Is there any way that we can get rid of this moron?
 
DurkaDurka
Avatar
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by AdriatikView Post

There has been massive debate over internet "piracy" in the past years...

Face it people, those who download music, videos and applications on the internet will continue to do it. I for one, enjoy getting free music and videos. The internet costs a lot of money so the way I see it, some of what I pay for internet covers the content I download. You may not agree with me but that's tough I guess.

I have no intention to stop downloading free stuff on the internet and I'm laughing because there's not a chance in hell that I'll get caught doing it.

I have saved over 10 000$ in the past years for music and videos. These savings are way to important to stop downloading for free.

Paying for a communication service does not entitle you to copyrighted works. I'm far from a saint when it comes to downloading pirated whatever but I don't delude my self into think I am owed it because I pay for my internet. Your logic is pretty messed up.

You realize your ISP will terminate your service if they get complaints from the copyright holders? These companies actively pursue downloaders via companies like media Sentry, which have various ways of busting the average idiot.

You didn't save any money as you probably would have never bought those songs/movies games etc. Did you spend tens of thousands of dollars previously on goods likw that prior to stealing them?
 
DurkaDurka
Avatar
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by ZanView Post

Said1 - how'd you get caught?

media entry, I imagine. They will connect to torrent swarms and take note of IP's offering complete versions of songs/movies/games etc. Then they look up who owns the IP address (rogers, bell etc) and send a cease and desist letter which your ISP will forward to you.
 
Zan
Avatar
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by Said1View Post

I'm not sure exactly. I downloaded a movie through Morphius. The next thing I know I have an e-mail from one of the big movie companies asking me to remove it from my hard drive or they would proceed with legal action. I dont know how they would know if I did or not, but I did and never used Morpheus again!

yikes - I've never heard of that happening to anyone before. Glad it was just a warning.
 
fubbleskag
#17
scratch, you could vote him out - call me old fashioned.
 
DurkaDurka
Avatar
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by Scott FreeView Post

It's not illegal in Canada (edit: oops, name calling again) - we aren't Americans

Actually it is. The only grey area has to deal with music due to the tarrif we pay on recordable media which is then distributed to Canadian music publishers. Downloading software and movies is not legal in any way.
 
DurkaDurka
Avatar
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by AmberEyesView Post

Scott Free is right, the real "pirates" are the producers and musicians that charge ridiculous amounts of money for art. Art is culture... shouldn't that be free?

Blaming the artists is kinda silly in my opinon, they are slaves to their recording contract. It's not like the artists dictate what the retail cost is.
 
Zan
Avatar
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by DurkaDurkaView Post

media entry, I imagine. They will connect to torrent swarms and take note of IP's offering complete versions of songs/movies/games etc. Then they look up who owns the IP address (rogers, bell etc) and send a cease and desist letter which your ISP will forward to you.

Thanks for explaining that Durka, I'm going to forward this info to someone I know who downloads quite a bit. I knew the penalties can be pretty stiff *if* you get caught, but I've never actually heard of anyone getting caught before.
 
Scott Free
Avatar
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by ZanView Post

yikes - I've never heard of that happening to anyone before. Glad it was just a warning.

I have. I know one person that was downloading so much he had to get a commercial account for the extra bandwidth. He was warned many times and ignored it. He knew ISPs don't go after commercial accounts - they don't even monitor them. They will close a distributer though since that is illegal.
 
DurkaDurka
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#22
Check out Michael Geist's blog, he is considered an expert on law pertaining to online copyright --
 
Zan
#23
... what about stuff that originally aired on TV - is that off limits too?
 
Scott Free
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#24
Quote: Originally Posted by DurkaDurkaView Post

Downloading software and movies is not legal in any way.

Not legal but not illegal which is why cases keep getting thrown out of court. It is a case of fair use.
 
fubbleskag
Avatar
#25
Two contrary claims of fact, and not a single source cited. Tsk tsk.

Edit: My apologies Durka, I missed your link to Mr. Geist's blog; perhaps not a traditional source to cite in itself, but I bet Mr. Geist provides plenty of them.
 
DurkaDurka
Avatar
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by ZanView Post

... what about stuff that originally aired on TV - is that off limits too?

Technically, it's illegal, whether it is enforced or not I haven't a clue

You should read the copyright bill that Harper tried to table last spring...
 
Scott Free
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by DurkaDurkaView Post

Technically, it's illegal, whether it is enforced or not I haven't a clue

Which is why cases are constantly thrown out of court.
 
Scott Free
Avatar
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by fubbleskagView Post

Two contrary claims of fact, and not a single source cited. Tsk tsk.

--

Downloading copyrighted music from peer-to-peer networks is legal in Canada, although uploading files is not, Canadian copyright regulators said in a ruling released Friday.

In the same --, the Copyright Board of Canada imposed a government fee of as much as $25 on iPod-like MP3 players, putting the devices in the same category as audio tapes and blank CDs. The money collected from levies on "recording mediums" goes into a fund to pay musicians and songwriters for revenues lost from consumers' personal copying. Manufacturers are responsible for paying the fees and often pass the cost on to consumers.



The peer-to-peer component of the decision was prompted by questions from consumer and entertainment groups about ambiguous elements of Canadian law. Previously, most analysts had said uploading was illegal but that --.



"As far as computer hard drives are concerned, we say that for the time being, it is still legal," said Claude Majeau, secretary general of the Copyright Board.



The decision is likely to ruffle feathers on many sides, from consumer-electronics sellers worried about declining sales to international entertainment companies worried about the spread of peer-to-peer networks.



Copyright holder groups such as the Recording Industry Association of America (--) had already been critical of Canada's copyright laws, in large part because the country has not instituted provisions similar to those found in the --. One portion of that law makes it illegal to break, or to distribute tools for breaking, digital copy protection mechanisms, such as the technology used to protect DVDs from piracy.



A lawyer for the Canadian record industry's trade association said the group still believed downloading was illegal, despite the decision.



"Our position is that under Canadian law, downloading is also prohibited," said Richard Pfohl, general counsel for the Canadian Recording Industry Association. "This is the opinion of the Copyright Board, but Canadian courts will decide this issue."



In its decision Friday, the Copyright Board said uploading or distributing copyrighted works online appeared to be prohibited under current Canadian law.



However, the country's copyright law does allow making a copy for personal use and does not address the source of that copy or whether the original has to be an authorized or noninfringing version, the board said.



Under those laws, certain media are designated as appropriate for making personal copies of music, and producers pay a per-unit fee into a pool designed to compensate musicians and songwriters. Most audio tapes and CDs, and now MP3 players, are included in that category. Other mediums, such as DVDs, are not deemed appropriate for personal copying.
Computer hard drives have never been reviewed under that provision, however. In its decision Friday, the board decided to allow personal copies on a hard drive until a fee ruling is made specifically on that medium or until the courts or legislature tell regulators to rule otherwise.



"Until such time, as a decision is made on hard drives, for the time being, (we are ruling) in favor of consumers," Majeau said.
Legal analysts said that courts would likely rule on the file-swapping issue later, despite Friday's opinion.
"I think it is pretty significant," Michael Geist, a law professor at the University of Ottawa, said. "It's not that the issue is resolved...I think that sooner or later, courts will sound off on the issue. But one thing they will take into consideration is the Copyright Board ruling."



Friday's decision will also impose a substantial surcharge on hard drive-based music players such as -- or the new Samsung Napster player for the first time. MP3 players with up to 10GB of memory will have an added levy of $15 added to their price, while larger players will see $25 added on top of the wholesale price.



MP3 players with less than 1GB of memory will have only a $2 surcharge added to their cost.



With a population of about 31 million people, Canada is approximately one-tenth the size of the United States. But Canadians are relatively heavy users of high-speed Internet connections, which make it easy to download music files. About 4.1 million Canadians were using a broadband connection at home as of the end of June 2003, according to U.K.-based research firm Point Topic. By comparison, U.S. cable and DSL (digital subscriber line) subscribers totaled 22.7 million at the end of September, according to Leichtman Research Group.



Canada has already raised the hackles of some copyright holders through its reluctance to enact measures that significantly expand digital copyright protection, as the controversial Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) has done in the United States. As a result, Canada could become a model for countries seeking to find a balance between protecting copyright holders' rights and providing consumers with more liberal rights to copyrighted works. For now, it remains unclear how other countries might be influenced by Friday's ruling.



Geist said he believes the tariff decision could be just the tip of the iceberg for hardware makers, as Canadian regulators grapple with the full implications of the policy. Other devices, including PCs, may eventually be brought under the tariff scheme, he predicted.



"Given that they've made a strong stand on (peer-to-peer matters), if the policy remains the same, there's little choice but to move ahead on personal computers," Geist said.



However, a representative of the Canadian Private Copying Collective (CPCC), the group of music copyright holders that typically petitions for new media types to be added to the list, said computers were not on its agenda.



"We have never sought a levy on computer hard drives and do not intend to do so in the future," Lucie Beaucheni, vice chair of the CPCC, said.



Source at top.
 
Adriatik
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by DurkaDurkaView Post

Paying for a communication service does not entitle you to copyrighted works. I'm far from a saint when it comes to downloading pirated whatever but I don't delude my self into think I am owed it because I pay for my internet. Your logic is pretty messed up.

You realize your ISP will terminate your service if they get complaints from the copyright holders? These companies actively pursue downloaders via companies like media Sentry, which have various ways of busting the average idiot.

You didn't save any money as you probably would have never bought those songs/movies games etc. Did you spend tens of thousands of dollars previously on goods likw that prior to stealing them?


Whether or not it's copyrighted or not, I'm not redistributing the material. I am keeping it for me. Even if I have the material, try finding the hard drive I store it on, try finding where I downloaded it from. What if I wasn't using my ISP connection to download all the content? The reality is that no one will take the time and pay the money that's required to trace me for having 1 copy of their material.

The record producers are the ones making massive profits so I don't fill one ounce of guilt.

And when I say that I pay for my internet and all, what I mean is that I pay money to have FULL access to the Internet and all its content. So by paying a fee for Internet, I am ENTITLED to all its accessible content.
 
DurkaDurka
Avatar
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by Scott FreeView Post

Not legal but not illegal which is why cases keep getting thrown out of court. It is a case of fair use.

Fair use primarily has to do with material you own or for rfesearch purposes. I don't believe theft is covered.

Here is a slideshow from Michael Geist about "Fair Dealing" in Canada
--

--

It then establishes six principal criteria for evaluating fair dealing.
  1. The Purpose of the Dealing Is it for research, private study, criticism, review or news reporting? It expresses that "these allowable purposes should not be given a restrictive interpretation or this could result in the undue restriction of users' rights."
  2. The Character of the Dealing How were the works dealt with? Was there a single copy or were multiple copies made? Were these copies distributed widely or to a limited group of people? Was the copy destroyed after its purpose was accomplished? What are the normal practices of the industry?
  3. The Amount of the Dealing How much of the work was used? What was the importance of the infringed work? Quoting trivial amounts may alone sufficiently establish fair dealing. In some cases even quoting the entire work may be fair dealing.
  4. Alternatives to the Dealing Was a "non-copyrighted equivalent of the work" available to the user? Could the work have been properly criticized without being copied?
  5. The Nature of the Work Copying from a work that has never been published could be more fair than from a published work "in that its reproduction with acknowledgement could lead to a wider public dissemination of the work - one of the goals of copyright law. If, however, the work in question was confidential, this may tip the scales towards finding that the dealing was unfair."
  6. Effect of the Dealing on the Work Is it likely to affect the market of the original work? "Although the effect of the dealing on the market of the copyright owner is an important factor, it is neither the only factor nor the most important factor that a court must consider in deciding if the dealing is fair." A statement that a dealing infringes may not be sufficient, but evidence will often be required.
 

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